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Thread: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

  1. #221

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by maxtopig View Post
    The big issue I've been facing in recent testing is STILL the Sneak & Show matchup, which inevitably seems to take Game 1 (barring a FAST combo on our part, which they can normally stop with plenty of counter magic) then fights through at least one hate piece post-board. I'm still running a single Karakas main, and that's far and away the best draw we have against them, it seems. I may consider going up an additional one in the board, though the numbers are already feel pretty tight!
    Weird, how are you guys side boarding? I've yet to lose the S&S MU and my opponents tend to think its unwinnable. Chalice shuts off cantrips and spyglass hoses sneak attack. S&T helps us combo off without mana to cast salvagers the turn after too, plus we have 1 or 2 Karakas MB. :S Also, kitesail freebooter comes down turn 1 or 2 to take half of their combo piece. Maybe I've been lucky in my small sample size but have gone 2-0 against that deck more than a handful of times.

  2. #222

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by hofzge View Post
    This has been exactly my experience. Locally we have multiple people who sometimes play S&S and that is why I still have 2 Oring in the board despite them being worse than seal of Cleansing in most other matchups. Sanctum Prelate is nice, but against many decks he is slow due to WW in the casting cost. I lost to storm last week and I feel there he is a mediocre replacement for canonist even if once he is in play a lot is good (the way to get there is very hard especially with a perceived change to more TES).
    I think Sanctum is more than just "nice". Prelate + Chalice makes us less prone to Hurkyl's Recall which is otherwise a complete blowout (getting lands bounced is... Sad). Prelate also is a very relevant card vs. S&T unlike Canonist. Also note that with the mono-White mana base the issues with its casting cost is remedied quite a bit. Opal is actually stellar in terms of letting us get it out on turn two despite it not being Ancient Tomb-able.

    Quote Originally Posted by mambosong View Post
    Weird, how are you guys side boarding? I've yet to lose the S&S MU and my opponents tend to think its unwinnable. Chalice shuts off cantrips and spyglass hoses sneak attack. S&T helps us combo off without mana to cast salvagers the turn after too, plus we have 1 or 2 Karakas MB. :S Also, kitesail freebooter comes down turn 1 or 2 to take half of their combo piece. Maybe I've been lucky in my small sample size but have gone 2-0 against that deck more than a handful of times.
    Yeah, I think S&T is a fine matchup - I'd prefer to play it than against Storm. Pre-board I feel we are unfavoured (as most Stompy decks are) but between Prelate, Containment Priest, Spyglass and ORing effects we tend to have a lot against them post-board. And yes, be ready to put Salvagers in resp. to Show & Tell and combo off the next turn!
    Writing:

    Also podcast with Stevestamopz and Speedbump_NZ on The Salt Mine.

  3. #223

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Report from yesterday... 3-1 again, losing in the final round. Can't get that clean sweep!

    4 Monastery Mentor
    4 Auriok Salvagers
    4 Walking Ballista

    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Mishra's Bauble
    4 Urza's Bauble
    1 Lodestone Bauble
    1 Engineered Explosives
    3 Karn, Scion of Urza

    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 City of Traitors
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Ancient Den
    1 Inventors' Fair
    3 Plains

    Sideboard
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Sanctum Prelate
    2 Seal of Cleansing
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    2 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Cast Out
    1 Engineered Explosives
    3 Swords to Plowshares

    Round 1: Czech Pile

    Game 1: I think I got Hymned, forced him to burn a Force on my Mentor. I played a Salvagers, it got Edicted. I found a Chalice and set it to two to stop the Snapcaster Mage into Edict for another Salvagers I had. I then comboed out.

    -2 Lion's Eye Diamond
    -4 Chalice of the Void
    -1 Lodestone Bauble
    +2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    +3 Swords to Plowshares
    +1 Cast Out
    +1 Engineered Explosives

    Game 2: He opens I Deathrite, I Spyglass the Deathrite. I have another Spyglass and hit the leftover fetch in his hand. He has Sylvan Library going though, so I get a bit down on cards comparatively, but his low life total starts to make Mentor look menacing. The Mentor gets killed at some stage though (or countered, can't remember). My Spyglass on DRS gets blown up at some stage and my life total is being pressured... But I end up again topdecking Salvagers with LED on the table and pseudo-combo out, drawing my whole deck and having mana up to Plow his DRS on his upkeep. I also could've done some fancier stuff - upkeep crack LED on the table, draw deck, Cast Out the Library and Plow DRS to really cut off his outs. Anyway, topdeck Salvagers gets there.

    Round 2: BUG Control

    Game 1: I remember this being quite close with TNN and Strix pressuring a Karn, who drew a fair amount of cards, giving me an LED (my opponent had choice between LED and Mentor, gave me LED) until Karn died. At some stage I found a Ballista to blow up the board of Strix and DRS. Eventually though, although my life total dwindled because TNN, I found the combo and Ballistaed my opponent to death.

    -2 Lion's Eye Diamond
    -4 Chalice of the Void
    -1 Lodestone Bauble
    +2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    +3 Swords to Plowshares
    +1 Cast Out
    +1 Engineered Explosives

    Game 2: Similar to game 1, my opponent burns a lot of resources countering Karn, Mentor etc. but I have double Salvagers in hand ready to combo. Turns out he draws bricks after all his FoWs and therefore I combo out freely.

    Round 3: Punishing Maverick

    Game 1: Is disgusting! I have a Chalice on one into a Mentor into a lot of trinkets into Karn into more trinkets and then my opponent is dead. My opponent had a Mother of Runes and Hierarch to show for his efforts. Maybe a different story if he had PFire and not Plow for the Mentor, as Chalice surprisingly did work.

    -4 Chalice of the Void
    -2 Lion's Eye Diamond
    -1 Lodestone Bauble
    +3 Swords to Plowshares
    +2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    +1 Engineered Explosives
    +1 Cast Out

    This sideboarding is looking pretty common...

    Game 2: A massive slugfest, with my Mentors being checked by PFires, my opponent's Library and SFM blown up by an EE and a SoLaS that SFM found checked by an Inventors' Fair tutored Sorcerous Spyglass. I started to take over the game with Karn, but screwed up by ticking him down and playing my Mentor into a Plow I knew... The Plow got my opponent back both his PFires to kill my Karn. Anyway, eventually I comboed out and killed my opponent. Phew.

    Round 4: Grixis Delver

    Game 1: I'm on the draw, keep a turn two Mentor hand with the turn three Salvagers. This cannot beat my opponent's turn two TNN. I'm realising more and more we're super soft to that card - Holy Light is looking appealing... I think I definitely should've mulliganed my hand though. It's just too slow.

