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Thread: [Deck] Two Green

  1. #21
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    Re: [Deck] Two Green

    I like idea of the deck but to be something better then tier 3 pet deck it needs:

    1. Fix combo MU: ANT, and Sneak/Omni, Reanimator

    Some solutions: list with Shaman, Gaddock (white splash is probably must have), sb Ooze problem is with sneak/Omni. Green doesn't provide proper answer to fast S&T to Emmy, Revoker would help vs Sneak. Probably Karakas is must have under Living Wish, Krosan Grips and Sage would help against Omni. We can also goes to Stax route with Thorn of Amethyst but it also slow down GSZ and Wishes.

    2. Fix Delver MU: playing against on draw we need cheap effective removal, 1cmc no-bo with Chalice, so we need 2 mana removal.

    Ideas: Punishing Fire looks ok, but it's based on gy - I don't like all strategies based on single point since it's easy to disrupt, Other options are Blessed Alliance (not a best, fragile, can't deal with DRS) - I like here spartial, but It doesn't kill fatties like Angler which will resolve for sure.

    3. Walkers
    Since we Blow lands quite late (turn 2-3 not earlier), we must be prepared for resolved walkers:
    - Liliana of the Veil
    - Jace
    Punishing fire is good here

    4. Elves - this MU seems abyssal, Chalice & Trini is temporary solution until they smash them with repeatable Sage.

    5. TNN looks problematic
    Smokestack can be interesting here, can also work nice with vs walkers and has good synergy with deck should be included.

    6. After sideboard weak points:
    Since combo based on GY we can be sure that opponent put some hosers, since BR Reanimator is still around we can met fallowing cards:
    - Deathrite Shaman (also G1) - answer removal is must have, ground seal is useless since it doesn't protect against effects like leyline or rest in peace, don't forget that we have tiny SB thanks to wish targets.
    - Leyline of the Void - 2-3 mana artifact/enchantment removal, Sage under Wish for sure, but connecting with Omni MU I would put Krosan grips (2-3).
    - Fearie Macabre - Phyrexian Revoker can help here, but with additional sources to find an other lands.
    - Surgical Extraction - Chalice for 1 is good here, good play with Ooze/own DRS can work here.

    Summarize:
    It will hard to tune this deck to today meta, red and white splash looks optimal.

    Deck:

    // 61 Maindeck
    // 13 Artifact
    4 Chalice of the Void
    2 Trinisphere
    4 Mox Diamond
    3 Smokestack

    // 12 Creature
    1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
    1 Ranumap Excavator
    1 Deathrite Shaman
    1 Dryad Arbor
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    3 Tireless Tracker
    1 Reclamation Sage
    3 Knight of the Reliquary

    // 3 Instant
    3 Punishing Fire

    // 26 Land
    4 Wasteland
    1 Ghost Quarter
    1 Nomad Stadium
    1 Karakas
    4 Ancient Tomb
    2 City of Traitors
    2 Savannah
    1 Horizon Canopy
    1 Forest
    2 Taiga
    2 Grove of the Burnwillows
    4 Windswept Heath
    1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

    // 7 Sorcery
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    3 Living Wish


    // 15 Sideboard
    // 7 Creature
    1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
    1 Ranumap Excavator
    1 Reclamation Sage
    1 Tireless Tracker
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    1 Phyrexian Revoker
    1 Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers
    // 4 Instant
    3 Krosan Grip
    1 Blessed Alliance
    // 4 Land
    1 Karakas
    1 Glacial Chasm
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


    Problems encounter:
    1. Mana base - If we don't run 4x Waste + Sol lands we loss speed, either if we don't run 4 x waste we lose engine
    2. Lock // action balance like you see I cut engine to 1-of since even with 4 GSZ and 3 Wishes every time something was missing mostly, a wasteland or it was too late since opponent get advantage on battlefield enough to win, more over since we running not to much creatures they keep tier removal to combo.
    Chalice and Trini doesn't stop for long - 1-2 turns mostly since modern decks running decay's, Kolaghan's Command so living in magic Christmas land maybe it would work, overlay I don't think focusing on combo only which needs two creatures for 2G on battlefield which doesn't insta win is rather have place on kitchen tables.

