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Thread: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

  1. #361
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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    The 8th Bauble is beginning to feel like too much air. Experimenting with replacing it with a 3rd Recruiter.
    What about a MB Engineered Explosives?

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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Manroe View Post
    What about a MB Engineered Explosives?

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    It's generally been awkward as a reactive card in a combo deck with a very finite supply of natural colored mana, and plenty of 0-Cost artifacts and tokens of its own, but testing never hurts.

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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Tamura Hajime came in 10th at Eternal Weekend Japan with the following list:

    -------------------------------------------------


    3《オーリオックの廃品回収者/Auriok Salvagers》
    2《練達飛行機械職人、サイ/Sai, Master Thopterist》
    4《歩行バリスタ/Walking Ballista》

    4《オパールのモックス/Mox Opal》
    4《ライオンの瞳のダイアモンド/Lion's Eye Diamond》
    4《虚空の杯/Chalice of the Void》
    4《ディミーアの印鑑/Dimir Signet》
    4《アンティキティー戦争/The Antiquities War》
    4《直観/Intuition》
    1《アズカンタの探索/Search for Azcanta》
    3《ウルザの後継、カーン/Karn, Scion of Urza》
    1《掘葬の儀式/Unburial Rites》
    1《木端+微塵/Cut+Ribbons》
    1《Lodestone Bauble》

    4《古えの居住地/Ancient Den》
    4《教議会の座席/Seat of the Synod》
    4《古えの墳墓/Ancient Tomb》
    4《空僻地/Glimmervoid》
    3《裏切り者の都/City of Traitors》
    1《産業の塔/Spire of Industry》

    サイドボード
    1《孤独の都/City of Solitude》
    4《虚空の力線/Leyline of the Void》
    2《Helm of Obedience》
    2《仕組まれた爆薬/Engineered Explosives》
    1《古えの遺恨/Ancient Grudge》
    1《仕組まれた疫病/Engineered Plague》
    1《天啓の光/Ray of Revelation》
    1《罠の橋/Ensnaring Bridge》
    1《窒息/Choke》
    1《魔術遠眼鏡/Sorcerous Spyglass》

    -------------------------------------------------

    This list is pretty interesting. Reminds me a little of the historic lists some pages back, as well as Bahra's Artifact Control brews. Without Monastery Mentor increasing the value of Salvagers, the fact that it still includes Sai is a particularly bold choice.

    Glimmervoid to help support Choke, Ancient Grudge ... City of Solitude? Only 1 Bauble - Intuition - Unburial Rites? - Very spicy all the way around.

  4. #364

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    No one man should have so much spice. My lord. I don't even know how they do it. It's like a top-down vs bottom-up deckbuilding philosophical paradigm shift that's instilled at birth.

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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    So only been testing it for two weeks, but -1 Bauble +1 Recruiter to up the creature count to 18 seems to be a positive change in the Humans list, bringing me to


    4x Monastery Mentor
    4x Auriok Salvager
    4x Dark Confidant
    3x Imperial Recruiter
    2x Trinket Mage
    1x Walking Ballista

    4x Chalice of the Void
    4x Lion's Eye Diamond
    4x Mox Opal
    4x Lotus Petal
    4x Urza's Bauble
    2x Mishra's Bauble
    1x Lodestone Bauble

    4x Unclaimed Territory
    4x Cavern of Souls
    4x Ancient Tomb
    3x City of Traitors
    2x Remote Farm
    1x Spire of Industry
    1x Inventors' Fair

    SB:

    3x Quicksmith Rebel
    3x Sanctum Prelate
    2x Manic Vandal
    2x Warping Wail
    1x Venser, Shaper Savant
    1x Containment Priest
    1x Tormod's Crypt
    1x Sorcerous Spyglass
    1x Surge Node


    Current most suspect card is the 2nd Warping Wail, so I may experiment with some other cards in that slot.

    Wish I could squeeze a decent recurring looting effect in the maindeck even as just a 5th Confidant, but I've goldfished some experiments along those lines in a draw simulator and it's always been awkward.

