Balance has to be set up to be broken/ significantly more powerful than wrath, which this deck can only do on absurd nutdraws that are extremely all-in and vulnerable to counterspells (like Tomb Mox+Imprint Foretold Balance turn 1). It's better in vintage because you can play actual mox instead of chrome mox and the modern deck with Restore Balance is built entirely around the card, with Borderposts to develop your mana while reducing your landcount, and playing Greater Gargadon to sacrifice any lands that are leftover while also being a huge threat post-balance. Just throwing it into a control deck isn't going to produce anything significantly more powerful than the guaranteed 'kill all creatures' mode and it can even backfire (e.g. in one of the matches where it made the OP discard 2 planeswalkers).
The second statement is just totally false, URw has a fewer number of lockpieces (No Magus, no Trinisphere) and fewer threats (because As Foretold by itself is a blank and you have a higher land count) than mono-R.
I think maindeck ensnaring bridge in DS is good, as in the list I posted. The matches showed that bridge is good, I'm not saying you should cut that card.
DS also has Fiery Confluence to wipe creatures and while this obviously isn't as good as balance vs TNN / Eldrazi Ass / Mother of Runes, needing your board wipe to be paired with your Show and Tell in your deck with 0 Ponder/Brainstorm is sketchy as fuck and the Hand/Land disruption aspect isn't reliable and can backfire.
Edit: Sorry for doublepost
You don't need to nut draw people with Balance, it's still capable of really broken things late game too. And it's technically better with Chrome Mox than the P9 Moxen since it empties your hand more.
I'm making a difference between threats and must answer threats, this deck has more must answer threats (PWs mostly). If you want to talk about blanks as you say AF is, then DS has so much redundancy in lock pieces they have plenty of blanks after the first too. I'm not just making these things up, I've played the deck, it can play an attrition game much better than you think. Clearly you're not convinced though, so you're welcome to carry on playing DS. Maybe it is better, but it doesn't appeal to all players.
A late game balance in this deck is where you have a few lands in play and not that many cards in your hand and the opponent is in roughly the same spot. If your opponents hand is full of cards then its a bunch of uncastable stuff they can't get through moon/chalice and they won't care about discarding. It's a slightly more spicy version of Wrath that admittedly does have some applications against combo, but what version of combo are you worried about in your 4x Bridge 4x Moon 4x Chalice deck. (That you cut Trinisphere from in order to fit this in).
The difference between AF and 4 more moons or 3 Trinispheres is that yes while the 2nd and 3rd copies of all of these don't help much, the first copy of Magus and 3Ball actually does something on its own whereas AF doesn't.
Please explain the difference between a thread and a 'must answer' threat. When your opponent is under a Chalice/Bridge/Moon nearly any threat is a 'must answer' threat, you have already 'won' the game by resolving your lockpiece and stopping them from playing magic, now you just need some reasonably efficient way to take them down to 0 life. If your opponent is playing Grixis Delver and all their lands are mountains then it doesn't matter whether you have Koth or Chandra or Sin Prodder or Curse of the Pierced Heart, all of them are 'must answer' because your opponent will die regardless if they can't get rid of Moon. If it's not actually a hard lock though and your opponent can draw out of it, then you want cards that can quickly come down and kill your opponent, not wait around in your hand for the other half of the 2-card combo or be stuck uncastable because of your bad mana.
I don't have any experience playing either deck, I only watched the video and am theorycrafting based on the rest of my experience with legacy / deckbuilding. All of these drawbacks I am mentioning were apparent multiple times and the 'combo payoff' (AF into Ancestral) happened only once in 18 games.
Obviously the whole point of the discussion is to determine which deck is better, if you want to play this deck just because you think it's more fun then go ahead.
Legacy is much too diverse to make up a scenario like that. You're also the one playing with Balance, you can sandbag lands, empty your hand quickly...there's plenty of ways to maximise the effect of the card. It's not just a wrath of god.
I mean...sure, AF does nothing on it's own. That's why we're playing cards that make it powerful. Neither Magus or 3Ball are these bombs in plenty of matchups too.
Being under a Chalice/Bridge/Moon is far from GG vs loads of the format, only Moon is an auto win against some of the bug decks, bridge and Chalice can be beaten by most of the format. You're backing these up with the rest of the deck. If you're playing against Grixis Delver and all their lands are mountains, then they can still cast Young Pyromancer, Lightning Bolt and Force of Will. It absolutely matters if your threats can be attacked with these cards.
Basing everything off one set of games isn't really very helpful.
No, it's not. The deck has been made this week, it's far from being tested and played enough to know what it is and isn't capable of.
And to the second point, that's a totally valid reason to play a deck. I have no interest in playing something like the mono red builds, it's much more all in and isn't anywhere near as flexible as this. Maybe that's technically 'better', but not something I find interesting at all.
A few more differences between the decks:
Monored stompy: Creature beatdown plan + MD Ensnaring Bridge can end up being a nonbo. This can be worked around, though: Quicksmith Rebel and Hazoret the Fervent are example creatures which still function somehow under a Bridge.