    -2 Lion's Eye Diamond
    -1 Lodestone Bauble
    +2 Swords to Plowshares
    +1 Engineered Explosives

    I think this is wrong. I should've done this:

    -2 Lion's Eye Diamond
    -1 Lodestone Bauble
    -1 Karn, Scion of Urza
    +3 Swords to Plowshares
    +1 Engineered Explosives

    We need to just be less clunky and kill their early threats with Ballista/Plow/EE. I know Plow looks weird, but vs. Delver we should be seeing Chalice as more of a mid-game lock piece, especially when on the draw, and clean up the board before we worry about locking them out. Put them on the back foot by killing whatever turn one threat they have ASAP. I could see trimming more and more Karns in this MU as he's very clunky and gets slammed right into Daze unlike our Human threats. Maybe even Prelate is an option in this matchup...

    Game 2: Again we're on the ropes but we eventually assemble the combo with a known Surgical in my opponent's hand. As such, I play Salvagers out but not LED because if LED gets countered the combo gets entirely stopped by countering LED > Surgical it. Next turn with four mana up, I play LED, my opponent realises that I can beat Surgical very easily, ends up Surgicalling my Ballista and then I play a Mentor and then go through making infinite Monks.

    Game 3: Turn one DRS for my opponent and this soon becomes a big issue with my mana assaulted by Wasteland (one hitting an Ancient Den turning off my Opal, and another Opal in hand, basically double Stone Raining me) and me having to play through a Daze I know. Delver joins the party and I can't get mana online to do anything. I soon die.

    Dying to Grixis Delver is sad, but I think it's all about the early turns, honestly, and being able to beat their on-board idiots before they get setup. As I mentioned, Plow is excellent to prevent that. Declaration in Stone is an option that is synergistic with Chalice, and Blessed Alliance can beat a lonely True-Name (but looks silly vs. Pyromancer, though Pyromancer is very easy to counter with Ballista). I think we need Plow for the Marit Lage decks too so yeap.

    Anyway, deck is very awesome but I think the BUG and Czech matchups were close and I got a little lucky there. Maverick (and D&T) are feeling easier and easier with Mentor + Karn as a powerful engine. Grixis Delver typically feels easy but I felt on the ropes here being on the draw and them able to come out ahead early. I'll be playing the same 75 (maybe) through a seven-rounder tomorrow and will report how I go.
    Writing:

    Also podcast with Stevestamopz and Speedbump_NZ on The Salt Mine.

  4. #224

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    I managed to get a bunch of games in last night. No event, just playing with people. I was running Sean's list, swapping Fair for Karakas in the main and with a 2/1 split of Swords/Wail in the board.

    Karn is just... wow. I didn't really have any doubts about the power level of the card in this shell, it's fairly obvious that it's going to be great. My big reservations were finding room for the card, and cutting Confidant to do so. I was excited to try Freebooter in the deck, but was on a long Magic hiatus and never ended up testing that list. I'm still a bit iffy on the current list, mostly because we have slightly less 'gas' than before (simply because we have 3 Karns, and before we had 4 Confidant). But Karn has really, really impressed me. More than I initially expected, to be honest.

    I played against 4c Pile, Grixis Delver a few times, D&T, a 'big' D&T list with sol lands and chrome mox but seemingly without Chalice?, R sneak/breach without Moons and splashing a single Volc for S&T, Maverick, some weird mono blue artifact control deck, Tin Fins, Miracles & Nic Fit.

    The Pile matchup felt very good. In general I'm a fan of the MU against the various UBx decks - they often rely hard on Force to keep us in check, and Cavern really screws with that plan. Grixis Delver is a MU where I feel favored, but only by a bit. They're just much more likely to kill us before we can combo/kill them compared to Pile and other durdly BUGx decks. I believe I was 1-2 vs Grixis on the night.

    My other losses were to the R breach deck and the sol D&T deck. Vs the breach deck we played twice and I got the first match in a fairly regular fashion. I thought he was just S&T after G1 since I ended up comboing in the face of an Emrakul after S&T. G2 he made me feel silly about my Chalices I left in and ended up killing me with Inferno Titan, but G3 I combo'd him fairly quickly. The second match was very disappointing, however. I T1 Salvagers into T2 Salvagers in G1 with an LED, but manage to not draw any of the seventeen cards which win me the game. I even had a Karn going digging for a 'wincon'. G2 I had double STP in hand but opened on Cavern instead of Ancient Den for some reason, and my opponent went T1 Tomb SSG Seething Song Breach Worldspine Wurm.

    Vs the 'big' D&T deck, I had a T2 combo... but was on the Draw and he had T2 Thalia HC. I even had a T1 EE on 2 to deal with an OG Thalia since he opened on Plains pass. I needed to rip a Plains or Lotus Petal to win, but didn't get there and effectively lost to multiple Wastelands. G2 he ends up going T3 Angel of Sanctions into T4 Angel of Sanctions vs my hand which was just too fair despite the T2 Karn. I do expect that these decks play Chalice but given that my opponent kept a seven that couldn't have beaten a fast combo in G2 and that G1 lasted forever as he killed me with just THC beats, maybe he didn't have it?

    Interesting notes from the matches I won:

    Vs Tin Fins I won G1 after going T1 Chalice 1, T2 Chalice 2, T3 drop Karakas. Opponent managed to get to six mana before I could find a threat, but that didn't really matter thanks to Karakas. G2 they ended up going off, but had trouble finding the Tendrils for the win. They had previously Thoughtsiezed a Sanctum Prelate and had cracked an LED in response to their own Living Wish for Children of Korlis, having whiffed on finding one with their Grisel. They only had Exhume as a reanimation spell for bringing it back... which brought back my Prelate, naming 4. They had four Decay in the yard already and could only get up to 13 mana, unable to hardcast Emrakul.

    Vs Miracles, I combo quickly in G1 thanks to Chalice. G2 I got to win solely off of two Ballista + Cavern. We got in a staring match where I would spend my whole turn pumping the ballista by one and attacking, and they I guess didn't want to use their removal (or didn't have it, but they were playing like they did). I ended up killing them from around ten life by dropping two opals and three petals for a huge, uncounterable second ballista. Cool.

    The Maverick match was the most fun and interesting game I played. A lot of the fair matchups are very enjoyable when they don't involve the combo and the opponent doesn't have specific hate (i.e. chalice, null rod). G1 was typical combo them out stuff. G2 I drew all four of my Ballista! I ended up using two of them to kill a birds and a Dryad Arbor after my opponent dropped Gaea's Cradle, and lost a third to a Pridemage. The fourth couldn't get there vs his board of Thalia, Teeg and an SFM after he waste landed me below four mana. I was really worried about his mana production after he dropped Cradle, but cutting him from seven mana a turn to three really doesn't matter when he's drawing one card a turn. I think if I had just held my ballistae I could have easily one. Which brings us to G3. I get a fast Karn + Ballista. My opponent deploys a Thalia and thanks to a Bauble I know they have Jitte. I end up intentionally leaving Thalia on board the whole game, as it 1. let me keep my Ballista and 2. they couldn't play and equip Jitte at any point because of the Thalia tax. They had to use Decays and Pridemage to deal with the tokens I was pumping out with Karn, and meanwhile I was pinging their Birds and other little guys with Ballista every turn to keep them off of mana and bodies for Jitte. They likely had an easy route to victory if they didn't play Thalia and could have just thrown bodies with a Jitte attached at me until victory.