    I also may want to test - 1 Mishra's B. +1 Lodestone B. The initial Lodestone Bauble was a concession to the need for Trinket Mage to fetch a mana spout that won instantly while also turning on an Opal, with the ability to bypass Glacial Chasm / Leyline of Sanctity purely as a bonus. That need is met by only the first inclusion, but with respect to balancing the 1 mana with the extra turn of clock I don't have the experience to be confident that only 1 copy is correct. I suspect it is, but I haven't actually experimented with a 2nd.

    Nothing anywhere near as spicy as the Japanese list, but if anyone wants to try the Japanese list, I'd be curious to hear if the Unburial Rites is anything more than cute.

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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    It's generally been awkward as a reactive card in a combo deck with a very finite supply of natural colored mana, and plenty of 0-Cost artifacts and tokens of its own, but testing never hurts.
    I run two main. I previously only ran one, but I find it to be highly effective at removing hate that might impede us, such as main deck pithing needle or a revoker. It is also a "free" prowess trigger in a pinch and provides a way to wipe the board (removing all permanents on 1, 2, 3 and 5) if it is not possible to win immediately. EE is one of the only ways to catch back up if we are behind in certain matchups. Running at least one is a great idea for two-color, non-human builds because there is more reliable colored mana available.

  7. #367

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    GP Richmond report:

    4 Ancient Den
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 City of Traitors
    2 Karakas
    1 Plains
    4 Auriok Salvagers
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Karn, Scion of Urza
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 Lodestone Bauble
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Mishra's Bauble
    4 Monastery Mentor
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Urza's Bauble
    4 Walking Ballista

    Sideboard:
    3 Aura of Silence
    3 Containment Priest
    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    3 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Tormod's Crypt

    The list hasn't changed much recently (the maindeck not at all) although I've spent the last couple months trying lots of things leading up to the GP. The latest change was swapping 2 Seal of Cleansing and the Disenchant/Cast Out slot for 3 Aura of Silence. I'm even worse against opposing Chalice decks with this change (costing 1 more AND needing double white) but these matchups were so bad that I'm fine planning to dodge chalices and increasing my power level vs the remaining field.
    Aura fills the same role as Seal - handling Needle effects, equipment, Eidolons, and RiP/Leyline, and also comes in vs Chalice despite the note above. It also makes all of those things cost more to play while taxing lots of random other things too... 4-mana Baleful Strixes aren't nearly as good. My favorite interaction has been making Engineered Explosives on 0 next to impossible to play - a card that was previously a huge blowout in their favor. The 3cmc makes Aura more likely than a Seal to resolve through a Counterbalance.

    So yeah, trading points vs MonoR Stompy, Steel Stompy, and Aggro Loam for points vs Grixis Control and Miracles. I think Eldrazi stays pretty much unchanged since they're still very dead to Ensnaring Bridge. Looking back at what I played, what my friends played, and the published lists, this was definitely the right call. (I didn't see a single MonoR, Steel Stompy, or Aggro Loam anywhere near me).


    R1 Burn
    Game 1 I get Chalice on 1 then Chalice on 2. Karnstructs then wall his creatures until I have enough to start attacking with them. On the last two turns I decide to do nothing with Karn, rather than +1 and reveal more cards to my opponent.
    +2 Swords to Plowshares
    +3 Aura of Silence (Answers to Eidolon and boarded-in Pyrostatic Pillars)
    -1 Ancient Tomb (I shave an Ancient Tomb in this matchup because you can't win if you draw and have to use 2 of them)
    -2 Urza's Bauble
    -1 Lodestone Bauble (I don't like this as a win-con since they can draw their deck and fire off their Lightning Bolts, PoP's, and Fireblasts with lethal bauble triggers on the stack)
    -1 Monastery Mentor
    Game 2 he curves out while I have a Swords to Plowshares that can't kill an Eidolon while I have Chalice on 1 in play
    Game 3 he has an Eidolon and a Goblin Guide in play, and is tapped out (2 mountains) and missed his 3rd land drop. I have Ballista with 1 counter, 2 LED's, and a Petal in play while I'm at 16.
    I tapout my lands to play Salvagers with his most likely interaction being Fireblast. I figure, if I go for it and Salvagers get killed in response to targeting an LED, I'll crack the other LED, target it, have 2 floating, Salvagers dies, replay both LED's (go to 12 on Eidolon triggers), crack both (8 floating) to pump Ballista to 3/3. That gives me a creature that safely blocks or can remove Eidolon on demand, while he has no lands.
    My opponent tanks and then ultimately Fireblasts the Ballista. Ballista grows, kills Eidolon on his way out, and then we combo.
    (1-0)