As foretold stompy: There are no creatures (other than SSG) you would draw into after landing a Bridge.
Monored stompy: Creatures can attack and block.
As foretold stompy: You are a goldfish in terms of creatures. But at the same time, you are blanking opponent's creature removal.
Monored stompy: There is no card filtering. Only extra "draws" (Sin Prodder, Chandra). Drawing into multiple Moons, Bridges, etc. can be redundant. Drawing multiple redundant lockpieces can even be harmful under a Bridge, because if you can't cast/get rid of all of them, the opponent is allowed to attack due to cards in hand. Exception case: the list is running Avaricious Dragon and/or Hazoret.
As foretold stompy: Jace TMS provides Brainstorm filtering, and the deck plays fetchlands to shuffle.
Featured in the link below; Redundant copy of As Foretold.
https://twitter.com/Truckis123/statu...69141018349568
:-D
have you tried running any copies of wheel of fate
-rob
How do you all feel about a green splash?
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 JTMS
4 Kiora, the Crashing Wave (I'll explain)
4 As Foretold
4 Restore Balance
4 Ancestral Visions
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Force of Will
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
8 Island
I feel like Kiora is a cool find for this deck. It works well with Bridge as it can snipe down things that could get through it, and the emblem is a good way to close out the game quickly once we land it.
Glad to see this pile getting so much attention. It's a blast to play and I'm glad more people have experienced it!
@Redkid43
Kiora is a good card. I don't think it's close between her and Chandra though. There are certainly other good green cards (and black/White) so feel free to try it.
I'm currently looking for weak matchups/cards and there certainly are some (especially the deck itself ;-P) but I haven't found a good reason to play another color yet.
@mistercakes
I have not tested Wheel of fate. But I don't Think it's a good idea in legacy because of the number of free spells (mainly fow) that your opponent can draw off of it. A full hand from nowhere is super scary, too.
@everyone
I'm still not saying this deck is the best thing ever. And I agree with a lot of the naysayers that it's inconsistent. I think however that the powerlevel is absurd enough to make up for some of it. Our opponent has to spend every resource available during the early turns (play suboptimal cantrips, force of will anything, discard rather than play a delver etcetc) and for that reason the game often goes on for many turns (unless we sledgehammer them early). In a top-deck mode I think on average this deck will get more out of 2 blanks and 1 spell than a typical draw from our opponent. So drawing these blanks is "fine". If we do find gas it quickly spirals not only into us getting value from jace, balance, ancestral but also value from them not casting spells when we draw blood moon or chalice of the void. Our bombs has to be answered and are tough to answer outside disenchant/abrupt decay/kolaghen's command or some kind of counterspell. Blanking creature removal is a huge here. So while the deck is inconsistent it's not as inconsistent as you'd Think, if that makes any sense.
Yesterday I visited a friend and we streamed a League playing the deck. We mulliganed a lot and on top of that we played very, very poorly from time to time. We had a blast and somehow we still managed to 5-0 the League (!). I think that speaks for the powerlevel of the deck. You can find the video at his channel www.twitch.tv/yehspuhr
I'm looking to play either this or miracles at the end of the month at MKM Prague. If you are testing the deck please share your results :-)
Sorry about that. In hindsight my comment was a bit too snappy, not my intention! Always good to get new ideas out there.
The main downside of losing red is Blood Moon I think, maybe green gives us a similar option? Choke... Chandra is really amazing in this deck too though so I think red is the best supplement colour. Maybe we could play white if there's some PWers that win through a bridge, and Armageddon!
Agree with mackan about the deck, and that league is absolutely hilarious. I won't spoil anything, but highly recommended viewing! There's a good chance I'll be joining him on the deck in Prague too. Feels like the perfect brew after a night out on the town to nurse a hangover.
I think our maindeck is very solid now, with a couple of slots up for debate. I like Dack Faydens in the main quite a lot, but it still needs to be tested more, it may not be high enough impact so doesn't fit out 'keep slamming must answers' plan. But the one mana cost lower, as well as filtering/discarding extra lands/uncastables for Bridge are big pros for him.
The sb is a bit harder. I think Force of Wills and Leyline of the Voids are slam dunks, and some sweepers like Pyroclasm or Kozileks Return. We're going to try Fiery Confluence next, and Abrade looks good when it comes out. The blue count for FoW vs combo is quite low though, considering trying a couple of Cliques, but maybe someone has a better idea for a blue anti combo card in a tappout shell?
Truckis did you 5-0 again? Saw your name today. I tested a few games with this list and I never seemed to want to cast Balance because it would blow up all my artifacts. :/ Most of the time it just rotted in my hand.