    Lesson learned:
    Combo can have place as addition as 1-of target in good shell like Maverick or Aggro Loam.

  2. #22

    Re: [Deck] Two Green

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    I like the idea of Chasm, especially sitting behind it and building up a huge Ballista to snipe your opponent to death. But with we want to go with the recursive plan for it, dealing with GY hate is mandatory. And DRS' lifeloss can still get around this plan.

    Crystal Vein is worth testing.

    I'm not really sold on Nomad Stadium, at least in my variant of the deck, as it would have trouble to reach threshold by itself.
    If you're running Ballista - which is a very good option I think - have you thought about Inventors' Fair? It gains life (slowly) and recursively tutors for artifacts.

    @Dice_Box - Tabernacle is the solution to a flooded board. Mentor and Pyromancer are doing a great big pile of jack all vs. a Tabernacle on the table. Tab + any kind of mana denial just turns creature and tempo decks off.

  3. #23
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    Re: [Deck] Two Green

    Edit: I want to see test results of the deck first, but we might consider Beast Within as potential removal card. The CC of fits the deck perfectly. It really depends on how problematic the 3/3 is going to turn out, but being able to deal with any annoying permanent at instant speed sounds interesting. Bonus style points for blowing up a land when Tabernable is in play or creating a suprise blocker with one of your own permanents.

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    If you're running Ballista - which is a very good option I think - have you thought about Inventor's Fair? It gains life (slowly) and recursively tutors for artifacts.

    @Dice_Box - Tabernacle is the solution to a flooded board. Mentor and Pyromancer are doing a great big pile of jack all vs. a Tabernacle on the table. Tab + any kind of mana denial just turns creature and tempo decks off.
    I don't know if the deck has always enough artifacts in play to satisfy its metalcraft requirements. I'm sceptical.

    @Fatal: While I agree with the analysis of potential problems, I don't necessary agree with all conclusions:

    - Certain combo match-ups do require white. Whether or not playing Gaddock Teeg in the main or rather in the wishboard is debatable. Between Chalice & GSZ (and in your case Smokestack) there are plenty of cards I'd rather not want to see dead.

    - @Delver and Walkers: PF is probably the best possible solution, even if it's a nonbo with 3sphere. However, I'm more concerned about the additional strain it puts on the mana base. Ramping with fetchlands while the combo is out gets way weaker with less forests and fetches available.

    - @Elves: Again, PF would help here. Tabernacle is probably less stellar here due to LOL CRADLE.

    - TNN has a good chance to be problematic. But is Smokestack really going to help against it?

    - I'm not really a fan of cutting down the combo that much. It makes it even easier to cut down your recursion.
    Currently working on: Infinity Stompy

  4. #24

    Re: [Deck] Two Green

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Edit: I want to see test results of the deck first, but we might consider Beast Within as potential removal card. The CC of fits the deck perfectly. It really depends on how problematic the 3/3 is going to turn out, but being able to deal with any annoying permanent at instant speed sounds interesting. Bonus style points for blowing up a land when Tabernable is in play or creating a suprise blocker with one of your own permanents.


    I don't know if the deck has always enough artifacts in play to satisfy its metalcraft requirements. I'm sceptical.

    @Fatal: While I agree with the analysis of potential problems, I don't necessary agree with all conclusions:

    - Certain combo match-ups do require white. Whether or not playing Gaddock Teeg in the main or rather in the wishboard is debatable. Between Chalice & GSZ (and in your case Smokestack) there are plenty of cards I'd rather not want to see dead.

    - @Delver and Walkers: PF is probably the best possible solution, even if it's a nonbo with 3sphere. However, I'm more concerned about the additional strain it puts on the mana base. Ramping with fetchlands while the combo is out gets way weaker with less forests and fetches available.

