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Thread: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

  1. #181
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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Awesome run-down. Thanks!

    One last question for the forum: when are you boarding in the two StP if you run them? I have struggled to find the right situation for them and would love to hear when people find them invaluable.

  2. #182

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Lot of great discussion here. What have people thought about Tasigur? I don’t have a lot of matches of experience but I’ve found him unimpressive.

    Played on Wednesday and went 2-2. Lost a very close one to miracles with sideboard humility (ouch!), but I was able to EE for 4 with that and Jace out. Also lost to a very boring Omnitell match and just didn’t draw anything relevant. Had containment priest when he show and tell’d omniscience. Won against UR delver and infect. Had a very close match against the UR deck until I was able to play pontiff.

    How are people sideboarding? I have shaved Dark Confidants against removal heavy decks and some combo pieces when I’m expecting to play more of a mentor game plan.

  3. #183

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by carlinms View Post
    Lot of great discussion here. What have people thought about Tasigur? I don’t have a lot of matches of experience but I’ve found him unimpressive.
    I played about 20 games with him and found him lackluster as well. He just comes in at the wrong time and is the worst flip to bob ever. I cut him long ago for a 4th freebooter, which i think should be a collective brutality.

  4. #184

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmiccoil View Post

    I have found Eldrazi, Show + Tell, and Moon Stompy to be miserable. I haven't tested at all against Lands but do notice that Punishing Fire decks definitely hamper our "fair" plan quite a bit.
    Against eldrazi the best bet to kill their chalice on 0 is to run engineered explosives to break their chalice asap. honestly, sometimes their deck is just faster than ours, but the opposite is also true.

    S&T i haven't had much problems yet, i have a second karakas in the SB for this match up and for lands/turbodepths (my meta has like 4-5 potential marit lage players). if you aren't running freebooter, that's the main reason why you are having difficulty with this match up. sneak attack is the main card to worry about, sometimes they cast show &tell for emrakul, and you get to play your salvagers a turn or 2 earlier to combo-kill them on the following turn. getting chalice on 1 also disrupts them from digging for the right pieces. Its definitely a high tension match-up since it feels like either deck can just win any turn.

    Moon stompy is rough. I've managed to dodge it so I don't have too much to say here. As a previous moon player myself though, I'd say the main threat is monastery mentor unless i manage to draw my board wipes, but man, sometimes you just don't draw them. I'd focus on drawing as many cards as possible (keep bobs in) so you can just combo kill them. Also prioritize hands with petal/opal for obvious reasons.

  5. #185

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Hi! Never played the deck, but i play a lot of stompy, so i lurk here some times.
    I was just wondering, has some of you guys considered going 3-4-5c?
    I see the debate here is which color is the best to support white. I'd like to point out that every creature that has been considered viable in this topic is also a human type. So maybe a Cavern of Souls + Unclaimed Territory setup could help? Instead of debating whether trinket mage is better than imperial recruiter or not, you could just run both. It's not like you play a lot of basics anyway.

    Edit: I know you lose the ability to reanimate LED from the graveyard. Does this happen so frequently?

  6. #186

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Cave View Post
    Hi! Never played the deck, but i play a lot of stompy, so i lurk here some times.
    I was just wondering, has some of you guys considered going 3-4-5c?
    I see the debate here is which color is the best to support white. I'd like to point out that every creature that has been considered viable in this topic is also a human type. So maybe a Cavern of Souls + Unclaimed Territory setup could help? Instead of debating whether trinket mage is better than imperial recruiter or not, you could just run both. It's not like you play a lot of basics anyway.

    Edit: I know you lose the ability to reanimate LED from the graveyard. Does this happen so frequently?
    The second-best gold land we have access to is actually Spire of Industry (as noted in angelbaka's builds), since it can be gold when needed and colourless otherwise. The artifact requirement is pretty easy to achieve. The deck becomes a bit more prone to Wasteland (then again, it's already very prone, so that may not be such a big thing) but it's true that you could have the grindy ability of both Bob and Recruiter in the same deck. Trinket Mage is also an option but that's really too many slow and clunky tutors. Especially since finding LED isn't actually the most critical part of the deck. I think it's less-so colour considerations holding back a 3+ colour version, but more so deck space.

    Speaking of lands, how many have people been playing and what are their experiences? I have been advocating 18-19 recently, one of which is always an Inventors' Fair as a pseudo-tutor. Though I have seen some builds going even lower. I think this is feasible once you're running all 12 Baubles, but now that I am on typically 9-10 18-19 has felt much more comfortable.