    Going forward, I think I do want to try Fair, as I haven't yet played it in the deck. I am hesitant about cutting white sources when running Prelate in the board, so I think I will try going down to two City of Traitors for now and see how it plays out.

  5. #225

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Have a big report from yesterday's 42-player sanctioned in Melbourne, Australia. Took the deck to an okay 4-2, but lost some matches I felt I definitely could've gotten there if the odds were more in my favour.

    Same list as before:

    4 Monastery Mentor
    4 Auriok Salvagers
    4 Walking Ballista

    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Mishra's Bauble
    4 Urza's Bauble
    1 Lodestone Bauble
    1 Engineered Explosives
    3 Karn, Scion of Urza

    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 City of Traitors
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Ancient Den
    1 Inventors' Fair
    3 Plains

    Sideboard
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Sanctum Prelate
    2 Seal of Cleansing
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    2 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Cast Out
    1 Engineered Explosives
    3 Swords to Plowshares

    On to the matches:

    Round 1: Miracles

    Game 1: I'm against a good friend of mine and he is sad to see me about to "ape" him out. On the draw, I t1 Chalice and he passes the Force check. Then I play a Salvagers... With another Salvagers, LED and Karn in my hand (and an Urza's Bauble in the bin). This gets Plowed and then he cantrips around leaving up one mana. I play my second Salvagers and decide that I'm going to go for the combo; it's unlikely he has exactly a second Plow, though if he does I lose my Karn to the LED discard. He doesn't have Plow and I kill him.

    -3 Walking Ballista
    -2 Lion's Eye Diamond
    -1 Lodestone Bauble
    -1 Mox Opal
    -1 Lotus Petal
    +2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    +2 Seal of Cleansing
    +1 Engineered Explosives
    +1 Cast Out
    +2 Sanctum Prelate

    Not sure how we're feeling about Ballista in this MU. I like that he can pressure Jace and clean a board of Snappy's and friends, but with Spyglass and Cast Out in the deck we have cleaner answer to the big boy anyway. I kept one as a Fair target.

    Game 2: I really, really derp my opponent out here. He starts on Volc, Ponder, I t1 Spyglass him. He has a Strand in hand as his only land and I name it. His hand is really gasoline - a Disenchant, Counterbalance, etc. - but he Brainstorms, finds another Strand as his only other land and I'm free to combo next turn through his Force via Cavern. Gross.

    Round 2: Czech Pile

    Game 1: My hand very quickly gets shredded apart and a Leovold sitting on the table means my Salvagers, although looping Baubles, can only crack one per turn and hence it takes me a long time to churn through my library and alleviate the pressure. I whiff and draw not much and die. Leovold sucks. I also remember missequencing my lands and getting Stone Rained via Kolaghan's Command twice on my Ancient Den. Sucks. Note to self, expose artifact lands to destruction as little as possible, please.

    -4 Chalice of the Void
    -2 Lion's Eye Diamond
    -1 Lodestone Bauble
    +2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    +3 Swords to Plowshares
    +1 Cast Out
    +1 Engineered Explosives

    Game 2: My opponent can't really develop their mana and I'm struggling to turn on a Mox Opal. My opponent ends up having three Deathrites... That I EE for 1 and all kill. After that I play Salvagers and Mentor and they clean it up with trinket loops.

    Game 3: I mull to six and have double Spyglass. Turns out it doesn't do much, the first one naming Delta and the second one, since my opponent doesn't have early DRS, names Jace. Turns out I'm an idiot and I die to, again, late game Deathrite + Leovold slowing my bauble loops and Tomb damage adding up. Notably, Karn kept getting ripped away in these matchups by discard, but I suppose that left me able to have both Salvagers and Karn as high-impact threats. Anyway, sad times.

    Round 3: Turbo Depths

    Game 1: This matchup is really boring. I mull to five, have turn one Chalice on one, play my third land, play a Ballista, he passes. I brick on my fourth mana source to play Chalice on 2 and completely lock him out, and then he plays Hexmage, Depths and kills me. So, so close.

    -4 Walking Ballista
    -3 Karn, Scion of Urza
    -2 ?
    +3 Swords to Plowshares
    +2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    +1 Engineered Explosives
    +1 Cast Out
    +2 Seal of Cleansing

    I'm so iffy on the board plan here. I know I left in Chalices in g2 (despite the dissynergy with Plow) but I usually cut them on the draw. Perhaps I didn't bring in the Seals g2? I can't remember.

    Game 2: I have Spyglass and Plow for all his Stages in hand, but he has Decay for my Spyglass. He also has a Duress for my Plow. The rest of his hand is fast mana. He strips my Plow, Decays my Spyglass and then topdecks a tutor and kills me while I flood out. Okay.

    Round 4: BUG Control

    Game 1: A Chalice on one leads to a Mentor going unchecked and then a Salvagers joins the party. TNN ends up on blocking duty for my opponent while the Monk army crashes in thanks to Bauble loops.

    -4 Chalice of the Void
    -2 Lion's Eye Diamond
    -1 Lodestone Bauble
    +2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    +3 Swords to Plowshares
    +1 Cast Out
    +1 Engineered Explosives

    Game 2: Honestly, I think the same thing happens, though a Karn that I could've turn oned (off of two Lotus Petals that were my only white sources - seemed like a bad idea especially when I had Salvagers in hand and a Tomb for turn two Karn anyway) gets discarded on turn two thanks to a topdecked Thoughtseize. I end up topdecking Mentor though and wrecking havoc. Salvagers then too joins the party and Lotus Petal loops make an army that inflicts a hella lotta damage.

    Round 5: Grixis Delver

    Same guy as the weekly event, so it's time for vengeance after my 4-0 was taken away!

    Game 1: Delver does its Delver things. I have some Baubles and a Chalice in hand after a mulligan, but not on turn one. My Chalice gets Dazed, my other Chalice gets Pierced (that I unfortunately couldn't of played around - though maybe if I just waited? I think being patient and turning off their soft counters that their wasting turns holding up is a good idea) and then a FoW bites my Salvagers that was ready to combo. I die to Angler.

    -2 Lion's Eye Diamond
    -1 Lodestone Bauble
    -2 Karn, Scion of Urza
    -1 Mox Opal
    +3 Swords to Plowshares
    +2 Sanctum Prelate
    +1 Engineeered Explosives

    Game 2: True ape Magic. Turn one Chalice into turn two Cavern, Petal, Prelate on two. My opponent cannot really do anything, though Dismember is an out. He scoops it up... But checks his topcard and sees it is Dismember. He is sad.

    Game 3: I remember slamming Mentors off Caverns and a Mox Opal getting Forced to turn off White mana for a Plow in my hand. In the end, Mentor really does way too much damage even against three DRS. Karn comes down too to really get the Monk army rolling.

