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Thread: AskNought

  1. #1

    AskNought

    So I have been playing this deck for a while and I am trying to get feedback. It's a lot of fun tho play, but is weak to decks that offer a lot of removal. The general idea is to cheat out a Phyrexian Dreadnought, Eater of Days, Wurmcoil Engine using torpor orb, illusionary mask, stifle and then put your opponent in a must-answer situation. It's fundamentally a combo deck that doesn't instantly lose to most of the common anti-combo deck plans (taking away Dredge's graveyard, countering an infernal tutor, ect) and has a surprising amount of tools and resiliency for a deck that is basically a one-trick-pony.

    Anyways, I present you my most recent build of AskNought, a Stilfenought deck with elements of Mud Stompy:

    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Eater of Days
    2 Wurmcoil Engine

    4 Torpor Orb
    3 Illusionary Mask
    4 Grim Monolith

    4 Force of Will
    3 Stifle
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Phyrexian Metamorph
    1 Phantasmal Image
    2 Misdirection
    2 Daze
    2 Not of This World

    5 Island
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 Wasteland

    //Sideboard
    4 Leyline of the Void
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    2 Vision Charm
    2 Chalice of the Void
    1 Pithing Needle
    2 Ratchet Bomb

    The sideboard is a bit of a mess right now (except the leylines. I know, I know, people don't like them but I'm completely sold on their value) but I am looking for any and all feedback.
    I am considering many gimicks, like taking out all the blue for colorless and using things like Reality Smasher and upping my Wurmcoils and leaning more on the MUD aspect of this deck.
    There is also a potential black build with Hunted Horror and hand-disruption, which Is nice but doesn't include Force as the ultimate get-out-of-jail-free card.

    Mentioned cards:
    Hunted Horror
    Reality Smasher
    Last edited by Dice_Box; 06-15-2017 at 10:27 AM. Reason: Fixed formating.

  2. #2

    Re: AskNought

    So how does Illusionary Mask work? You pay the colored mana cost (or more) of a creature, cast it as a morph, and then if it would be damaged, deal damage, or become tapped, instead you flip it and it continues to exist face up?
    Quote Originally Posted by Acclimation View Post
    I about died from laughter when I was watching my feature match and the commentators called Tinfins a difficult and challenging deck.

    I'm not saying it's the easiest deck to play, but the plan is so linear that I could probably get white girl wasted and still beat people with the deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    Imagine the trauma of a man who has seen Mom into Crusader enough to mainboard three Cabal Pits.

  3. #3
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    Re: AskNought


  4. #4

    Re: AskNought

    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    So how does Illusionary Mask work? You pay the colored mana cost (or more) of a creature, cast it as a morph, and then if it would be damaged, deal damage, or become tapped, instead you flip it and it continues to exist face up?
    Exactly. This makes it function as a torpor orb numbers 5-7 since the creature already entered the battlefield. It also means that they can go under Ensnaring bridges as 2/2's and deal damage with their full power. It also can get around special casting requirements like Illusionary Angel, Myr Superion, and Skaab Ruinator. Unfortunately, none of those cards work with Torpor orb or stifle, and thus are not playable in this deck unless you paired it with some Manifest plan such as Write into Being and Mastery of the Unseen.
    Mentioned cards:
    Illusory Angel
    Myr Superion
    Skaab Ruinator
    Write into Being
    Mastery of the Unseen

  5. #5

    Re: AskNought

    Now I haven't played the deck. But it feels like you want to have either maindeck Chalice of the Void. Or fewer sol lands. 8 are very many and they don't come for free when you have a hand full of brainstorms and stifles. I get that you need two sol lands to play orb/mask on turn one followed by eater of days on turn two, but I would want more payoff. Unfurtunately stifle would most likely have to get replaced by something much worse like Trickbind so I can see maindeck Chalice being bad as well. 4 fetches are also on the low side for brainstorm, especially since you need to get a blue mana before you can cast brainstorm (and then fetch), and a single fetch might often be your only blue source (only 5 non fetch blue sources). 9 blue sources are in generally very few as well, I would probably want something like 12 or more considering the number of blue spells. The protection suite of 2 misdirection 2 daze 2 not of this world feel weird, is it just that you haven't tested enough to know which is better yet?

