Hi everyone, just wanted to chime in and say CalebD went 5-0 in a mtgo league with a very vanilla mono-white list.
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Once you go Legacy...
I had a couple 4-1's yesterday. Also caught CalebD playing it again last night: https://clips.twitch.tv/EnticingAgreeableTarsierBudStar
This card's tension with Chalice probably means it won't immediately fit into this deck, but it seems insane with Sai just cranking out 4/4s every turn for 1 mana or as another inf mana sink
Maybe this is a direction the UW build can go in with Sai, Trinket Mage and playing FoW and more 1-drops instead of CotV.
Caleb's Bomberman coverage starts shortly after 3 hours and 13 minutes in.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/287617315?t=03h13m26s
Once you go Legacy...
Call me crazy but I think we're the best deck in the format that can utilize this (if it even does get utilized). 1 LED and a sol land can activate it, and we drop our hand crazy quick/don't care if our artifacts hit the GY. It doesn't even affect artifacts so we can keep our chalices, and refill our hand with all our baubles, and aside from mentor (in which case we're probably just winning) we play few creatures.
I think if anything it'd be a sideboard card, but instant speed nuking opponents hand / wrathing the board / armageddon is no joke.
Magus of the Disk is definitely marginal and should look to be replaced. I would be happy to test this card (or most any suggested card) in its place.
The only parts of the sideboard I currently feel comfortable with (Full-Color Build) are 3x Quicksmith Rebel, 2x Sanctum Prelate, 2x Manic Vandal, 1x Containment Priest, 1x Sorcerous Spyglass, 1x Tormod's Crypt, 1x (Surge Node / EE). The remaining ~3rd of the sideboard could use some development, and I've been spending the past couple weeks trying to figure that out.
Caleb is pretty deadset on no ensnaring bridge and straight mono white. I disagree on the bridges but he is better at this game than I. The deck feels more powerful either way, but I keep thinking about u/w or b/w.
Blue just for Sai and Trinket Mage doesn't seem worth it. Artificer's Intuition is interesting but likely not playable with trinket mage. Not sure.
Black works for Bob, freebooter, and what else?
I'd like to find some way in the 75 to repeatably kill. Executioner's Capsule? Big Improvise Demon (can't remember name but seems shitty)?
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Once you go Legacy...
I tried Ensnaring Bridge after learning firsthand it was nearly impossible to beat Eldrazi Stompy. Now I feel like the favorite in the matchup; they just can't beat that card. Also, Show and Tell can't remove a bridge through a chalice on 2 (Abrade, Echoing Truth). I was never sold on Swords to Plowshares in the board and have dropped them completely.
I liked Orzhov Pontiff in the BW deck before Karn came out. Casting non-human, colored spells isn't trivial, but I had a couple Collective Brutality in the board too.
I also think mono W is the best version though. I've enjoyed 1x Board the Weatherlight in the Lodestone Bauble/Mindstone slot online and thought about finding a space for one in the paper 60. I tested playing with 4x in a league and it was too slow and ate a lot of countermagic, but 1x feels really good.
FYI, it seems people are scooping to the combo much more often in MTGO leagues, which is so much appreciated. I think CalebD probably is to thank for this. I finally feel really good with my sideboard and that was only possible because I was able to play the deck online and try out many configurations.
I'll concede that Mono White should probably be considered the stock list at this point, as it is clearly the most popular and most likely to attract the attention of new players to the deck, but I remain unconvinced. Would you be able to share precisely what he said that you're referencing, or bring forward your own arguments in its favor and correct my own flawed thinking?
Here are my basic skepticisms on the Mono-White list:
It's less consistent, it has a greedier mana-curve, it has more air / less gas, it's more susceptible to counterspells, and its bad Game 1 matchups are worse because it has trouble accessing its sideboard cards (the lists I've seen look extremely weak to a Chalice on 0 or a Trinisphere).
I've played around with it before and have yet to be convinced. I am perfectly happy to be proven wrong though. What am I missing that makes up for these shortcomings?
I'll attempt to address those skepticisms from my experience piloting mono-W:
At assembling the combo, but it gains a more consistent back-up plan of grinding people out with ballistas or Karns. I think one draw of mono-W is reflective of how strong you believe ballista to be, since I've won a non-zero amount of games just by playing multiple ballistas and then riding them to victory.It's less consistent
Karn does make certain 4-drop heavy hands awkward, but the overall CMC of the mono-W build is still lower than the humans build. My personal experience has shown numerous times of having multiple 4-drops stranded in hand which is really annoying. Nothing worse than a hand of 2x Salvagers, Karn and then drawing another.it has a greedier mana-curve
Whereas humans is more susceptible to blood moon. I think it's a trade off and with 4x cavern I don't think either deck is that susceptible to counterspells.it's more susceptible to counterspells
I believe that's the case because those lists aren't necessarily playing around those cards, they're just jamming. I believe a mono-w build could quite easily construct a build that is strong vs Chalice/Sphere, and that would involve more EE and more non-0-cmc dig cards like board the weatherlight.and its bad Game 1 matchups are worse because it has trouble accessing its sideboard cards (the lists I've seen look extremely weak to a Chalice on 0 or a Trinisphere).
