Ruby Storm

[mistercakes]

Guttersnipe can get there. Pretty easily. After sb if you're really afraid of chalice on 2 then you can play some other artifact removal. I'm not terribly worried about it as it costs 4 mana and I can still win through snipe.

[Mr. Safety]

Chalice on 2 isn't an auto-loss, not by a long shot, as long as you have access to at least 1 maindeck Empty the Warrens. The spells are countered, but still count towards storm count. Guttersnipe is my next test maindeck, I finally picked up a set, and that is also a way to win through Chalice at 2. Just play your Magma Jets (sans scry) and dome them over several turns.

Is Blood Moon de-facto not worth slots to anyone? Am I the only one still playing them in the board? Playing against Czech Pile and Bug Leovold a t1 Blood Moon is game over. Against many other decks its good, but not great. Maybe this is where I finally cut those for other hate cards?

[mistercakes]

Chalice on 2 isn't an auto-loss, not by a long shot, as long as you have access to at least 1 maindeck Empty the Warrens. The spells are countered, but still count towards storm count. Guttersnipe is my next test maindeck, I finally picked up a set, and that is also a way to win through Chalice at 2. Just play your Magma Jets (sans scry) and dome them over several turns.

Is Blood Moon de-facto not worth slots to anyone? Am I the only one still playing them in the board? Playing against Czech Pile and Bug Leovold a t1 Blood Moon is game over. Against many other decks its good, but not great. Maybe this is where I finally cut those for other hate cards?

if you're running guttersnipe, chalice for 2 stops burning wish, ruby, and manamorphose. possibly abrade after sb as well. you should be able to kill them with 2 damage pings. you can also side in the grapeshot if you fear this, as the storm copies will hit regardless.

i dont like blood moon in the sb, but if you have a high % meta of 4c decks and lands decks then i see no problem with running blood moon. across most of the field i dont think the payoff is worth it. i'd focus on just making the deck better in general (ignore me with my random coin flipping card, i'm just having fun with that). or you can focus on the decks that are a bit more difficult (like ANT/TES/Reanimator), as they fall over to hate cards much more easily than the grindy matchups.

also if you have a meta full of elves players feel free to take an auto win by sleeving up your Ali from Cairo

[Mr. Safety]

My experience with non-Eldrazi stompy decks is that you have plenty of time to burn them out with Guttersnipe, not to mention the soonest they can have Chalice@2 is likely turn 2. So we win t1, lol. Stompy decks are going to put Chalice @1 99.99% of the time anyways, they usually play a healthy amount of 2 drops as well.

I think siding different cards than Blood Moon is a good idea to test. There's plenty of options that could be good.

[mistercakes]

i'd like to test out pyromancer ascension again in this deck


4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose

4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Past in Flames
4 Pyromancer Ascension
3 Lightning Bolt

12 Mountain
3 City of Traitors

the sb could have a dark petition, which wish -> petition with an active ascension should be a guaranteed win.

assume ascension active in play:

cast Burning Wish getting Dark Petition and Past in Flames. Cast DP (BBBBBB remaining). Get Lotus Petal + LED. Cast PiF. (BBBRRR after LED post PiF) Cast Dark Petition again, Getting BBBBBB. Fetch up Manamorphose + BW. play both. Cast Burning Wish. Get Tendrils + Anything. (this is without a medallion).

Just a thought. I'm also pretty interested in casting Act on Impulse with an active Pyromancer Ascension. Anyone else interested in testing this?

[Mr. Safety]

i'd like to test out pyromancer ascension again in this deck


4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose

4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Past in Flames
4 Pyromancer Ascension
3 Lightning Bolt

12 Mountain
3 City of Traitors

the sb could have a dark petition, which wish -> petition with an active ascension should be a guaranteed win.

assume ascension active in play:

cast Burning Wish getting Dark Petition and Past in Flames. Cast DP (BBBBBB remaining). Get Lotus Petal + LED. Cast PiF. (BBBRRR after LED post PiF) Cast Dark Petition again, Getting BBBBBB. Fetch up Manamorphose + BW. play both. Cast Burning Wish. Get Tendrils + Anything. (this is without a medallion).

Just a thought. I'm also pretty interested in casting Act on Impulse with an active Pyromancer Ascension. Anyone else interested in testing this?

It seems like a slower path, honestly. Broken, yes, but slow while making opponent's Abrupt Decays live. When do you expect to have Pyromancer's Ascension active? Turn 3 is challenging, more likely it's turn 4. I think you would have to play some sort of filtering card like Faithless Looting.

[mistercakes]

well, abrupt decay is already somewhat active vs the ruby medallion. i'm not sure how often you are winning turn 1/2, but turn 3/4/5 is very common for this deck. faithless looting is probably a bit helpful there. maybe i'll have to just run 2 looting over 2 ascension, as it will just be a secondary plan. there's also a possibility it could just be a 1 off. you never really want to see the card in multiples, but would be great whenever you do draw it.

anyway, i'll do some goldfishing today and see how it turns up. i'll start with 3 ascension and 4 bolt and work from there.

[compacta_d]

Haven't checked in in a while.