  6. #6

    Re: AskNought

    Quote Originally Posted by It Is Unfair View Post
    Now I haven't played the deck. But it feels like you want to have either maindeck Chalice of the Void. Or fewer sol lands. 8 are very many and they don't come for free when you have a hand full of brainstorms and stifles. I get that you need two sol lands to play orb/mask on turn one followed by eater of days on turn two, but I would want more payoff. Unfurtunately stifle would most likely have to get replaced by something much worse like Trickbind so I can see maindeck Chalice being bad as well. 4 fetches are also on the low side for brainstorm, especially since you need to get a blue mana before you can cast brainstorm (and then fetch), and a single fetch might often be your only blue source (only 5 non fetch blue sources). 9 blue sources are in generally very few as well, I would probably want something like 12 or more considering the number of blue spells. The protection suite of 2 misdirection 2 daze 2 not of this world feel weird, is it just that you haven't tested enough to know which is better yet?
    So the sol lands are great and at such high quantities because playing them into a turn one Orb/Mask/Grim Monolith sets you up to cast anything next turn. (Also, Grim Monolith is your only play for a turn 1 Dreadnought) Also, playing them turn 2 gives you three mana, allowing for (assuming you played an island last turn, and not one of the above) A dreadnought via Orb or Mask or Stifle, where as without the Sol land you would be forced to use stifle. Also it means you can metamorph something and play a monolith and be set to Wurmcoin next turn, or Eater of Days next turn if you have an orb/mask while leaving a blue up to threaten a stifle or brainstorm.
    And you're right about maindeck chalice: Putting it at one makes stifiling impossible, and it makes Dreadnoughts only available through Illusionary Mask, taking out the best creature from contention.
    The manabase though has tripped me up in the past, as you are right: It's greedy and inconsistent. Some times it's fantastic, letting you do truly unfair things to unsuspecting decks, occasionally it does just say I don't get to play either. The thing about blue sources is that you never need more than one, and often you don't need any.
    If the 2/2/2 split feels weird agree, but I'm waiting for the meta to shake out before I commit to one. I've tested thoroughly (been playing this deck for many years now, it's performance ranges from 0-3 in the local tournament to losing its win-and-in at an SCG open) and I know when I prefer which ones. Misdirection works against combo decks. Daze against Aggro decks, both against a control so they play around both, Not of This World against anything not using Goyf (That's a joke, they can have their extra point from the tribal typing). Luckily 4 Force of Will feels less weird and that's there too.

  7. #7

    Re: AskNought

    So I went out and played last night, going 2-1, and 2-2 in four side games.
    The list isn't too much different, but I tried some new stuff out tonight:

    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Eater of Days
    2 Wurmcoil Engine

    4 Torpor Orb
    3 Illusionary Mask
    4 Grim Monolith

    4 Force of Will
    3 Stifle
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Phyrexian Metamorph
    1 Opt
    2 Misdirection
    2 Write into Being
    1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
    1 Not of This World

    5 Island
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 Wasteland

    //Sideboard
    4 Leyline of the Void
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    2 Vision Charm
    2 Chalice of the Void(?)
    1 Pithing Needle
    2 Lodestone Golem

    The highlights are the Write into Being, which lets you look at the top 2 cards of your deck, manifest one and scry the other. It's fun, but even for this deck way too unreliable and expensive. One dollar not well spent. (even if it did win a game)
    Match 1, Vs A deck with Green Sun's Zenith:
    I should probably be able to tell you more, but we had two very quick games where he Green Sun'd for 0 to get a Dryad Arbor and Scooped to a Dreadnought, and a second game where he green sun'd for 2 to get a pride mage and scooped to Not of This World. I think we maybe played like 5 turns total. Oh well. Off to a good start.