    R2 Burn
    Game 1 goes the same as Game 1 above, 2 Chalices and beatdown.
    same SB plan as above
    Game 2 an Aura of Silence makes him pay 4 for an Eidolon before killing said Eidolon so that I can keep digging with baubles, but can't stablize or find the combo before getting burned out.
    Game 3 an Aura of Silence picks off a Pyrostatic Pillar so I can combo off.
    (2-0)

    I'm hopeful I've played my way out of the burn bracket since it's not a matchup I like even though I'm not sure who is favored, if anyone even is favored.

    R3 Sneak and Show
    Game 1 I combo with Lodestone Bauble and loop 100 times. This ended up being a mistake in that my opponent then spent ten minutes trying not to die to the triggers in his upkeep by drawing down to 3 cards, Brainstorming Emrakuls to his library, having his own counter war then Intuitioning to get the reshuffle. He was ultimately no where close to being able to survive 100 bauble triggers, but it was close enough for him to waste both our time... I'll be naming a million in the future.
    +3 Containment Priest
    +2 Ensnaring Bridge
    +3 Aura of Silence
    -4 Monastery Mentor
    -4 Karn, Scion of Urza
    Game 2 I forget to attack once with my Containment Priest (the first turn it could've attacked) and I eventually lose to Arcane Aritsan when they're at 2. It could've mattered, but the opponent isn't going from 2 to 0 with his Ancient Tomb (he went from 4 to 2 this game from his Ancient Tomb) so I'm unsure if I cost myself the game. Definitely a mistake though.
    Game 3 we're both playing rushed because of the huge time-waste from game 1. I remember wanting to bring Mentors back in for game 3 on the play but instead didn't reSB. I got turn-1'd, Show into Omniscience into Griselbrand into draw 7 into Emrakul.
    (2-1)

    R4 Grixis Delver
    Game 1 I lose a grindy game in which he had the necesary answers while a turn-1 delver beats down each turn.
    +2 Swords to Plowshares
    +2 Ensnaring Bridge
    -1 Monastery Mentor
    -1 Karn, Scion of Urza
    -1 Lion's Eye Diamond
    -1 Auriok Salvagers
    It's pretty obvious I don't know the best way to board here. Shaving 4 drops vs Wastelands makes sense, and then also hedging vs Dread of Night by shaving a Mentor, and hedging vs discard+Surgical by shaving an LED. Yeah, I'm still not sure how to board this matchup, but this is what I did.
    Game 2 I quickly start to feel demoralized as he has another perfect start and I'm resigned to going to 2-2 in the tournament, but am able to draw lands to rebound from the multiple Wastelands, and after a couple resolved Karns later, I've managed to even the match.
    Game 3 is when he finally has a mediocre draw and spends his turns cantripping into lands and cantrips. I end up swarming with monks for the match.
    (3-1)

    R5 Sneak and Show
    Game 1 I manage to steal after they Show in an Omniscience, draw down to 6 life but can't find an Emrakul. My Chalice on 1 stops him from cantripping and Karakas stops Griselbrand from dealing damage and letting him draw 7 again. I get 2 Karnstructs to 6 power and can then use the Karakas on my turn after blocks to stop the lifegain from blocking 1 and the other squeaking through for lethal.
    Same +/- as R3
    Game 2 I mulligan to a 5 with Bridge and combo pieces but only 1 land. I play out 2 LEDs (I don't have Mentors in the deck). He casts Sneak Attack with a Lotus Petal but doesn't have any more red. I pass and he follows up with a Show and Tell. I think for a minute and decide to put in Salvagers. He puts in Griselbrand and draws 7 once (he had used Tomb a couple times and didn't want to go to 2 I guess). He didn't find Petal AND Emrakul because he passes. I draw a City of Traitors, play it and lead on Bridge to bait a counterspell, a FoW putting him at 8. Then I crack an LED, target it with with Salvagers and he draws another 7 (down to 1 life). He Echoing Truths my Salvagers, and I crack the other LED (now 4 floating). Echo resovles, LED comes to hand, play it and Salvagers and combo him -- he had the second FoW, but couldn't cast it at 1 life.
    (4-1)