    Round 6: Lands

    Game 1: I try something different since I'm already out. I have a sol land heavy hand (Tomb, City, City, trinkets, no white source, Mentor, Chalice). I decide to see if Chalice on 2 will work, especially since I need to defend my Mentor from PFire. I Tomb go, my opponent Exploration, Wastelands me. Okay, I guess Chalice on 1 would've been neat. I City, go, my opponent Gambles for a combo piece, then Crop Rotates for a combo piece the next turn, then kills me.

    Ladies and gentleman, I learnt that Chalice on 1 on the play vs. Lands is probably good enough.

    -4 Chalice of the Void
    -4 Walking Ballista
    -2 Lion's Eye Diamond
    -3 Karn, Scion of Urza
    +2 Sanctum Prelate
    +2 Seal of Cleansing
    +2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    +2 Tormod's Crypt
    +1 Cast Out
    +1 Engineered Explosives
    +3 Swords to Plowshares

    I may/may of not boarded in the Cast Out, Prelates in this MU and I remember boarding in at least two Plows. I may of kept in some Karns. I think Seals, Spyglass, Crypt and EE are must-ins though and the rest is up to preference.

    Game 2: We go all-in on an early Mentor that gets played on turn one. I play land, Mox, trinket, trinket, Mox, Mentor but have nothing to trigger - ideally next turn we can cycle into something. If my opponent goes Mox, land PFire though I've seriously probably just lost the game. Turns out they dont, we draw into some trinkets and a Spyglass for the Maze of Ith they play and then the Mentor engine fires up and kills them.

    Game 3: A very good one, with Spyglass again being an MVP shutting off a Stage that would've made Marit Lage kill me. My opponent has GQ but I have basics that make it a non-issue. Once Salvagers and LED (and a Lodestone Bauble on board) hits the table my opponent Gambles for a Chalice on zero, with me knowing they have a Crop Rotation in hand ready to Bog me. They play the Chalice. Next turn, I play an EE X = 1 but Sunburst zero off Cavern and then delicately play around Bog by EoT blowing my EE, cracking LED and Lodestone in resp, returning both to my hand and always having enough mana up to save them from a Bog blowing up my GY. The turn after, I combo out with Lodestone Bauble.

    All-in-all, the deck felt both incredibly high and but hit some pretty sad lows. When it did its thing, whatever the varied plan it attacked with, it felt incredible. When it drew dead it really drew dead, though there were always draws which could've let the deck "just get there" which I think is a nice thing it has compared to other Stompy decks - being able to win out of nowhere from behind. I think, like most Stompy decks, you really have to know your mulligan decisions well and of course use the better acceleration we have from the mono-White mana base to take explosive, sometime risky, plays.

    Props:
    • Beating Lands, a relatively tough matchup. Basic Plains did work.
    • Spyglass being overall very worthy of its sideboard slot, though I am now dubious of it's application vs. Pile (though it's probably still fine).
    • Mentor for being busted. I think non-Mentor version are just missing out on a card that is synergistic and gives us a really busted angle of attack that needs no "combo".
    • Prelate feels so much more high-impact as a SB card than Canonist. We can bring it in for so many matchups (eg. brought in for Miracles as extra Chalice effects or Terminus defence).
    • Karn for being great at... Getting ripped away by discard but at least keeping our hands "high-impact" and letting other cards (Mentor, Salvagers etc.) resolve instead. We have a pretty high threat-density now and a lot of powerful "bombs" to catch us up frombehind (though Mentor topdecked doesn't really do that unless Salvagers or Karn is already in play).


    Slops:
    • Missequencing lands and getting Stone Rained into oblivion. A good lesson for fighting decks with MD artifact destruction: only play your Dens/Opals when you are going to be accelerating something out.
    • Turbo Depths for being frustrating to deal with and my sideboard plan still not being well fleshed out. To Chalice or not to Chalice? Games like this make me miss Recruiter > crack LED > Magus of the Moon.
    Writing:

    Also podcast with Stevestamopz and Speedbump_NZ on The Salt Mine.

  6. #226
    Only 1 of the 2 words of my handle fit. Now I seem arrogant.
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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    So I've been running with Bomberman for the past 4 months or so, and I went 3-1 with the deck again at the Card Kingdom (MBH Seattle) Weekly, which seems the usual outcome.

    Karn only got cast once, but it felt pretty good when it did, so I'm definitely sold on him having at least one spot in the 75

    Here's the list I was on:

    4 Monastery Mentor
    4 Auriok Salvagers
    4 Dark Confidant
    2 Imperial Recuiter
    2 Trinket Mage
    1 Walking Ballista

    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Lotus Petal
    3 Mishra's Bauble
    4 Urza's Bauble
    1 Lodestone Bauble


    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 City of Traitors
    4 Cavern of Souls
    3 Unclaimed Territory
    2 Remote Farm
    1 Karakas
    1 Inventors' Fair
    1 Spire of Industry

    Sideboard
    1 Karn, Scion of Urza
    2 Quicksmith Rebel
    2 Sanctum Prelate
    1 Containment Priest
    1 Warpriest of Thune
    2 Manic Vandal
    2 Magus of the Disk
    1 Spatial Contortion
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Surge Node
    1 Engineered Explosives


    On to the matches:

    Round 1 was Hexproof(?). I combo off turn 3, and then turn 2. 2-0

    Round 2: Grixis Delver

    Game 1: Delver does Delver things, I lose.

    -3 Auriok Salvagers
    -3 Lion's Eye Diamond
    +1 Karn, Scion of Urza
    +2 Quicksmith Rebel
    +2 Sanctum Prelate
    +1 Manic Vandal (<- Probably a bad call, but was overly worried about Null Rod, Winter Orb, Needle effects out of the board and I'm on a tutor build.)

    Game 2: I lead on Chalice on 1, it resolves. I follow it up with Karn and two Baubles, Karn makes a 4/4. When he passes the turn back, I put a Chalice on two, but he scoops before Karn can make a second 6/6.

    Game 3: He opens by probing me, revealing a Confidant and a Chalice. I don't have a Cavern, so I lead on Confidant. Not positive this was the right play, but I figured if he had the force, it would be earmarked for Chalice so I'd start gaining Confidant value as early as possible. If he didn't have the force, I'd be giving him an extra chance to cantrip into it, but I'd still be leading turn 1 on an uncontested Confidant. I didn't want to drop Chalice into force though, and then try try to start gaining Confidant value the next turn after giving him another turn to prepare to answer that.

    After he reluctantly dismembers my Mentor, I go for the combo kill off of Lodestone Bauble. He draws his deck during his upkeep, attempts to break a Chalice and bolt me with more draw triggers on the stack. It's not enough. (2-1)


    Round 3: Elves

    (This was the Round 3 Camera Match)

    Game 1: I keep a hand that can make an infinite monks Turn 3. Opponent is also able to Combo me out Turn 3. Unfortunately, he went first.