That said, I don't think I would play this deck period in a chalice-heavy meta, so see the proposition of trying to do so as a losing one.
Karakas is a great card.What am I missing that makes up for these shortcomings?
STP is a great sideboard card.
Mono-w can play prelate main to give a further edge vs combo.
Humans relies on spells-on-a-stick to shore up sb, whereas mono-w has cleaner answers like cast out / seal of cleansing. You're right that mono-w does have a harder time finding them, so sometimes mulligans are necessary.
Basic plains protects us from wasteland, blood moon, etc. I think humans build has a harder time with chalice on 0 + blood moon.
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So there it is. I don't think the humans build is worse than mono-w, I think they just operate very differently and have respective strengths and weaknesses.
It's probably worth pointing out that you're supporting a 'Basic Plains' build of the deck, while the Caleb Durward Mono-White list in question plays no basic lands.
This makes sense to me.
Only if you count Ballista as a 0-Drop. If you count it as it least a 2-drop, it definitely is Higher CMC.
I don't think I agree here, even ignoring the "they're playing all non-basics as well" thing and altering the list so they're playing plains. In such a match up, sure, they're running at least 5 more lands that produce W through a Moon, but I'm still running 7 Red Creatures, 8 - 12 Artifact Sources, and more than triple the answers to Chalice on 0 (again, compared to the "stock" lists).
I'm having a hard time seeing them as having an easier time in the Moon Stompy matchup just by boarding in a Disenchant and a Cast Out and running 5 plains.
Prelate's definitely great, but they don't even seem to be playing prelate, and that's something any Bomberman build could do equally well as long as they're not on like Sanctum of the Synod, so I don't really think that's in support of Mono-W specifically.
This is the other argument you put forth that does resonate well with me. If the argument is "You really want lots of Ballista, and you really want to Swords to Plowshares", than I don't know if I agree but that certainly resonates with me more than 4x Karn.
Karn is though regardless of Cavern, in fact Cavern increases the likelihood of him meeting up with counter-magic. Although to be fair he doesn't die to creature removal, so it's not like Confidant isn't also vulnerable.
I'm still mixed on some of the arguments presented, but thanks for presenting them. Mono-White has become popular enough that I think I needed the reality check to make sure I'm not being overly biased.
No, that's counting Ballista as a 2-drop. If you've changed your list since the last one you posted it may be different, but the decklists are the same aside from:Only if you count Ballista as a 0-Drop. If you count it as it least a 2-drop, it definitely is Higher CMC.
mono-w:
1 Mishra's Bauble (0)
1 Sanctum Prelate (3)
2 Karn (4)
3 Walking Ballista (2)
1 EE (cmc averaged at 1.5)
for total of avg cmc of 2.31
humans:
4 Dark Confidant (2)
2 Imperial Recruiter (3)
2 Trinket Mage (3)
for total avg cmc of 2.5
Since the rest of the deck is identical that puts mono-w at lower avg cmc. Even 3 Karn build is at 2.43. If you treat EE as 2 drop in 3 karn build cmc is exactly the same. But I agree avg cmc aside the curve considerations are real. Having more 0-2 drops to cast doesn't help you cast 4 drops.
I mean in a general sense of the deck operating at all. Mono-w can ignore a blood moon and carry on with its plans whereas humans needs an artifact mana source to do anything. Maybe you're more content to just find a Quicksmith Rebel and switch gears than I understand.I don't think I agree here, even ignoring the "they're playing all non-basics as well" thing and altering the list so they're playing plains. In such a match up, sure, they're running at least 5 more lands that produce W through a Moon, but I'm still running 7 Red Creatures, 8 - 12 Artifact Sources, and more than triple the answers to Chalice on 0 (again, compared to the "stock" lists).
Yeah I think the Durward build is very suboptimal for mono-w and his sideboard is imo egregiously bad.I'm having a hard time seeing them as having an easier time in the Moon Stompy matchup just by boarding in a Disenchant and a Cast Out and running 5 plains.
Gotch'ya. I was comparing it to the 4x Karn list that has become popular.
This might be why I'm being too skeptical. I've been seeing more people drift towards his list, and that's what I'm reacting to with some confusion.
Prelate and Two Karns seems much more like a Mainboard I'd like to be on, and if I heard a lot of people saying that was the best configuration, I think I'd more easily believe that.
Apologies, I'm only responding from my personal experience with the mono-w build and I had quickly shifted away from 4 Karn after 1 league probably for the same reasons you dislike him.
Caleb being Caleb probably explains some of the popularity surrounding his list. I think as-is it's inferior to the humans build.This might be why I'm being too skeptical. I've been seeing more people drift towards his list, and that's what I'm reacting to with some confusion.