    Match 2, Vs Leovald Sultai
    Game one goes well for me, I have a misdirection for his Abrupt Decay and I don't have to show anything else as Dreadnought ends the game as Dreadnoughts tend to do.
    Game two, however he brings in more of his removal and we each end up with a hand without a lot of business (3 eater of days! What could go wrong?) He does, however pithing needle my Illusionary Mask, and as the turns begin to pile up without either of us doing anything I try and force an Eater of Days (waiting for him to use all his fetch lands so he can't push) but I foolishly didn't wait for one more land so I could hard cast a Misdirection I was holding onto (thinking I have 3 eaters, I can afford to lose one, then two) and after spotting him 4 turns he eventually Jace locks me.
    Game 3 we each mulligan to 5, but he's got the answer to everything and I'm now 1-1.

    Match 3, Vs Reanimator
    When I say this is a good match-up for me, it's because of matches that go like this one did. Game one on the play I plop down a turn 2 Wurmcoil Engine, and just attack willy-nilly. Game 2 is a little slower and I cast Write Into Being, Manifesting a Dreadnought. Last game he didn't see any such things so he Grissleband's himself to 12 (Whiff. Phew.) and doesn't block when my Morph attacks. Turn it up, it's a dreadnought and he's signing the result slip.

    BONUS ROUNDS 2 V Delver
    UR Delver can't do much against a 12 12. Did you know?
    I take it back, they can counter it. 1-1.

    BONUS ROUNDS 2 More V Reanimatior
    First game he Puts me behind a Chancellor of the Annex, so I can't get the turn 2 Eater of Days I wanted, Worse he reanimates that Chancellor and now I can't cast ANYTHI...oh now there's a second one and I haven't even cast my first spell.
    Second game became super awkward when he reanimates an Iona, and I have to hide behind an Eater (while at 3 life) This stalemate lasts one turn when he reanimates a Sire of Insanity. Bye bye hand. We hardly knew ye. I topdeck like a pro and continue the stalemate with another Eater. Then we waste like 5 turns each waiting to top-deck a way out. I get a Dreadnought and then he gets a Grisslebrand but it's too late. 1-1.

    So: Deck still weak to a lot of common removal prevailent in the format. Kira is good and I should play more. Write is cringey and I should play fewer.

  8. #8
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    Re: AskNought

    Dreadnought is low to the ground, while Tombs/City (+/- Mimic) are decidedly not. Aside from a pretty perfect start, it doesn't seem like Monolith is doing you any favors - it just kinda joins the crew of 11x 2-drop artifacts that don't really do anything by themselves nor in duplicate. (again I'm discounting the chance to have a hand of Sol Land -> Monolith -> Torpor/Mask + Dreadnought).

    If you want to stay on the big mana [i.e. Monolith-inconsistency] plan I'd suggest dropping Dreadnoughts (and Mask, despite the cmc diversification) and going for x=1 Chalice free wins combined with Transmute Artifact. Definitely stop running Brainstorm over Ponder with only 4 shuffle effects. If you move on to a Chalice plan, Stifles go to Trickbind and there would be plenty of 2 mana cantrips that can see 5-deep and set up manifests...even Ancestral Visions sneaks through Chalice. @ItIsUnfair has made plenty of spot on observations on this topic.

    You're running 4x FoW and 2x Misdirection with 18 total blue cards which is somewhat concerning. Dreadnought decks (or Eater of Days decks) should not have much of anything to fear from yard-based combo, cut the 4x Leyline of the Void; the immediate quick-fix would be 2x Surgical, 2x Noxious Revival. You're in this very sub-optimal place where you're neither a Dreadnought nor Tezzerator deck; moving forward win %age will increase as specialization moves towards one of those archetypes.

    I will say this though, few people instinctively get that MUD/Tezz/Dreadnought are all in the same wheelhouse and I applaud the attempt to unite the clans.