  7. #187
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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by ChemicalBurns View Post
    Speaking of lands, how many have people been playing and what are their experiences? I have been advocating 18-19 recently, one of which is always an Inventors' Fair as a pseudo-tutor. Though I have seen some builds going even lower. I think this is feasible once you're running all 12 Baubles, but now that I am on typically 9-10 18-19 has felt much more comfortable.
    I have found 18 to be serviceable with 8 baubles, 4 petals and 3 opals. I think there's a slight tension between running more Lodestone Baubles at the expense of lands with the added cost to activate them.

  8. #188

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    I went X-3 at SCG Worchester. I decimated 4 fair decks and lost to Tezz, Doomsday and Goblins with chalice. I also played a nifty mirror match at the end, but neither of us was taking that game too seriously. The only games I lost to fair decks started with T1 thoughtseize, T2 Hymn, which this deck just can't beat.

    Tezz went turn 1 chalice on 0 then Transmute for chalice on 0 twice. Next Game he goes Turn 0 leyline, T1 Chalice on zero -> manaRock. I had a recruiter and had to decide between recruiting Warpriest of Thune or Artifact destroyer, but it didn't matter becase next turn he helms me. :(

    Against Doomsday, I won game 1 and mulled to hate games 2-3 (chalice and canonist both games) and he says, "Don't care", plays land, petal, petal and wins or uses Hurkyl's and wins. :(
    Note: My opponent won the third game after I drew 45 cards on his upkeep, which makes me wonder if mindbreak trap doesn't deserve a spot in the SB.

    Against Goblins I didn't know what he's playing and played a T1 chalice. He then plays cavern, lackey chalice on 0. Damn it. They were tight games that I could have played a little bit better.

    Conclusions: As I reflect upon my games I realize that the reason Bob is comparable to recruiter is that Bob makes the mentor backup plan much stronger. So now that big tournaments are over I will test black. Also, from now on I will drop the 2nd cannonist for a sanctum prelate in the SB.
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  9. #189

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    I have updated bits and pieces of the primer with newer card choices.

    However, I would appreciate anyone who has insights about matchups to post up your experiences here and I will get to incorporating these into the primer. I would probably like opinions on:

    Delver decks (this, in my mind, are favourable with both Chalice/combo/fair plan all strong).
    DRS midrange decks (again, relatively favourable)
    Miracles (Chalice is great, other plans can be awkward with their wealth of removal)
    Death & Taxes/Maverick (slightly favourable to medium. Thalia is a pain and they can brickwall a Mentor draw sometimes. Ballista really is huge).
    Elves (Chalice + Ballista is very good. I feel this is favourable but can get punked out by random Natural Orders).
    Eldrazi (unfavourable, can fix this up post-board though, Explosives is great)
    Dragon Stompy (the hardest piece of crap on the planet because of additional locks in Trinisphere. Unlike Eldrazi, we can't punk them out with Moons either).
    Storm (medium, game one is often Chalice or bust, since we are slower than them, post-board Storm has a lot of answers to our permanent-based locks).
    Lands (medium. Can punk them out with Mentor draws before PFire can even answer them, but they have plenty of answers to that. Usually going for Salvagers who is not prone to Fire and comboing out is the best g1 route to victory. Post-board they have Spheres/Chalice and this gets harder, sometimes need to rely on alternative plans such as Magus/Mentor beats)
    Dredge/Reanimator (usually reliant on having hate. Leyline is good, Crypt can be okay especially against Dredge since it can be looped, but is kind of lacklustre against Reanimator variants)
    Sneak & Show (tough. Their kill is fast, gets around Chalice, but post-board we have a lot of good options)

    There is honestly probably a lot more I am forgetting (Burn other fringe decks etc.) but hopefully we can get a very full primer up and running.

    Peace!

  10. #190

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by ChemicalBurns View Post
    I have updated bits and pieces of the primer with newer card choices.