Prelate and Two Karns seems much more like a Mainboard I'd like to be on, and if I heard a lot of people saying that was the best configuration, I think I'd more easily believe that.
I believe I'm skeptical of the humans build because I view tutoring answers as a negative (waste a tutor/mana on getting an answer) than a positive (have an answer to any problem). I should play with it more, but it's hard to pilot something that is at odds with my playstyle.
Once C18 comes out I will be back with the mono-w build at weeklies to play around with Magus of the Balance.
So I think Kaono has underlined something important in the conversation here.
For those not wanting to scroll back, Manroe referenced Caleb Durward being adamantly on Mono W, I expressed some skepticism directed at "The Mono White List", Kaono defended "Mono White" builds, and it became clear he was defending a rather different list than Caleb's "Mono White List", which he said he thought was very sub-optimal.
I think going forward, at least personally, I might want to amend my vocabulary here
Karn List -> (Mono W, Arifact Lands, 4x Karn)
Prelate White -> (Basic Plains, Karn / Prelate)
Humans -> (Confidant, Tutors, Unclaimed Territory)
UW -> (Sai, Trinket Mage)
UB -> (Confidant)
I'm currently a bit skeptical of The Karn List, which is what Caleb Durward was on to my most recent knowledge.
A "Prelate White" list, on the other hand, I don't share the same skepticism of.
Is there anyone here who is an adamant proponent of The Karn List who wants to speak to its advantages?
I haven't had any mana or tempo issues in the deck (EDIT: Of this sort. I have been Ghost Quartered to death), given that it's a Sol-Land + Opal + Petal deck that also turns on LED for practical use if need be.
That being said I'm not really trying to push it on other people. I have no problem with people being skeptical of my lists - if anything that generates useful criticisms - I just don't want to be undue-ly skeptical of other people's lists, because that's represents me being sub-optimal in a way that's harder to detect and correct on my own.
Also the Sideboard definitely needs a tune-up, and I'm currently experimenting with a couple Warping Wail, particularly because they do double duty in a Sneak/Show world where Arcane Artisan is the new toy.
Thanks for the criticisms and counter-arguments.
EDIT:
It's all good; thanks for clarifying.
I love 4x Karn! I think CalebD should swap his two Horizon Canopy for another Karakas and a basic Plains, though. And I'm still running 1x Board the Weatherlight in the Lodestone slot when playing online, as the 5th Karn or a single card that double triggers Mentor.
Went undefeated at a $1K yesterday, had some interesting plays during the tourney:
- went off "low tide" drawing down to 4 cards left in library with Urza's Bauble before getting Salvagers needled. I had boarded out the Mentors and didn't bring in the Seals/Disenchant, so played a Karn and all the artifacts including Chalice on 2 for the shatter in his hand and a Ballista to take care of his two creatures. Won with a 20/20 construct with 2 cards left in the deck.
- upticked Karn in a single match more than I had upticked him in all my previous matches combined (FYI, you hardly ever uptick Karn, maybe this is why you guys don't get 4x Karn, you're going up too much). The matchup was Pox and putting a single, 0-cmc creature into play vs so many edicts and Ratchet Bombs seemed worthless. Karn singlehandedly won it for me. It was certainly nice being able to immediately replace each Karn he was actually able to remove.
- game 3 of a win-and-in match vs Sneak and Show, on the play, I went turn-1 Tomb, Petal, Opal, LED, Salvagers, Portuguese Lodestone Bauble to force 100 draws during his first upkeep. The confusion was so tasty. I highly recommend picking up a non-english Lodestone Bauble.
My sideboard for the tourney was:
- 3x Containment Priest
- 4x Ethersworn Canonist
- 3x Ensnaring Bridge
- 2x Tormod's Crypt
- 2x Seal of Cleansing
- 1x Disenchant
I don't understand the opinion of the 52-card deck with all 4-of's list being less consistent, or being worse vs counter magic. Turn-1 Chalice is something they have to deal with. Turn 1 or 2 Mentor is something they have to deal with (and is sometimes uncounterable, too). Turn 2 or 3 Karn is something they have to deal with. And if they manage to deal with all of these, they have nothing left and you just combo them afterward.
MonoR Stompy seems to be dropping meta-share and Eldrazi Stompy simply can't beat Ensnaring Bridge. Sure, there's a few other low-tier Chalice decks, but what're you going to do. You cannot convince me that Manic Vandal and untutorable Quicksmith Rebels over Disenchants vastly improve your Chalice/Trinisphere matchups. Fiery Confluence is the card that wrecks us the most anyway since it deals with any and every threat we could produce, same as humans.
Moving on, I was thinking about a Winter Orb or two in the board for Miracles, but I could see Balance Wizard being insane, and I want to try him out. "Deal with this uncounterable guy immediately, or you're going to be discarding 4 cards and sacrificing most your lands!"
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