    R6 Death and Taxes
    Game 1 I have one of those draws that mimics Eldrazi and he plays a Prelate choosing 2 (whew! Crisis averted!). The game takes 30 mintues as he's activating 3 Ports on my upkeep and later has 3 Revokers in play naming LED, Walking Ballista, and Karn. He also has the StP for a Mentor every time I find and play one, but the monks and worthless Ballistas let me chump his Mirran Crusader equipped with SoFaI. Eventually he finds a flier and the game ends immediately.
    +2 Swords to Plowshares
    +3 Aura of Silence
    +3 Containment Priest (this seems mediocre, but shutting off their instant speed interaction means StP is the only not-in-play way to answer the combo. It also shuts off Recruiter/Flickerwisp loops)
    -4 Chalice of the Void
    -2 Auriok Salvagers
    -2 Lion's Eye Diamond (Karns and Mentors and Ballistas are so good in the matchup, while comboing is difficult enough that I think shaving combo is correct. I wouldn't fault you if you wanted to cut all the LEDs and keep Salvagers, or 3/1 split, but I like still having the possibility of comboing in SB games)
    Game 2 I mulligan to oblivion. :(
    (4-2)

    R7 Turbo Depths
    Game 1 He shreds my hand and I die to a 20/20 in short order.
    +2 Swords to Plowshares
    +2 Ensnaring Bridge
    +3 Aura of Silence
    +2 Tormod's Crypt (I don't know his deck well, but brought these in to protect myself from Surgical Extractions I figured he would have as they would be very good against me with all the discard)
    -4 Monastery Mentor
    -4 Karn, Scion of Urza
    -1 Cavern of Souls
    Game 2 I'm able to buy a turn by killing a Vampire Hexmage with a Ballista and then I slow combo, drawing down to 4 cards left in my library. Down to 3 after my draw for turn, and then I'm in this recurring awkard position of having to slow-roll my opponent while I try to play around anything ticky... it usually goes: play your Petals, play Opals one at a time, putting Chalices into play on the numbers that might matter, and also getting a small Walking Ballista into play (you can also play another Salvagers here if you need to after a slow combo turn, and you can replay it with Cavern too if that matters). But he doesn't have anything and just wanted to the information.
    Game 3 I mulligan into a great hand that's just a little light on mana. I have an Aura of Silence but after he gets a Needle in play naming Salvagers (he recognized earlier that Lodestone Bauble is also a win-con on combo tunrs). I don't know if the Aura of Silence prevented any more needle effects, or if he didn't have any, but I draw the missing lands and then topdeck a Salvagers for the win.
    (5-2)

    R8 Sneak and Show
    Game 1 I steal another pre-board game vs Sneak and Show with a Karakas and Karnstructs.
    Game 2 a quick loss to Sneak Attack after having a Bridge countered. I also saw a Wipe Away off a bauble, so he's not dead to a Bridge + Chalice on 2 like most Sneak and Show players are.
    Game 3 my early Containment Priest is answered by an Abrade, but otherwise he's just cantripping while I'm slowtripping. I have about 7 draws over 3 turns that just need to find a Salvagers (I have the Cavern on Human already) but cannot before he finds the extra red mana (or Bloodmoon would've done it) to double activate Sneak to get his Emrakul through my Karakas. Dead. Top card is Salvages. I am sad.
    (5-3)

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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by f7eleven View Post
    Game 1 I combo with Lodestone Bauble and loop 100 times. This ended up being a mistake in that my opponent then spent ten minutes trying not to die to the triggers in his upkeep by drawing down to 3 cards, Brainstorming Emrakuls to his library, having his own counter war then Intuitioning to get the reshuffle. He was ultimately no where close to being able to survive 100 bauble triggers, but it was close enough for him to waste both our time... I'll be naming a million in the future.
    I had never actually seen nor thought of this particular interaction being attempted. Thank you for the lesson.