    However, I would appreciate anyone who has insights about matchups to post up your experiences here and I will get to incorporating these into the primer. I would probably like opinions on:

    Delver decks (this, in my mind, are favourable with both Chalice/combo/fair plan all strong).
    DRS midrange decks (again, relatively favourable)
    Miracles (Chalice is great, other plans can be awkward with their wealth of removal)
    Death & Taxes/Maverick (slightly favourable to medium. Thalia is a pain and they can brickwall a Mentor draw sometimes. Ballista really is huge).
    Elves (Chalice + Ballista is very good. I feel this is favourable but can get punked out by random Natural Orders).
    Eldrazi (unfavourable, can fix this up post-board though, Explosives is great)
    Dragon Stompy (the hardest piece of crap on the planet because of additional locks in Trinisphere. Unlike Eldrazi, we can't punk them out with Moons either).
    Storm (medium, game one is often Chalice or bust, since we are slower than them, post-board Storm has a lot of answers to our permanent-based locks).
    Lands (medium. Can punk them out with Mentor draws before PFire can even answer them, but they have plenty of answers to that. Usually going for Salvagers who is not prone to Fire and comboing out is the best g1 route to victory. Post-board they have Spheres/Chalice and this gets harder, sometimes need to rely on alternative plans such as Magus/Mentor beats)
    Dredge/Reanimator (usually reliant on having hate. Leyline is good, Crypt can be okay especially against Dredge since it can be looped, but is kind of lacklustre against Reanimator variants)
    Sneak & Show (tough. Their kill is fast, gets around Chalice, but post-board we have a lot of good options)

    There is honestly probably a lot more I am forgetting (Burn other fringe decks etc.) but hopefully we can get a very full primer up and running.

    Peace!
    Depending on what you splash the matchuhups can be wildly different.
    Example, Red w/ Moons makes Eldrazi a coin-toss to favorable.
    Ex. Black is much better against D&T if you side enough Pontiffs. Also, Black is much better against matchups that rely heavy on the backup plan. Ect. Ect.
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  11. #191
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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Delver decks (this, in my mind, are favourable with both Chalice/combo/fair plan all strong).

    Grixis Delver is incredibly favorable. The inability of DRS to interact with LED is huge and the only GY hate out of the board is usually Surgical, which is easy to play around. I have found the deck to be vulnerable to YP + 1,000,000 tokens and double-TNN draws, but that is it. Ballista is great removal before Delver does anything and can chump Gurmag for quite a while.

    U/R Delver is also a favorable matchup. They have great difficulty killing Salvagers and they can't really interact with the combo. They have a fast clock but it can easily be disrupted with Chalice. PoP is not great, though.

    RUG Delver is a bit more difficult if no Chalice resolves--but is super favorable if it does. Mandrils having trample matters.

    BUG Delver also seems very favorable, unless they can resolve a

    DRS midrange decks (again, relatively favourable)

    Agree. Decks with slow clocks are generally good or us. EE against 4c Control is very good. Hymn is annoying, but Baubles allow us to play around it to some extent.

    Miracles (Chalice is great, other plans can be awkward with their wealth of removal)

    Surgical Snap/Surgical is a problem out of the board. Prelate is great here as another way to fight their cantrips. Terminus can make Mentor more awkward. I would say we are definitely favored by a lot, but they have the tools to beat us.

    Death & Taxes/Maverick (slightly favourable to medium. Thalia is a pain and they can brickwall a Mentor draw sometimes. Ballista really is huge).

    Agree. I think Maverick is a lot easier than DnT, so I might separate these. Revoker and Prelate on zero sucks far more out of DNT than Maverick. Maverick's GY hate is not usually RiP, so that also helps.

    Elves (Chalice + Ballista is very good. I feel this is favourable but can get punked out by random Natural Orders).


    Agree.

    Eldrazi (unfavourable, can fix this up post-board though, Explosives is great)

    Eldrazi sucks. They are too fast and can disrupt us by putting Chalice on zero. Mentor is terrible on defense so we just need to cross our fingers that we have EE or a Disenchant effect to get rid of Chalice and they either don't have Leyline or we can blow it up. The only benefit is that we can easily board out our chalices to bring in any type of interaction we want.

    Dragon Stompy (the hardest piece of crap on the planet because of additional locks in Trinisphere. Unlike Eldrazi, we can't punk them out with Moons either).

    Basically unwinnable unless (1) they have a slow clock, (2) we can get an opal into play, (3) we can EE on 3 and (4) they don't have leyline. So, basically, as I said, unwinnable.

    Storm (medium, game one is often Chalice or bust, since we are slower than them, post-board Storm has a lot of answers to our permanent-based locks).

    I think we are slightly favored post-board but only if on KSF and Prelate. Canonist is a trap because Hurkyls is already too good against us.

    Lands (medium. Can punk them out with Mentor draws before PFire can even answer them, but they have plenty of answers to that. Usually going for Salvagers who is not prone to Fire and comboing out is the best g1 route to victory. Post-board they have Spheres/Chalice and this gets harder, sometimes need to rely on alternative plans such as Magus/Mentor beats)

    Yep.