    Game 2: I keep a hand that Combo's turn 2. I briefly consider waiting a turn to insulate the combo with a Trinket Mage into 2nd LED to protect against Extraction, but weighing the risk/reward I go for it anyway and make him draw his deck turn 2.

    Game 3: I keep a hand on the strength of Walking Ballista, quite likely overvaluing it in the matchup given the rest of the hand. I drop an early Ballista for 2 and take out his Dryad Arbor. It meets an Abrupt Decay in short order. I follow it up with a Salvagers to re-establish Ballista to control the board the next turn, but he combos me out before I get said turn. 1-2

    Round 4: Burn

    Game 1: He plays a turn 2 Eidolon. I play walking Ballista to kill it and combo off turn 3.


    Game 2: He plays a turn 2 Pyrostatic Pillar. I search up Warpriest of Thune, kill it and combo off. 2-0


    I continue to prefer a 4-Color Build, as the Tutors are very versatile in the match, make sideboard slots more powerful, greatly increase the consistency with which you can just take wins by slamming the combo, synergize very well with LED, and make Chalice matches much more winnable. Both of them can be Ballistas when I need them to anyways. Replacing one of the Unclaimed Territory with a Spire of Industry is an experiment I'm still not sure of as Spire of Industry is such a weaker land in this context, but I felt adding another natural white source for Salvagers was worthwhile. It has yet to bite me, as anytime I've drawn it where it was awkward, I've also had access to at least one Cavern/Territory. I have had hands though where I was very glad a Territory was not the Spire, so I'll continue to feel that one out.

    Magus of the Disk should probably not be in the board, but a tutorable and uncounterable Nev-Disk still seems like something I want to play around with and I want to see it actually fail before just assuming that it will, and I've only really managed to drop it once.

    I've still never been disappointed by Surge Node, however. It only comes in against Chalice Decks, but along with Trinket Mage over the course of the game it turns their Chalices into my Chalices, and given that EE always is played along side it in those matchups, if EE in not needed to clear chalices at that point in the game, it even makes EE a bit more flexible as well. It looks too cute to work, but as a Trinket Mage target it simply has not stopped working for me.

    Chances are high that Spatial Contortion should be Warping Wail; as it is, it's largely a relic of an early anxiety about Leovold, but I don't think Czech Pile is really a matchup to be compromising the board a lot for.

  7. #227
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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    I've tried multiple iterations of chalice bomberman and I believe mono-white is the strongest and most consistent.

    For the utility land slot I've tried ancient den, inventors' fair, and karakas. Ancient den feels sub-par since it's only role is turning on metalcraft and pumping karn tokens while karakas is bouncing thalias, leos, emrakuls and griselbrands and inventors' fair is just finding the card you need to win the game.

    4 Monastery Mentor
    4 Auriok Salvagers
    4 Walking Ballista

    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Mishra's Bauble
    4 Urza's Bauble
    2 Engineered Explosives
    3 Karn, Scion of Urza

    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 City of Traitors
    4 Cavern of Souls
    2 Inventors' Fair
    3 Karakas
    3 Plains

    SIDEBOARD
    2 Lodestone Golem
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Sanctum Prelate
    2 Disenchant
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    2 Tormod's Crypt
    3 Swords to Plowshares

  8. #228
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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by ChemicalBurns View Post
    [*]Prelate feels so much more high-impact as a SB card than Canonist. We can bring it in for so many matchups (eg. brought in for Miracles as extra Chalice effects or Terminus defence).
    I completely agree; its always been a must in a bunch of matchups, especially against Storm and Miracles. It also helps actually lock some decks out. I am currently on an Esper build and weirdly faced two Turbo Depths players in a row at FNM. Both matches I won with a combination of Bridge (I have been experimenting with boarding out Mentors in Depths matchups) and Prelate on two. They had literally zero outs to the bridge. The deck needs a couple ways to protect the combo that can't be completely obliterated by an EE on zero and the Prelate certainly pull its weight. Now if you'd ever try a one-of recruiter in board (I swear its not terrible in helping to set up a interesting toolbox and can get a Mentor or Ballista in a pinch.

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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by ChemicalBurns View Post
    [*]Turbo Depths for being frustrating to deal with and my sideboard plan still not being well fleshed out. To Chalice or not to Chalice? Games like this make me miss Recruiter > crack LED > Magus of the Moon.
    I remember you posting a Japanese list awhile back that boarded in Bridges, and I honestly think there is a small subset of matchups for which crouching into a defensive posture and hiding behind a Bridge makes total sense, including Eldrazi, Lands, Turbo Depths, and Show and Tell. I have even brought it in against Delver occasionally just to give them another must-destroy artifact. Here is my current board (for an esper build):

    2 Containment Priest
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Kitesail Freebooter
    1 Devout Witness
    1 Orzhov Pontiff
    1 Notion Thief
    1 Recruiter of the Guard
    2 Sanctum Prelate
    2 Tormods Crypt
    2 Ensnaring Bridge

  10. #230
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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by mambosong View Post
    Weird, how are you guys side boarding? I've yet to lose the S&S MU and my opponents tend to think its unwinnable. Chalice shuts off cantrips and spyglass hoses sneak attack. S&T helps us combo off without mana to cast salvagers the turn after too, plus we have 1 or 2 Karakas MB. :S Also, kitesail freebooter comes down turn 1 or 2 to take half of their combo piece. Maybe I've been lucky in my small sample size but have gone 2-0 against that deck more than a handful of times.
    I think if you run Spyglass and 1-2 Karakas then, yes, this should be pretty easy. Karakas in the MB, though, makes us even weaker to a variety of nonbasic land hate without too much upside, except for the random S&T or Reanimator blowout. It doesn't help us turn on metalcraft and it plays no role in protecting or finding our combo.

    I would also say that the problem with S&L is always going to be the fact that they can win quicker than us, particularly if it is an Omni build. The best hate against them is uncounterable, but Spyglass is weak to their countermagic and a fast combo hand with Omniscence is game over. Their board clears are also very good against Mentor and some of our hate, unless Prelate is on three for K Return or two for literally only Pyroclasm. If it ends up that they put in Emrakul and pass, I agree that it really isn't that bad, but I find that happens far less frequently than starring down a turn 3 Sneak Attack with a Griselbrand in play drawing 14 cards.

  11. #231

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by contra View Post
    I've tried multiple iterations of chalice bomberman and I believe mono-white is the strongest and most consistent.

    For the utility land slot I've tried ancient den, inventors' fair, and karakas. Ancient den feels sub-par since it's only role is turning on metalcraft and pumping karn tokens while karakas is bouncing thalias, leos, emrakuls and griselbrands and inventors' fair is just finding the card you need to win the game.