I watched the league that you 5-0d and recorded at your friend's house and it was definitely a wild ride
M1 Delver
G1 Mull to 4
G2 Opponent forces AF, Moon resolves and your opponent concedes
G3 Turn 1 Chalice for 1, Turn 2 Chalice for 2, then Jace
M2 Elves
G1 Turn 2 Foretold + Ancestral, Then next turn another Ancestral, But opponent kills your PW with attackers and then kills all your permanents with Symbiote + RecSage
G2 Turn 3 As Foretold, turn 4 Jace + Balance, Somehow you play multiple Ancestral and multiple PW this game but all the PW die to attacks, eventually you find Bridge
G3 You topdeck Balance when you're dead on board and 2 turns later draw Chandra, then Ancestral
M3 Death and Taxes
G1 Turn 1 Chalice, Turn 3 Jace on empty board, turn 4 As Foretold, imprint/cast your whole hand, balance
G2 Turn 1 suspend gets blocked by Spirit of the Labyrinth and you don't do anything
G3 Turn 2 Chandra Turn 3 Jace, Jace gets Council's Judgmented but you have another one (this game goes super long (and is hilarious) and there are a couple of turns where your opponent has Flickerwisp on bridge as an out but it's pretty hard for White Weenie deck to beat double pw on turn 4
M4 Delver
G1 Turn 1 suspend, turn 3 double imprint cast your last card (Jace), gets Forced, there is an argument that with Delver and DRS in play your opponent should have let the Jace resolve and saved Force for the Ancestral, but Ancestral Resolves and draws the perfect 3 cards (Balance, Foretold, Bloodmoon). In response to Balance you get Bolted down to 1 but you have moon in play against your opponent's all-nonbasic manabase and in the 2 following turns you draw Chandra then Jace
G2 Opponent plays turn 1 waste on the play (no mulligan), you resolve turn 1 Chalice for 1, turn 2 Foretold Ancestral, opponent gets to 4 mana without playing a spell and you have another Ancestral and Jace in the meantime
M5 Delver
G1 Turn 1 Moon, turn 2 Chalice for 1, you almost still die to YP and Elementals because you can't get the Balance out of your hand for Ensnaring Bridge but on the critical turn you reveal As Foretold with the Chandra plus
G2 You play Defense Grid and Moon but with DRS your opponent has enough mana to Force the follow-up Chalice and then you brick and die to YP + Elementals
"Ok I'm shaving a Chandra, it's a Brazilian wax right out of the maindeck"
G3 Keep Volc EE Mox Jace Moon Balance Vision
Suspend turn 1
Opponent turn 1 volc, ponder
Draw chandra, pass
Opponent wasteland, Delver
Draw jace, Imprint jace, EE for 1
Opponent plays wasteland, Ancient grudges your Mox
Draw island, play it, pass
Opponent Usea, attack with 1/1
Visions comes off suspend and gets pyroblasted
Draw SSG
Opp EOT brainstorm
Delver flip reveal bolt
Opp fetches volc, attack (15)
Draw island, pass
Opp mainphase brainstorm, attack (12)
Main 2, Ponder
Eot you try to pop EE, gets stifled
Draw fetch, fetch mountain, play moon
Get attacked (8)
Draw Bridge, Exile SSG, Chandra, gets forced
Get attacked (5)
Draw As Foretold, play it, play balance
Draw land, play Jace
Opponent has 1 bolt in hand and puts you to 2 but you fateseal him out
I think in this league you might have cast 1 non-suspend card with As Foretold, I can sort of see the value of suspending ancestral e.g. in round 4 g1, but if it was just SNT+Emrakul it would have won you game 1 against Elves.
Everybody keeps saying that Balance is this crazy wipe but the only time it ever did anything more than a wrath was the game 1 where you annihilated death and taxes with it. (Although as a Wrath it was certainly very important in other games).
I don't think SNT + Grisel + Em is what you actually want, because of the Ensnaring Bridge wombo, and because there are situations where you're facing down 2+ creatures and Emrakul will not save you, and because it opens you up to being ruined by Karakas. Perhaps there is an alternative fatty/permanent that solves these problems (like Magmatic Force or something really off-the-wall).
I think the deck is decent and I wouldn't confidently say DS is better anymore but I still think that:
- You are only using As Foretold as Show and Tell for Wrath and Ancestral, why not use actual Show and Tell for something super powerful
- 'But I can suspend Ancestral, unlike a 10 mana card' isn't a great argument when you have no discard or counterspells to protect it and it resolves less than half the time when you try it
If you want to keep the suspend plan then maybe you want to play 1-2 copies of Tolaria West, which finds both suspend cards and Chalice. I think a change of -1 Balance +1 Tolaria could be a good start:
- Generally you don't need multiple balances per game, chaining them one-into-the-other doesn't make sense like it does with visions
- Generally it's fine to not balance on turn 1 or turn 2 and you take some time to set it up
- Having extra mana sources instead of balance would have been good a couple of times
(The fact that it's not good if you reveal it on a Chandra plus and you can't imprint it on Chrome Mox are the main downsides I think)
Overall the video was super entertaining and if you record any more videos in a pair like this I would definitely watch.
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