    Dredge/Reanimator (usually reliant on having hate. Leyline is good, Crypt can be okay especially against Dredge since it can be looped, but is kind of lacklustre against Reanimator variants)

    I would separate these. I think we are very favored against Dredge with Containment Priests, Crypts/Leyline and other random hate, like EE for the Zombies.

    I think we are unfavored against B/R Reanimator. I may be the only proponent of Crypt left, but the fact that they can't just T1 Reverent Silence away our hate matters. Containment Priest is good but not lights-out. I think we are slightly favored if we win the die-roll and unfavored if we lose it.

    We have a much better matchup against U/B Reanimator. It is slower and Cavern helps us cast most of our disruptive pieces.

    Sneak & Show (tough. Their kill is fast, gets around Chalice, but post-board we have a lot of good options)

    Not a fun matchup at all. We can get lucky and combo them before they kill us, but their pieces are very redundant. I would say we are even more unfavored against Omni-builds.

    There is honestly probably a lot more I am forgetting (Burn other fringe decks etc.) but hopefully we can get a very full primer up and running.

    I think Burn is slightly favorable if we can find the right pieces. Chalice is great, Ballista to kill Eidelon is essential, and Prelate can really help. If they land an Eidelon and we have no way to get rid of it, we are in trouble. Chalice on 2 is more essential than on 1.

    Sneak + Breach is very difficult with Chalice on zero, but we have some game if we run basics, get them, and can cast Containment Priest. Their actual GY hate is usually fairly minimal.

    We are highly favored against Infect, although they can still sneak through some quick kills. I had the unfortunate chance to play against a double-Veridian Corruptor build of the deck and that certainly sucked.

    We have a medium matchup against Aluren. They don't interact with our combo that well so it is usually just a race to combo-off first. Mentor is not great because of Strix and Abrupt Decay. The Food Chain matchup is pretty similar.

    We are favored against fair Stoneblade / Deathblade decks. They have some disruption, but ways to blow up artifacts and EE to kill TNN is very good.

    Obviously we are fairly unfavored against T1 combo like Belcher and Oops.

    Aggro Loam is very difficult. Wasteland is very good against us and Loaming back Wasteland is even better. Chalice on zero sucks and they can eat our GY with Ooze. Swords post-board is also an annoyingly-efficient answer to Salvagers.


    Deaths Shadow is favorable because Chalice on 1 and EE are very good against them.

    Jund is not fun without the amount of removal. The combo is still generally online but they have the tools to clear our board.

    Turbo Depths is a total toss-up. Chalice is great, but they can just make Marit Lage. We have on way to interact directly with their combo, so its really just a race.

    12-Post is a surprisingly difficult (there are a bunch of players up near me). If we can find the combo in the first three turns, we win but they often have mainboard Pithing Needle, which means we need to find EE or just try to beat them down. Our plan B beat-down is not that great because of cards like Ugin or Moment's Peace out of the board.

    Enchantress is definitely in our favor. EE and Chalice are both excellent. RiP is annoying, but we can generally do what we want combo-wise if they can't find it.

    I have found Pox to be utterly miserable.

  12. #192

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    While reading over this week's issue of "This week in Legacy", it occurred to me that you could potentially build a mono-white bomberman list that runs Palace Jailer as the grinding card of choice instead of the 4-drop Karn or dark confidant. Although the weakness lies in it's heavy mana cost (4-drops should win the game amrite?), it does allow for a much more stable manabase, which can also support cards like Blessed Alliance very well, as well as other mono-white SB cards.

    My only qualm is that you lose freebooter (and collective brutality if you run it, I don't own it sadly and regret not grabbing a few prior to it's spike), which has been key in winning many match ups since running him.

    Anyone have thoughts on this?

  13. #193
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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by mambosong View Post
    My only qualm is that you lose freebooter (and collective brutality if you run it, I don't own it sadly and regret not grabbing a few prior to it's spike), which has been key in winning many match ups since running him.

    Anyone have thoughts on this?
    Probably a bit of a dumb question, but why is Freebooter so good? I mean, it's not that different than Tidehollow Sculler and I don't recall that ever being so indispensable.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  14. #194

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Probably a bit of a dumb question, but why is Freebooter so good? I mean, it's not that different than Tidehollow Sculler and I don't recall that ever being so indispensable.
    Flies, and human for cavern which makes the mana cost much easier to handle as well as harder to disrupt.
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  15. #195
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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosque View Post
    Flies, and human for cavern which makes the mana cost much easier to handle as well as harder to disrupt.
    I had forgotten about the Cavern aspect, being a Human and all, but that makes sense. Honestly, Tidehollow being an Artifact is more of a liability than anything else, so trading that for a relevant type and flying seems pretty good. Too bad I own approximately zero cards from Ixalan,
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  16. #196

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    I had forgotten about the Cavern aspect, being a Human and all, but that makes sense. Honestly, Tidehollow being an Artifact is more of a liability than anything else, so trading that for a relevant type and flying seems pretty good. Too bad I own approximately zero cards from Ixalan,
    It's also relatively easy to cast turn 1 to take the opponents removal, following up with a turn 2 mentor and baubles letting you aggro out.