    4 Monastery Mentor
    4 Auriok Salvagers
    4 Walking Ballista

    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Mishra's Bauble
    4 Urza's Bauble
    2 Engineered Explosives
    3 Karn, Scion of Urza

    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 City of Traitors
    4 Cavern of Souls
    2 Inventors' Fair
    3 Karakas
    3 Plains

    SIDEBOARD
    2 Lodestone Golem
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Sanctum Prelate
    2 Disenchant
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    2 Tormod's Crypt
    3 Swords to Plowshares
    I can understand Ancient Den feeling sub-par, but I do truly believe that mono-White's benefit is the smoother mana and the more explosive openings because more consistent Mox Opals. I love utility lands more than anyone and would love to find room, but I also love consistency. The Mox Opal issue has been one of the issues I've been consistently trying to address in every iteration of the deck and honestly, if I played a splash I'd probably cut them entirely and play something like Signets.

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmiccoil View Post
    I remember you posting a Japanese list awhile back that boarded in Bridges, and I honestly think there is a small subset of matchups for which crouching into a defensive posture and hiding behind a Bridge makes total sense, including Eldrazi, Lands, Turbo Depths, and Show and Tell. I have even brought it in against Delver occasionally just to give them another must-destroy artifact. Here is my current board (for an esper build):

    2 Containment Priest
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Kitesail Freebooter
    1 Devout Witness
    1 Orzhov Pontiff
    1 Notion Thief
    1 Recruiter of the Guard
    2 Sanctum Prelate
    2 Tormods Crypt
    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    That's some spicy sideboard! I do agree that Recruiter is probably an toolbox option we have available to us even though it cannot find Salvagers; post-board we often grind with Mentor/Karn/Salvager loops and just having more silver bullet access is pretty neat.

    I love the idea of Bridge and will try it at the weekly this week. I am truly getting sick of Marit Lage killing us one turn sooner, and it also overlaps with a somewhat difficult matchup in Show & Tell. I agree that siding out Mentors is not a bad plan in combo matchups.
    Writing:

    Also podcast with Stevestamopz and Speedbump_NZ on The Salt Mine.

  12. #232

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    I finished 5-3 at GP Birmingham with mono W (4 Karn / 4 Cities) - I punted my win and in which was close to a 100% win which feels bad will post list mini report later.

  13. #233

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    4-0 at weekly last night, first time playing the deck. I've been wanting to play Karn in legacy and Bomberman seems the best place for him currently.

    List heavily borrowed from ChemicalBurns/Contra.

    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Urza's Bauble
    4 Mishra's Bauble
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Mox Opal
    3 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Lodestone Bauble
    4 Walking Ballista
    4 Auriok Salvagers
    4 Monastery Mentor
    4 Karn, Scion of Urza

    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Cavern of Souls
    3 Plains
    2 Karakas
    2 Inventors' Fair

    Sideboard:
    3 Tormod's Crypt
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Containment Priest
    3 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Cast Out
    2 Disenchant
    3 Swords to Plowshares


    Only 3 LED cause when I was putting the deck together I discovered an LED I bought months ago was fake -_- . 4 Karn because I just wanted to play with him.

    Czech Pile 2-0:
    g1 - t1 chalice completely shut him down. he cast a few strixes, but my ballistas cleaned up and he eventually conceded to ballista beats
    g2 - early mentor pressured his life until he deluged it away -- karn made a 4/4 that he also deluged -- I then tapped 10 mana and ballistaed him to death.

    BR Reanimator 2-1
    g1 - he did his thing and got a t1 griselbrand, I couldn't find karakas so conceded
    g2 - I lead with t1 chalice t2 chalice and he had no outs
    g3 - he mulled and t1 played looting pass binning chancellor and gbrand -- i cast an opal to clear annex trigger, then played spyglass naming gbrand. he cast another looting and passed, so I chaliced for 2 (saw a ratchet bomb off spyglass). He only had 2-mana reanimate spells so next turn I comboed off

    NicFit 2-0
    g1 - I lead with chalice on 1, he GSZs for a vet explorer -- he's stuck on mana though so I just sit around building up an army of mentors and karn constructs trying to one shot him. He eventually casts a sigarda or something and then I draw the combo.
    g2 - he plays 2 vet explorers and again i dont attack or block with mentor -- i have a ballista out on 1 and combo in hand but not enough mana, so I shoot a explorer, fetch out 2 plains and combo off with double activation up to beat surgical which he doesn't end up having

    Infect 2-0
    g1 and g2 i inventors fair for uncounterable ballista and there's nothing he can do

    I tried out Ancient Den in some online testing and was not impressed at all. Inventor's Fair is really clutch and think it's a lynchpin of the deck. Without it you rely on slowtrips and topdecks and with it you just instantly win the game. The deck is great, I love the cleanliness of being monowhite and mainly 4x. I'll probably continue to run it back for a while.
    Last edited by Kaono; 05-16-2018 at 01:05 PM.

  14. #234

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Okay, based on everyone's thoughts I'll be testing two thing this Thursday:
    • Zero Ancient Den, second Fair and two Karakas in the main.
    • Ensnaring Bridge in the sideboard.

    List will look something like this:

    Creatures: (12)
    4 Monastery Mentor
    4 Auriok Salvagers
    4 Walking Ballista

    Non-Creature Spells: (29)
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Urza's Bauble
    4 Mishra's Bauble
    1 Lodestone Bauble
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Lotus Petal
    3 Karn, Scion of Urza
    1 Engineered Explosives

    Lands: (19)
    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 City of Traitors
    4 Cavern of Souls
    2 Inventors' Fair
    2 Karakas
    4 Plains

    Sideboard: (15)
    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    2 Warping Wail
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Sanctum Prelate
    2 Tormod's Crypt
    2 Seal of Cleansing
    2 Sorcerous Splyglass
    1 Engineered Explosives

    The only thing I worry about here is a lack of clean answers to Leovold; I guess Spatial Contortion is an answer instead of Wail, but Wails flexibility as counter/kill/Edict protection seems valuable.

    EDIT: I guess Karakas bounces Leovold for us to combo out! So that's pretty neat.

    Really feels like we need 17 sideboard slots in this deck -.- Will see how Opals go without Den, but I could see only playing three and maining second Explosives as a good idea because they're less likely to be turned on anyway.
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  15. #235
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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    4 Ancient Den
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Cavern of Souls
    3 City of Traitors
    1 Inventors' Fair
    1 Karakas
    2 Plains

    4 Chalice of the Void
    2 Engineered Explosives
    3 Karn, Scion of Urza
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Mishra's Bauble
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Urza's Bauble

    4 Auriok Salvagers
    4 Monastery Mentor
    4 Walking Ballista

    //Sideboard
    SB: 1 Blessed Alliance
    SB: 2 Warping Wail
    SB: 2 Containment Priest
    SB: 1 Lodestone Golem
    SB: 2 Sanctum Prelate
    SB: 1 Seal of Cleansing
    SB: 2 Cast Out
    SB: 2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt

    I played this list yesterday, but as I was late I went 2-1 as I had lost the first round.
    The 2 rounds I played I won against:

    TES: 2-1
    G1: I am on the play and keep a hand that wins T3 and draws 40 cards on his 2nd turn. Unfortunately he can play Ad Nauseam T2 and wins.
    G2: I can T2 Lodestone Golem and he only has Duress on his T1.
    G3: I have double Sanctum Prelate and dump the rest of the hand T1. He looks at my hand and concedes to Prelate on 2, as he boarded Abrupt Decay and Echoing Truth...