  9. #9

    Re: AskNought

    Have you tried Eldrazi Mimic? Is it too cute?

    Mimic in play -> cast Dreadnought -> Mimic becomes big -> sac Mimic to Dreadnought trigger -> keep Dreadnought in play.

    Nonbo with Torpor Orb, though, and does open you up to 1:2 creature removal because Torpor Orb sticks after playing 1 Dreadnought but Mimic doesn't. But it's an additional enabler option as a 1-2 of (instead of Write into Being)?

  10. #10

    Re: AskNought

    Quote Originally Posted by Karhumies View Post
    Have you tried Eldrazi Mimic? Is it too cute?

    Mimic in play -> cast Dreadnought -> Mimic becomes big -> sac Mimic to Dreadnought trigger -> keep Dreadnought in play.

    Nonbo with Torpor Orb, though, and does open you up to 1:2 creature removal because Torpor Orb sticks after playing 1 Dreadnought but Mimic doesn't. But it's an additional enabler option as a 1-2 of (instead of Write into Being)?
    I did consider this, but in a deck like this I'm not sure I can afford cards that don't interact favorably with everything else. Legacy requires everything to work with as little variance as possible, and a 2/1 that is turned off by your combo enabler is bad Juju.

  11. #11

    Re: AskNought

    I had been taking some time off from Legacy because there is a large Modern event approaching and I had been gearing up for that. Also I only had two chalice of the void so I was saving up to finish my playset. Which brings us to this incarnation:

    Ask Nought, Denial Mode

    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Torpor Orb
    3 Illusionary Mask
    3 Lotus Petal

    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Eater of Days
    2 Kira, Great Glass Spinner

    4 Impulse
    4 Trickbind
    4 Force of Will
    3 Misdirection
    3 Transmute artifact

    3 City of Traitors
    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 Wasteland
    2 Academy ruins
    2 Seat of the Synod
    7 Island

    Added Chalice on 1 to the list of "Good opening plays" and eschewed grim monolith in favor of lotus petal. The idea being that trading the mana-intensive Wurmcoil Engine in for the more defensive Kira requires a more reliable access to blue mana. (Although, 11 Blue sources is still greedy)
    Transmute artifact was added, along with a pair of Seat of the Synods to help pay for it and to feed it. I haven't had time to shuffle it up yet but just gauging everyone's reactions first

  12. #12

    Re: AskNought

    Any thoughts on the new 3/1 flyer with flash, cycling and Stifle attached to it. It can even serve the aggro role if you don't need to combo with it.

    Eldrazi Mimic doesn't even need to be sacced to Dreadnoght in order to be good. If your opponent has no blockers, it basically gives all your creatures haste and lets you swing in for 12. Probably not worth playing it instead of Torpor Orb but it's an option.

  13. #13

    Re: AskNought

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    Any thoughts on the new 3/1 flyer with flash, cycling and Stifle attached to it. It can even serve the aggro role if you don't need to combo with it.
    Which creature is this?
    Eldrazi Mimic doesn't even need to be sacced to Dreadnoght in order to be good. If your opponent has no blockers, it basically gives all your creatures haste and lets you swing in for 12. Probably not worth playing it instead of Torpor Orb but it's an option.
    Right, it nonbos with Torpor Orb, and unlike Chalice, I can't Trickbind to get around.

  14. #14

    Re: AskNought

    Nimble Obstructionist wouldn't work here, since it can't Stifle triggers that you control.
    Quote Originally Posted by Acclimation View Post
    I about died from laughter when I was watching my feature match and the commentators called Tinfins a difficult and challenging deck.

    I'm not saying it's the easiest deck to play, but the plan is so linear that I could probably get white girl wasted and still beat people with the deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    Imagine the trauma of a man who has seen Mom into Crusader enough to mainboard three Cabal Pits.

  15. #15

    Re: AskNought

    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    Nimble Obstructionist wouldn't work here, since it can't Stifle triggers that you control.
    I thought that's what he was talking about but I was giving him a chance to confirm.
    You're absolutely right though, it's a bad card in a deck that wants to cast stifle on itself.