    - @Elves: Again, PF would help here. Tabernacle is probably less stellar here due to LOL CRADLE.

    - TNN has a good chance to be problematic. But is Smokestack really going to help against it?

    - I'm not really a fan of cutting down the combo that much. It makes it even easier to cut down your recursion.
    You guys are missing some things. Like, the elf matchup? How do they get through Chasm? Answer, they don't. And yeah, cradle laughs at Tabernacle. Wasteland laughs at Cradle. Walkers? They're expensive. If they hit, there are options, our own creatures, Revoker, and if you're really worried about it, stuff like Beast Within is an easily sideboarded option. We went down the P.Fire type paths in the old EG threads. It doesn't work, ends up diluting your gameplan too much, and since you're already vulnerable to GY hate, that just increases it. P. Fire is a "solution" that accentuates your weaknesses and undermine's your strengths. It's a trap plan.

    With mainboard LD/Chalices/3spheres, there are already tons of ways to fight combo, Sphere/Thalia/Teeg effects are available if you want more, but they don't really need to be mainboarded with everything that's already there. Especially wiht Wish to grab one out of the board if needed.

    I mean, honestly, Moment's Peace is a better answer to Elves! than Punishing Fire.

  5. #25
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    Re: [Deck] Two Green

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    You guys are missing some things. Like, the elf matchup? How do they get through Chasm? Answer, they don't.
    Except when they go off with Glimpse and do repeated DRS activations after providing enough fodder for it. It isn't a 100% fool-proof plan. I've seen Julian pull it off often enough on his stream to know that.

    Does anyone know when Cockatrice normally gets updated with new sets? The wait is killing me and I'm not willing to drop 1k $ for MTGO on an untested deck that might turn out to be not even good enough.
    Currently working on: Infinity Stompy

  6. #26

    Re: [Deck] Two Green

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Except when they go off with Glimpse and do repeated DRS activations after providing enough fodder for it. It isn't a 100% fool-proof plan. I've seen Julian pull it off often enough on his stream to know that.

    Does anyone know when Cockatrice normally gets updated with new sets? The wait is killing me and I'm not willing to drop 1k $ for MTGO on an untested deck that might turn out to be not even good enough.
    Eh. I guess. where are they going to get all the sorceries and instants they need for that? Not like either deck is really big on those kind of spells. Also, again, they'd have to do that through Chalice and 3sphere. I know we can't test yet, but that's quite a lot of hate for Elves! to get through.

  7. #27
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    Re: [Deck] Two Green

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Except when they go off with Glimpse and do repeated DRS activations after providing enough fodder for it. It isn't a 100% fool-proof plan. I've seen Julian pull it off often enough on his stream to know that.

    Does anyone know when Cockatrice normally gets updated with new sets? The wait is killing me and I'm not willing to drop 1k $ for MTGO on an untested deck that might turn out to be not even good enough.
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  8. #28
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    Re: [Deck] Two Green

    About time. Wasn't up a few hours ago.

    First impression: Ballista is a very good Magic card. And it would be nice to once not run into a B/g deck with a metric shitton of basics.
    Currently working on: Infinity Stompy

  9. #29

    Re: [Deck] Two Green

    There's a very old 3color stax list called Sun Tower that played with a concept that included Sylvan Library and Words of Wilding, making a lot of bears quickly. You could look in that direction. Doesn't play well with Tabby, bit I'm pretty sure Chasm is better here anyway. It also goes well with the name, Two Green.

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  10. #30
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    Re: [Deck] Two Green

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    There's a very old 3color stax list called Sun Tower that played with a concept that included Sylvan Library and Words of Wilding, making a lot of bears quickly. You could look in that direction. Doesn't play well with Tabby, bit I'm pretty sure Chasm is better here anyway. It also goes well with the name, Two Green.
    You're the MVP of the day. Not because Words of Wilding is great, but because it made me remember another card of the cycle: Words of War


    It doesn't tax the deck as heavy as the PF/Grove combo, in fact, it only requires a single to be good to go, it's repeatable removal AND a wincon on its own. The fact that it makes multiple Sylvan Libraries insane instead of dead cards is just the icing on the cake. This card might be the perfect fit for the deck, since it draws a metric shitton between Tracker clues and Canopy recursion anyway. CC in the right range, mows down swarms and Planeswalker alike and it even functions behind a Glacial Chasm. Awesome.