    I'm going to test 2-3x palace jailer MB to see if there's anything there for that card in this deck. It'll make out Sneak and Show and Miracles match up easier (not that we necessarily had problems with either deck). I'm also going to test 2x blessed alliance in the SB since my meta is filled with lands / turbo depths players, which is nice to have incidental life gain against a future 20/20 attack and against burn.

  17. #197

    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Hey quick question here, with the reported success in this thread with both the WR and BW versions of this deck, is there any merit in running a WRB version that takes the best of both worlds to hedge a bigger win? I ask this, because I think the main advantage of running WR is tutoring a magus of the moon for a free win, which would be non-bo while running 3 colours, but I wonder if we can get away with it due to our mana rocks providing us colors (I often find that when the opponent sides in blood moon, i don't care and just keep playing as usual for the win in BW bomberman).

    I'm thinking along the lines of this:

    Creatures (22):
    3x Auriok Salvagers
    4x Monastery Mentor
    4x Walking Ballista
    3x Kitesail Freebooter
    3x Dark Confidant
    1x Magus of the Moon
    4x Imperial Recruiter

    Artifacts (20)
    4x Chalice of the Void
    4x Lotus Petal
    3x Mishra's Bauble
    3x Urza's Bauble
    4x Lion's Eye Diamond
    3x Mox Opal

    Lands (18):
    3x Cavern of Souls
    3x Ancient Tomb
    2x City of Traitors
    3x Scrubland
    2x Plateau
    1x Plains
    4x Fetch Lands


    I'm still working on my playset of imperial recruiters, so I haven't tested this list yet, are there any obvious flaws you guys see?

  18. #198
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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by mambosong View Post
    I'm still working on my playset of imperial recruiters, so I haven't tested this list yet, are there any obvious flaws you guys see?
    A couple thoughts: without an Ancient Den, turning on Opal may be a bit more tricky, which is a problem if you plan to maindeck Magus of the Moon. In general I think maindeck Magus is questionable. Even if you fetch a plains first, the later Plateau to cast Magus means you will not have any black sources. Obviously Opal solves all of these problems, but it puts added pressure to maintain metalcraft throughout the rest of the match.

    The flexibility of four Recruiters is certainly great, but it puts you a turn behind. I think you shouldn't try anything less than four Salvagers.

    As to the possibility of a four-color build, I have had some success with an esper build that splashes blue for two Trinket Mages. I run a single Tundra, two Scrublands and three fetches, but I also run two Ancient Dens to help with the three Opals. I suggest running two Recruiters, a single Plateau and then two Scrubs with three Fetchlands or one Den and one Plains.

  19. #199
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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by That nice guy View Post
    Next Game he goes Turn 0 leyline, T1 Chalice on zero -> manaRock. I had a recruiter and had to decide between recruiting Warpriest of Thune or Artifact destroyer, but it didn't matter becase next turn he helms me. :(
    How did this work? Chalice counters Chalice...
    Chalice on 1

  20. #200
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    Re: Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

    Anyways going from ChemicalBurns' list in RW I wil probably play something similar to this in my LGS next week:
    //Lands
    2 Ancient Den
    3 Ancient Tomb
    1 Arid Mesa
    2 Ash Barrens
    4 Cavern of Souls
    2 City of Traitors
    1 Inventors' Fair
    1 Mountain
    1 Plains
    2 Plateau

    //Spells
    4 Chalice of the Void
    1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
    3 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 Lodestone Bauble
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Mishra's Bauble
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Urza's Bauble

    //Creatures
    3 Auriok Salvagers
    4 Imperial Recruiter
    1 Magus of the Moon
    4 Monastery Mentor
    4 Walking Ballista

    //Sideboard
    SB: 2 Containment Priest
    SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
    SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
    SB: 1 Manic Vandal
    SB: 1 Devout Witness
    SB: 1 Sanctum Prelate
    SB: 1 Magus of the Moon
    SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
    SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
    SB: 2 Fiery Confluence
    SB: 1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
    Chalice on 1

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