  16. #16
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    Re: AskNought

    Gonna ask a question that I'm sure has been asked/answered a million times (I know I've asked it before myself, but I can never remember the answer). How does Illusionary Mask work with Dreadnought/other creatures? Can you basically play it face down for 0 and turn it face up for 0, or does it have to be 1 (it's mana cost)?

  17. #17
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    Re: AskNought

    Quote Originally Posted by TLK View Post
    Gonna ask a question that I'm sure has been asked/answered a million times (I know I've asked it before myself, but I can never remember the answer). How does Illusionary Mask work with Dreadnought/other creatures? Can you basically play it face down for 0 and turn it face up for 0, or does it have to be 1 (it's mana cost)?
    Pay X, note the colors and types of mana. You may cast a creature face down. When it turns face up the mana paid has to cover the cost in the upper right of that card - otherwise you cheated and lost the game. At the end of a game all face-down cards have to be turned face-up. Conditions for face-up replacement effect are becomes tapped, would assign or deal dmg, or be dealt damage. Everything the Mask does plays nicely with morph and manifest. Mask also lets Thing in the Ice get into the red zone as a 0/4 defender with 0 ice counters (fire an instant in declare attackers to bounce all blockers and deal 7).

    Mask enables faster than split second interaction (when built for it), running into speed of mana ceiling (i.e. the colon between "tap land" and "add mana to pool" due to replacement effect) - don't worry about this unless you're a Dreadnought specialist, it won't make much sense.

    edit: unfortunately Mask has not been re-errata'd back to original design which simply puts creatures into play rather than casting; Aether Vial would be banned already were it not safe to have Mask function as intended.

  18. #18

    Re: AskNought

    Quote Originally Posted by TLK View Post
    Gonna ask a question that I'm sure has been asked/answered a million times (I know I've asked it before myself, but I can never remember the answer). How does Illusionary Mask work with Dreadnought/other creatures? Can you basically play it face down for 0 and turn it face up for 0, or does it have to be 1 (it's mana cost)?
    So you pay X to activate the mask's ability. This ability then lets you cast any creature spell that costs X or less. So you pay one blue mana, and this lets you cast anything from an Ornithopter to a Delver of Secrets. But not a Grizzly Bears. This spell is cast facedown, and no one but you knows what it is. Then it's like a normal morph with one big exception: There is a replacement effect that will turn the creature face up if it attacks, deals, or receives damage.
    SO: You pay 1 and activate mask. Mask casts a dreadnought face down. Next turn your face-down 2/2 attacks, and when it does so it turns face-up and actually attacks as a 12/12 trample. It came into play last turn, so we skip the ETB trigger.

  19. #19
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    Re: AskNought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    So you pay X to activate the mask's ability. This ability then lets you cast any creature spell that costs X or less. So you pay one blue mana, and this lets you cast anything from an Ornithopter to a Delver of Secrets. But not a Grizzly Bears. This spell is cast facedown, and no one but you knows what it is. Then it's like a normal morph with one big exception: There is a replacement effect that will turn the creature face up if it attacks, deals, or receives damage.
    SO: You pay 1 and activate mask. Mask casts a dreadnought face down. Next turn your face-down 2/2 attacks, and when it does so it turns face-up and actually attacks as a 12/12 trample. It came into play last turn, so we skip the ETB trigger.
    Ah, that make sense. Pretty cool interaction with Thing in the Ice, too. Just need to cast 1 spell to flip it.

  20. #20

    Re: AskNought

    Quote Originally Posted by TLK View Post
    Ah, that make sense. Pretty cool interaction with Thing in the Ice, too. Just need to cast 1 spell to flip it.
    Correct. You still need to turn it face up before you cast that blue spell thought.
    I actually have a few Thing In Ice when I was trying to play this as Dreadstill (Turns out it's too reactive and BOR~ING)

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