    I would still run multiple Ballistas to complement it, preventing a lock-out with Revoker or Needle.

    I need to go back to the drawing board to figure out how to incorporate this card.
    Currently working on: Infinity Stompy

  11. #31

    Re: [Deck] Two Green

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    You're the MVP of the day. Not because Words of Wilding is great, but because it made me remember another card of the cycle: Words of War


    It doesn't tax the deck as heavy as the PF/Grove combo, in fact, it only requires a single to be good to go, it's repeatable removal AND a wincon on its own. The fact that it makes multiple Sylvan Libraries insane instead of dead cards is just the icing on the cake. This card might be the perfect fit for the deck, since it draws a metric shitton between Tracker clues and Canopy recursion anyway. CC in the right range, mows down swarms and Planeswalker alike and it even functions behind a Glacial Chasm. Awesome.

    I would still run multiple Ballistas to complement it, preventing a lock-out with Revoker or Needle.

    I need to go back to the drawing board to figure out how to incorporate this card.
    Thanks. Glad I could help, Angel Stax was the first legacy deck I built that wasn't ported from standard and went through many flavors after that, then played stompy varients before moving on (ported first one; was UG Madness), so anytime I see Stax varients, I inevitably look at my time with it.

    iirc, Emidln used to use it off and on in Sun Tower (pretty sure it was his baby before he switched to storm). I liked it less because it did nothing for the advancement of smokestack counters. If you get a library and a Words of Wilding out with a Trinisphere, they really never get to play magic again.

    The reason I prefer Wilding is because Stax obv plays to the board, and while damage can win a game, Wilding generates a body capable of being more impactful longer on the board.

    But hey, if you think splashing is better, go for it. I'm sure it'll be good, if just not my style. I'll probably get around to building stax again in the next year. In the meantime, get a good list so I don't have to work it out myself

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  12. #32
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    Re: [Deck] Two Green

    Got to play a few more games, even against some real decks like Maverick or D&T. The deck definitely needs some work, but it does have potential:

    - Tabernacle is THE SHIT against creature-heavy decks and wins games. FULL STOP. Although the full wipe out was rather rare. In most cases, it was a gradual decline.
    - Words of War can be a tad bit slow without accel, but so far, it did a pretty decent job at shotting down unbeloved creatures, even without the combo. Turning your natural draws into Shocks in the time of need is suprisingly effective. However, once it's combined with Library (currently running a 3/3 split), all hell breaks lose. Definitely a card worth further testing.
    - Trinisphere disappointed me so far. It was either win-more, did nothing or even hindered me instead of the opponent. It's gonna get moved to the SB for another Knight and a third MD Ballista.
    - Ballista is fantastic. Going with a 3 MD/1 SB split for now.
    - I still feel like the deck needs more removal, especially when it comes to artifacts and enchantments. Not sure how I'm going to solve that one yet.

    Current, updated list for reference:

    // 61 Maindeck
    // 8 Artifact
    4 Mox Diamond
    4 Chalice of the Void

    // 15 Creature
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
    2 Tireless Tracker
    1 Dryad Arbor
    2 Knight of the Reliquary
    1 Courser of Kruphix
    3 Walking Ballista
    1 Qasali Pridemage
    3 Ramunap Excavator

    // 6 Enchantment
    3 Sylvan Library
    3 Words of War

    // 25 Land
    3 City of Traitors
    3 Wasteland
    4 Ancient Tomb
    1 Ghost Quarter
    1 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Forest
    1 Karakas
    2 Savannah
    1 Horizon Canopy
    1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    4 Misty Rainforest
    2 Taiga

    // 7 Sorcery
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    3 Living Wish


    // 15 Sideboard
    // 3 Artifact
    3 Trinisphere

    // 8 Creature
    1 Faerie Macabre
    1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
    1 Tireless Tracker
    1 Walking Ballista
    1 Thragtusk
    1 Reclamation Sage
    1 Ramunap Excavator
    1 Phyrexian Revoker

    // 4 Land
    1 Wasteland
    1 Karakas
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    Currently working on: Infinity Stompy

  13. #33

    Re: [Deck] Two Green

    Krosan Grip or Beast Within seems the correct line here for that removal issue.