    Maverick
    G1: He has Thalia, but over the course of the game I get a Mentor and can resolve a lot of Baubles so the Thalia and Qasali have to defend. After I have an Auriok, I can get triggers every turn and he dies.
    G2: He has 4 DRS during the game and had a hand with Bayou and Wasteland. I mulliganed into a hand of Salvagers and 5 Mana Sources knowing what he plays. After ten turns I have the combo and he still has the lonely Bayou after wasting my Ancient Den T1.
    Last edited by hofzge; 05-17-2018 at 05:56 AM.
    Chalice on 1

  16. #236

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Another 4-0 at weekly, deck is busted.

    Pretty much the same list as last time but -1 Karn for +1 EE and -1 City of Traitors for +1 Plains. I also updated sideboard, again basing it on ChemicalBurns/Contra's lists:

    3 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Tormod's Crypt
    2 Sanctum Prelate
    2 Seal of Cleansing
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Cast Out
    1 Containment Priest
    1 Ensnaring Bridge

    R1 Storm:
    g1 - t1 chalice on one = ggs
    g2 - he cast a t2 ad naus and killed himself in the face of a mentor + tokens

    R2 BOMBERMAN MIRROR
    Shop was hype for this (okay maybe just us but it was hype), he's on Unclaimed Territory 4-color humans build with Trinket Mage, Imp Recruiter, Confidant et al. The tension in these games was amazing. I probably played/boarded wrong but still got the W.
    g1 - I get a t1 mentor on the play off no lands, then dont draw any lands or non-mentor/salvager/karn cards and he combos me out pretty easily
    g2 - I plow his early Confidant, then I get the combo online and draw 40 cards with bauble -- he goes for his combo and I plow the Salvager in resp
    g3 - He has Salvager/Recruiter/Mage out and then plays Confidant, tanks for a bit and then plays Chalice on zero. I had the kill in hand so I untap, ballista the confidant, then start ticking up with Karn trying to find an answer. He adds another Salvager and a Magus of the Disc to his side while I have 3 ballistas on 2/2/1 and a salvager of my own. Karn finds an Inventors Fair so I minus to grab it, then EOT fetch an EE. I shoot the Magus with Ballistas and he pops it in resp. I play my 2nd Salvager from hand + LED = gg

    R3 Jeskai Stoneblade
    g1 - t1 chalice OP
    g2 - cavern drops a mentor and I start swinging in, I have combo on board but read he has an answer so just stick with mentor beats and win -- post game he showed me a Surgical which I could've beat anyway with double activation but my hand was Karn+Cast out and I chose to prioritize prowess triggers over insta-win.

    R4 Storm
    g1 - chalice on 1 chalice on 2 OP
    g2 - he decays my early chalice, but I have t2 mentor + pressure -- I swing for 7 and for 17 and he shows me a hand of all mana despite casting 2 brainstorms

    Wrap up: I'm getting super lucky and topdecking like a champ but I think Bomberman as an archetype is extremely underrated at the current moment. I think the deck is a little too soft to combo so I wonder if Karn should be in SB for grindy MUs where we dilute on combo and we should put 2 prelates or canonists mainboard.
    Last edited by Kaono; 05-22-2018 at 12:51 PM.

  17. #237
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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaono View Post
    I think the deck is a little too soft to combo so I wonder if Karn should be in SB for grindy MUs where we dilute on combo and we should put 2 prelates or canonists mainboard.
    (Full disclosure: I'm your round 2 mirror opponent. I came here to share thoughts on the mirror, but you beat me to it. Congrats on the 2nd 4-0 btw, I've yet to get past 3-1)

    I do think Karn and even running Ballista as a full 4x maindeck is making a pretty loud statement as to the gameplan you want to be running, and it is certainly trying to be the better fair-deck mainboard. I've followed the same logic you're bringing up to not run Karn main and even shave on Ballista in favor of the blue and red tutors, which admittedly can both still grab Ballista.

    Now admittedly, I'm a recurring 3-1 in the exact playerpool you just 4-0'd twice back-to-back with 4x Ballista 4x Karn, so perhaps the better fairgame maindeck IS where you want to be, but to the degree in which you want to attribute it to variance, luck, and playskill over this element of deck-construction, I do think that running 4x Ballista 4x Karn is pretty aggressively grindy for a deck with such a solid combo and with limited mainboard interaction to opposing combos. Running Unclaimed Territory and treating your color as "Human" instead of White still remains very clean, but there's no way that manabase could support 3x Swords to Plowshares, so running Prelate Mainboard seems like a great experiment. There was a 90-man french tournament not too long ago that had a 4x Sanctum Prelate deck take Top 8, and I think I remember them posting something about how great maindeck prelates felt in most of their matchups across the board. Please report back as soon as you can with how the mainboard Prelates are feeling if you test with it.

  18. #238

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD47849S/

    I forgot to mention this list that popped up in Japan. Pretty exciting stuff, though the mana looks shaky and there's a lot of weird ideas thrown in here. I think the main card here that deserves consideration is Board the Weatherlight (The Antiquities War is quite slow, and off-colour). Essentially a cantrip in our deck, it can smooth out draws pretty effectively (unfortunately can't find Salvagers). Any calculations on the minimum number of hits we need to make this good? Thinking something along these lines:

    Creatures: (8)
    4 Auriok Salvagers
    4 Walking Ballista

    Non-Creature Spells: (32)
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Board the Weatherlight
    4 Karn, Scion of Urza
    3 Ensnaring Bridge
    4 Urza's Bauble
    4 Mishra's Bauble
    4 Lotus Petal
    1 Engineered Explosives

    Lands: (20)
    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 City of Traitors
    3 Cavern of Souls
    4 Ancient Den
    2 Karakas
    1 Inventors' Fair
    3 Plains

    Mox Opal has been cut though I suppose it could be included. I like how Board can find some utility lands (Karakas, Fair) and makes some one-ofs like Explosives in the main more searchable. Of course, Mentor has to sadly be cut to make Board more reliable, and hence the secondary plan of Bridge is used. I'm thinking that replacing some of the Baubles with Lodestone Baubles may be better, because Bridge + drawing whole deck on opponent's upkeep is not really a combo. >.>
    Writing:

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  19. #239
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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by ChemicalBurns View Post
    Essentially a cantrip in our deck, it can smooth out draws pretty effectively (unfortunately can't find Salvagers). Any calculations on the minimum number of hits we need to make this good?
    That list is kind of fascinating; thanks for posting that.

