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Thread: Leovold + careful study or brainstorm

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    Leovold + careful study or brainstorm

    With Leovold in play. Can an opponent cast a careful study, fail to draw cards, but still be able to discard?

    Also, with Leovold in play. Can an opponent brainstorm, fail to draw, but still place 2 cards back on the library?

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    Re: Leovold + careful study or brainstorm

    Yes, they have to perform as much of the text as possible with either cantrip (discard 2 or put 2 back). The more common occurrence would probably be a proactive prison approach where the Leovold player runs Geier Reach Sanitarium or Cephalid Coliseum so opponent either never gets to draw and keep a card on their turn (Geier on upkeep) or draw 0-1, discard 3 (Coliseum).

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    Re: Leovold + careful study or brainstorm

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Yes, they have to perform as much of the text as possible with either cantrip (discard 2 or put 2 back). The more common occurrence would probably be a proactive prison approach where the Leovold player runs Geier Reach Sanitarium or Cephalid Coliseum so opponent either never gets to draw and keep a card on their turn (Geier on upkeep) or draw 0-1, discard 3 (Coliseum).
    Thanks, that's what I thought.

    I was playing UB Reanimator vs 4c Control. Leovold was in play, I careful studied to bin a fatty and we weren't sure how that should play out.

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    Re: Leovold + careful study or brainstorm

    What about Leovold vs Notion Thief? I'm assuming the Notion Thief would not allow Leovold's controller to draw extra cards, and Levold would stop Notion Thief's controller from drawing the stolen Leovold trigger - effectively cancel each other out.
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    Re: Leovold + careful study or brainstorm

    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    What about Leovold vs Notion Thief? I'm assuming the Notion Thief would not allow Leovold's controller to draw extra cards, and Levold would stop Notion Thief's controller from drawing the stolen Leovold trigger - effectively cancel each other out.
    Not quite. In most cases they do cancel out, but Notion Thief would still be able to steal a single draw from under a Leovold as long as Notion Thief's controller hasn't yet drawn a card during the current turn.

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    Re: Leovold + careful study or brainstorm

    How about my Leovold vs my opponent's Sylvan Library? Opponent verbally indicates they are choosing to draw with Library. What happens? I've received two different rulings at two different events...

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    Re: Leovold + careful study or brainstorm

    Quote Originally Posted by Misplayer View Post
    How about my Leovold vs my opponent's Sylvan Library? Opponent verbally indicates they are choosing to draw with Library. What happens? I've received two different rulings at two different events...
    If they elected to use the may ability, they will draw zero extra cards, then have to pay 4 life or put back the card they drew for turn. The second part of the Library trigger is not contingent on cards actually being drawn, but rather on electing to chose yes to the "may" ability.
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    Re: Leovold + careful study or brainstorm

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    If they elected to use the may ability, they will draw zero extra cards, then have to pay 4 life or put back the card they drew for turn. The second part of the Library trigger is not contingent on cards actually being drawn, but rather on electing to chose yes to the "may" ability.
    EDIT: Leovold isn't a replacement effect, it's a "can't" effect. Since the "X" in "You may X. If you do, Y." is a cost, you can't choose to pay it at all.
    Last edited by cdr; 06-21-2017 at 01:00 AM.
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    Re: Leovold + careful study or brainstorm

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    If they elected to use the may ability, they will draw zero extra cards, then have to pay 4 life or put back the card they drew for turn. The second part of the Library trigger is not contingent on cards actually being drawn, but rather on electing to chose yes to the "may" ability.
    I thought with Leovold out, your opponent can't opt to use the ability.

    101.2. When a rule or effect allows or directs something to happen, and another effect states that it can’t happen, the “can’t” effect takes precedence.
    Example: If one effect reads “You may play an additional land this turn” and another reads “You can’t play land cards this turn,” the effect that precludes you from playing lands wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misplayer View Post
    Opponent verbally indicates they are choosing to draw with Library. What happens? I've received two different rulings at two different events...
    You say they can't use the ability. Allowing them to use it would be failure to maintain game state?
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    Re: Leovold + careful study or brainstorm

    Quote Originally Posted by 16km View Post
    I thought with Leovold out, your opponent can't opt to use the ability.

    101.2. When a rule or effect allows or directs something to happen, and another effect states that it can’t happen, the “can’t” effect takes precedence.
    Example: If one effect reads “You may play an additional land this turn” and another reads “You can’t play land cards this turn,” the effect that precludes you from playing lands wins.

    You say they can't use the ability. Allowing them to use it would be failure to maintain game state?
    You're right, this is the section that applies to Leovold: http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#R61416

    I missed that Leovold is a "can't" effect rather than a replacement effect, and updated my post above.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
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    Re: Leovold + careful study or brainstorm

    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    EDIT: Leovold isn't a replacement effect, it's a "can't" effect. Since the "X" in "You may X. If you do, Y." is a cost, you can't choose to pay it at all.
    Hmm, didn't realize that the first clause of Library would be a cost. My bad.
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    Re: Leovold + careful study or brainstorm

    Wait, what part exactly is the cost of Sylvan Library?
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    Re: Leovold + careful study or brainstorm

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Wait, what part exactly is the cost of Sylvan Library?
    The first sentence is a cost to the dependent part "If you do." It's a little weird and threw me off, but it is correct.

    Basically, if your opponent has a Leovold, you Library literally does nothing.
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    Re: Leovold + careful study or brainstorm

    We can't be talking about the same cost: effect that I'm thinking of, right?
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    Re: Leovold + careful study or brainstorm

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    We can't be talking about the same cost: effect that I'm thinking of, right?
    Right, that is what confused me at first, but the rules are pretty clear about it:

    117.12. Some spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities read, “[Do something]. If [a player] [does, doesn’t, or can’t], [effect].” or “[A player] may [do something]. If [that player] [does, doesn’t, or can’t], [effect].” The action [do something] is a cost, paid when the spell or ability resolves. The “If [a player] [does, doesn’t, or can’t]” clause checks whether the player chose to pay an optional cost or started to pay a mandatory cost, regardless of what events actually occurred.
    Example: You control Standstill, an enchantment that says “When a player casts a spell, sacrifice Standstill. If you do, each of that player’s opponents draws three cards.” A spell is cast, causing Standstill’s ability to trigger. Then an ability is activated that exiles Standstill. When Standstill’s ability resolves, you’re unable to pay the “sacrifice Standstill” cost. No player will draw cards.
    Example: Your opponent has cast Gather Specimens, a spell that says “If a creature would enter the battlefield under an opponent’s control this turn, it enters the battlefield under your control instead.” You control a face-down Dermoplasm, a creature with morph that says “When Dermoplasm is turned face up, you may put a creature card with morph from your hand onto the battlefield face up. If you do, return Dermoplasm to its owner’s hand.” You turn Dermoplasm face up, and you choose to put a creature card with morph from your hand onto the battlefield. Due to Gather Specimens, it enters the battlefield under your opponent’s control instead of yours. However, since you chose to pay the cost, Dermoplasm is still returned to its owner’s hand.
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