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  14. #34
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    Re: [Deck] Two Green

    @Barook you really want a Tracker as a Wish Target? If you already run R i would clearly see Magus of the Moon as a Wish-Win Target for some Matchups/Board Situations.

    I am glad you like Ballista too - with all the Mana including Sollands its a really solid card.
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  15. #35
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    Re: [Deck] Two Green

    Quote Originally Posted by MD.Ghost View Post
    @Barook you really want a Tracker as a Wish Target? If you already run R i would clearly see Magus of the Moon as a Wish-Win Target for some Matchups/Board Situations.
    Probably not.

    Magus of the Moon as a Wish target is an interesting thought. The deck can clearly operate under Blood Moon, even though it loses a bunch of its utility when it can't use its land abilities. And that kinda sucks.
    Currently working on: Infinity Stompy

  16. #36

    Re: [Deck] Two Green

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Edit: I want to see test results of the deck first, but we might consider Beast Within as potential removal card. The CC of fits the deck perfectly. It really depends on how problematic the 3/3 is going to turn out, but being able to deal with any annoying permanent at instant speed sounds interesting.
    What about Song of the Dryads?
    Also removes problematic non-creature permanents / indestructible creatures. And we can blow up the "forest" with Wasteland, if Abrupt Decay could be a problem...

    Also good old Ratchet Bomb worked well in Srompy/Stax shells, why not here? Blowing up Delver and Deathrite at the same time is always a good thing...

  17. #37
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    Re: [Deck] Two Green

    Quote Originally Posted by P210 View Post
    What about Song of the Dryads?
    Also removes problematic non-creature permanents / indestructible creatures. And we can blow up the "forest" with Wasteland, if Abrupt Decay could be a problem...

    Also good old Ratchet Bomb worked well in Srompy/Stax shells, why not here? Blowing up Delver and Deathrite at the same time is always a good thing...
    Good find. Like Beast Within, it comes with baggage attached, so it's hard to say which one is better. Or maybe both suck.

    Definitely on my long "to-test" list.
    Currently working on: Infinity Stompy

  18. #38
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    Re: [Deck] Two Green

    Any thoughts to playing Smugglers Copter? He can be piloted by our men whom we don't want attacking, and he loots lands into the yard for Excavator
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  19. #39
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    Re: [Deck] Two Green

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Any thoughts to playing Smugglers Copter? He can be piloted by our men whom we don't want attacking, and he loots lands into the yard for Excavator
    Slots are premium, so I'm not too sure about it. Shooting down stuff with Words of War once you're empty-handed is pretty cool, I guess, but I don't think it scales up to Sylvan Library (which is probably the better card overall).

    But test it if you wish to do. The more test results, the better.
    Currently working on: Infinity Stompy

  20. #40

    Re: [Deck] Two Green

    Needs Trinisphere - I agree on that call.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    this deck is going to want some non-zero number of loam.
    I'm not sure it's necessary, but it could be useful.
    I think it will need something to pull up your wastelands out of the deck, regardless of graveyard reclamation card choices. Realms Uncharted? No, I'd look at something that comes out earlier like Crop Rotation, Sylvan Scrying etc.
    Graveyard killing hate like RiP, Scooze & Deathrite Shaman for example, could make your deck less effective as they come out reasonably early. I'd consider some number of non-basic land tutor to keep the wastes coming.

    And just a question;
    What's your win-con against decks that don't need more than one land to build a winning board position?

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