    Making the simplifying assumption of removing the card from the deck and leaving the other 59 cards in place, to the first order question of "what number of hits correspond to what chances of not whiffing", you can save yourself a little bit of the effort and steal Frank Karsten's chart for the same question as it applies to Commune with Dinosaurs.

    http://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe-w...09/Commune.jpg

    Mainboard, the list you link runs 40 Historic cards, so the chances of it Whiffing are exceedingly low. Even the Mono W list you posted most recently runs 37 Historic cards by my count, so Board the Weatherlight is already far and away unlikely to miss. If your metric for 'good' is (digs you 5 cards deeper looking for your key piece and does not whiff) the list you're running already easily hits that bar.

    Lets take your same list though from 5-16 and change the bar so you want to hit a card other than Opal, Petal, Baubles or Lands, as these cards are likely to have the greatest diminishing returns as the game progresses. Assuming we count Inventor's Fair as below-threshold, that still puts us north of 80%, higher if we consider it a good hit, which in practice I often would.

    Frankly, if you're already running a list with Karn, Board the Weatherlight's ability just to "dig for action" is already pretty darn good, and the chances of it whiffing entirely are very, very low. What I think is important to keep in mind though is that this is leaning more heavily into the fair plan of the deck than the combo plan. BtW into Bauble is obviously great for Mentor, and the increased accessibility of Karn is notable, but the card only helps in digging for one particular half of the combo and the far more naturally resilient half at that.

    Here's where I start to be more skeptical towards the card though. Generally if I'm playing an Ancient-Stirrings type card, it's because I want to assemble a combo or access a reactive card of one form or another. 'Digging for fair action' seems a little questionable when the card itself could just be another reasonable action card, and in the scenarios above we're just talking about the card's ability to replace itself with a card that meets this criteria. Few of the cards we're running in the deck mainboard are reactive, so if we put aside the combo aspect of the deck, cantrips are naturally less useful for us than for decks with a higher density of answers.

    I think the dream scenario for the card would be this: You'd want the card to reliably hit two different pieces of action for you to choose between, and then rest easy knowing that the card also could help dig for LED and at remarkably high odds still convert into a Bauble or Manasource if all of this failed to come together just so that you wouldn't have to reasonably worry about whiffing. Well as we already saw by stealing Karsten's math, we already hit those last two benchmarks, so let's consider the first.

    Looking at your 5-16 Monowhite list, let's say that our consistently valuable "action" in this list is 4x Ballista, 4x Chalice, 3x Karn, 1x EE, so 16 cards out of 59.

    Chance n=0 (43/59)(42/58)(41/57)(40/56)(39/55) ~ 0.1923 (I don't know how to write in summation notation in this text field, so just doing it like this seemed fine.)
    Chance n=1 (1-0.1923)(43/58)(42/57)(41/56)(40/55) ~ 0.2349
    Chance n=2 (1-0.1923-0.2349)(43/57)(42/56)(41/55) ~ 0.2416
    Chance n=3 (1-0.1923-0.2349-0.2416)(43/56)(42/55) ~ 0.1942
    Chance n=4 (1-0.1923-0.2349-0.2416-0.1942)(43/55) ~ 0.1071
    Chance n=5 (1-0.1923-0.2349-0.2416-0.1942-0.1071) ~ 0.0299

    ... Okay, Chance n=5 should be a lot less than 0.0299, so a lot of error has entered the math here just typing this manually into the calculator and compounding our rounding errors, but the logic and most of the rough proportions seem fine, so as a Fermi-style approximation it should serve.

    n=0 and n=1 won't serve the threshold we were talking about so already that's a little bit over 42% of probability space that doesn't get us the kind of options we're looking for. At n=2, if we divide out "hits" into 3 buckets (Ballista/Chalice/Karn+EE) and we say we don't want duplicates from the same bucket, we're going to lose about 1/3rd of that probability space as well, so now we're up to about 48% non-ideal behavior.

    So, super-rough approximation: If we were to throw Board the Weatherlight into your 5-16 Mono W list (in place of a non-Historic card), it would almost certainly replace itself, it would always help dig towards the LED if you needed it to combo-off, about 80% of the time it would replace itself with a highly valuable "action" card in a fair game, and somewhere around 50% of the time you'd get some actual selection out of it.

    Just super first impressions, I think it's playable, but it so unreliably provides you the kind of selection you want I don't think it's overly impressive - it's often just going to show you one card that's relevant in the current board-state, and in a deck so much more oriented towards 'questions' than 'answers', generating a question without a very high level of selection seems ... marginal. Still, I wouldn't discount the utility of a reliable piece of action that also helps dig for an LED.

    After having given it some consideration, if I was on the Mono-W list, I think I'd want to try it as a one-of. I wouldn't want to run 2, because quite often it's just replacing itself with a card of moderate quality at the cost of some tempo, but the ability to turn one of the deck's threats into a less consistent threat while also seeing 5 more cards with respect to one half of your combo (not to mention highly valuable sideboard cards that happen to be historic) seems potentially pretty great.

    And really, I've never been entirely sold on 4x Ballista, so 3x Ballista 1x BtW seems like a direction I'd want to experiment in if I was Mono W.

    Just some initial thoughts on the card. I think you already are running enough hits to make the first copy "good", but I'd be leery of running 4x of a cantrip that isn't actually that impressive in assembling the combo and that provides dubious selection.

  20. #240

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    That list is kind of fascinating; thanks for posting that.

    ...

    Just some initial thoughts on the card. I think you already are running enough hits to make the first copy "good", but I'd be leery of running 4x of a cantrip that isn't actually that impressive in assembling the combo and that provides dubious selection.
    Thank you so much for this! Exactly the kind of in-depth analysis I was looking for, I too am skeptical concerning it but will likely give it a go (as a one or two-of to begin with). Let's try this kind of list:

    Creatures: (12)
    4 Monastery Mentor
    4 Walking Ballista
    4 Auriok Salvagers

    Non-Creature Spells: (29)
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Urza's Bauble
    4 Mishra's Bauble
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    2 Karn, Scion of Urza
    2 Board the Weatherlight
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Mox Opal
    1 Engineered Explosives

    Lands: (19)
    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 City of Traitors
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Ancient Den
    1 Karakas
    1 Inventors' Fair
    2 Plains

    Sideboard: (15)
    2 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Sanctum Prelate
    2 Seal of Cleansing
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    2 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Karn, Scion of Urza
    1 Engineered Explosives
    2 Warping Wail

    Sideboard feels a little soft to Storm still and still experimenting with the Bridge (maybe it should just be a one-of - with BtW and Fair to find it could be worthwhile running one-ofs like it?). Also have cut Containment Priest - haven't found it particularly useful outside of S&S and Prelate does as a good a job. Warping Wail and Bridge should also provide more SB cards to board in.
    Writing:

    Also podcast with Stevestamopz and Speedbump_NZ on The Salt Mine.

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