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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy



    So I feel like further brewing here might be a little hasty until we see exactly what this card does to the format.

  10. #370

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    So I feel like further brewing here might be a little hasty until we see exactly what this card does to the format.
    Probably bad for us? Seems like turbo-xerox will come back since 3+ cmc permanents are bad again. Except we can't capitalize on that with our Chalices since there'll be more BUG decks with Trophy/Decay main.

    Finally got around to testing Magus of the Balance last night, but bad luck (and 1 misplay) put me at 2-2 for the night.

    List:

    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Urza's Bauble
    4 Mishra's Bauble
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Lodestone Bauble
    4 Walking Ballista
    4 Auriok Salvagers
    4 Monastery Mentor
    1 Magus of the Balance
    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 City of Traitors
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Plains
    2 Karakas
    2 Inventors' Fair
    2 Karn, Scion of Urza

    Sideboard:
    2 Tormod's Crypt
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Containment Priest
    2 Sanctum Prelate
    1 Magus of the Balance
    1 Cast Out
    2 Seal of Cleansing
    3 Swords to Plowshares

    R1: BANT TNN/KoTR 1-0

    pretty easy 2 games, I t1 ballista a bop, and then race a tnn with mentor & friends, in the other game I comboed off unopposed

    R2: "Earth Miracles" aka astral slide 2-0

    astral slide + sundial of the infinite is a sweet combo -- he also had lightning rift. g1 he slide + sundial exiled my salvagers, but that tapped him out and i topdecked an LED to go along with a 2nd salvagers under Karn to win. Which is lucky since I don't think the deck can realistically win vs slide + sundial preboard. g2 i cast t2 karn and started downticking but he pressured me with a flickerwisp putting me to 5 before he had to start chumping my karnstructs + mentor beats -- he was digging for terminus but didnt find it

    R3: RUG Delver 2-1

    When the deck stumbles, RUG delver can capitalize hard. Mulliganed all 3 games, and just kept bricking at all the wrong times. Drew a bunch of lands, never really saw any threats, and baubles all drew into nothing. Sad times.

    R4: Storm 2-2

    Mulliganed all 3 games again, and sadly punted g1. Got a t2 chalice on 1, but was trying to find a threat to close out the game and baubled him when my board was opal/tomb/fair/plains/bauble/chalice. The bauble and next 2 drawsteps whiffed on artifacts so I couldn't activate my fair to go get/cast a chalice on 2 and really seal up the game. This let him go cabal rit -> ad naus and he was able to find a bunch of LEDs/Infernal Tutors to win.

    G2 was easy with chalice on 1 into t2 mentor & friends. hard to lose that

    g3 again had chalice on t1 mentor on t2 but eot hurkyls into a ad naus ended my night

    ---

    I only cast Magus of the Balance once and that was g1 vs Storm. Had I untapped with it it would've been pretty decent to mind twist him, but that would've also wiped out my clock. I would've liked to have tested it more, but like AR said, the meta is about to shift so it's probably time to put this deck down again for a bit. Cheers!

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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaono View Post
    Probably bad for us?
    Quite bad. It's instant speed removal for Salvagers (presumably placed on the stack after we discard our hand) that gets around Chalice on 1 and also can Ghost Quarter us. If the card becomes prevalent, there's no way I see it not affecting any optimized build in this archetype. The silver lining is that if it becomes a common staple, it likely shifts the format in a direction that's good for us with respect to other decks, but even that doesn't really make up for how strongly it shifts the BUG matchups towards the opponent.

    What role at what prominence the card ends up having in the format I certainly can't say, but I'm already stockpiling a list of everything I can think of that answers it with any efficiency empty-handed, and identifying which slots main and side are the most expendable to concessions to this card. I feel like it's just wait-and-see at this point, and then figuring out the best way to adapt.

    It is undoubtedly net bad-news, however.

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