Mistercakes is probably right about Morters. Also I think I want more cards that begin with "Mizz" (joke). Been playing slivers over this deck. After Feb 10, I'll return, add win percentages to see which deck I play in Seattle.

Chalice on 2 is fine. You'll likely already have a Helm/Ruby at that point, so it would only counter Wish/Morphose/future rubys. Desperate Ritual if you are playing that. Regardless of version it doesn't turn off much as our CMC is much higher than normal storm.
They would need to have chalice on 0,1,2 and maybe 3 then MAYBE I'd feel hopeless. If you are worried about it, Abrade, By Force, Shattering Spree are all there.

Overall this deck dodges things that normal storm would be wrecked by. However QUANTITY of things will still definitely wreck it. I have won post multiple Surgicals, because it usually targets WIsh and PIF and this deck can just draw the entire deck into Tendrils.

Pyromancer's sounds interesting, and I would love to see it with some faithless and reforge, but I still think I like Mizzix's Mastery. Enough discard will definitely fill the yard, but 6 mana->cast entire graveyard for free is usually my version of that.

I do think be easy on newcomer's as there are basically 3 versions of the deck floating around the thread and it's confusing with the conversations we have. We contradict the primer a lot with different ideas and new cards.

[Mr. Safety]

well, abrupt decay is already somewhat active vs the ruby medallion. i'm not sure how often you are winning turn 1/2, but turn 3/4/5 is very common for this deck. faithless looting is probably a bit helpful there. maybe i'll have to just run 2 looting over 2 ascension, as it will just be a secondary plan. there's also a possibility it could just be a 1 off. you never really want to see the card in multiples, but would be great whenever you do draw it.

anyway, i'll do some goldfishing today and see how it turns up. i'll start with 3 ascension and 4 bolt and work from there.

Bolt certainly helps. Flashing back even 2 Bolts that get doubled is 12 damage by itself.

Regarding Decay: it does slow us down with Ruby, but it does not in any way shut off the combo. Killing Ascension is almost guaranteed to slow us down much more significantly because of your investment in setting it up. You have to dedicate slots like Lightning Bolt to make it good, where Guttersnipe (the closest analogy) is much better on the surface for providing an alternative path to victory.

[Mr. Safety]

Pyromancer's sounds interesting, and I would love to see it with some faithless and reforge, but I still think I like Mizzix's Mastery. Enough discard will definitely fill the yard, but 6 mana->cast entire graveyard for free is usually my version of that.

I agree, maximizing Faithless and Reforge is the way to make Ascension work. The problem is that Faithless is inherent card disadvantage and sets us up to get blown out by Deathrite Shaman. Abrupt Decay kills ascension. Reforge feeds them Forces/Flusterstorms/Abrupt Decays. It's the same old problem: non-blue deck matchups are significantly improved by Looting/Reforge, blue decks are significantly worsened with those same cards.

I do think be easy on newcomer's as there are basically 3 versions of the deck floating around the thread and it's confusing with the conversations we have. We contradict the primer a lot with different ideas and new cards.

I think a spot in the primer should have the significantly different versions listed, and categorized as such:

LED Versions
Non-LED Versions

The other really different point is whether to play Guttersnipe or not. I think we're getting closer to a consensus on that (it's good!) so that probably won't be a sticking point. Invariably with a quirky deck like this it will be different for every player trying to develop it. Maybe just pointing out the biggest divisions (LED, Guttersnipe) would clean up the confusion.

Everybody is trying janky shit in almost every deck thread. It's in the community's nature to tweak, change, alter these decks to fit our meta-game and style. We need to recognize that and not see it as a contradiction per se, just personal preference.

[mistercakes]

let's put up some results in a big tourney before it's completely settled. i'm fairly confident that the LED version is more optimal. there's just a bit too much synergy with burning wish, pif, and act on impulse. anywho.

i honestly just haven't the time to play. i've probably passed on 5+ mkm series tournaments since i've started this thread, maybe more. i haven't even had time to play modo since july.

Just wanted to mention that the list on the primer is more or less what I'll actually run next time I play. I just like tinkering too much if I have the chance to goldfish. Realistically you want to be an interactive deck that can win in the early turns but also engage properly. I think faithless has a hard time doing that as it's card disadvantage. Vs a non blue deck it's good, but it can be rough. Obviously it's good with the draw 7, but we should also be aware of the amount of Leovold and chalice decks. We should at least he able to go even with the grixis 4c decks (pile and delver). After that pick your chalice deck of choice and test against that.

When that is done playtest vs miracles, and then do some sneak and show matchups. After that many of the matchups are pretty open.

The primer is designed for an open meta. Local meta can allow for whatever, that's up to the user to browse through the thread.

[compacta_d]

It's not as though I don't test my ideas.

I went 6-5 with the list that had 3 reforge, 3 empties and 3 past in flames at EW. Of those 5 losses I think at least 3 were lost due to answers to goblin tokens. I could recheck my notes, but Marsh Casualties, Toxic Deluge, and Pernicious Deed were the most memorable answers. The more you rely on Empty the Warrens, the more likely you are to get blown out by Leovold decks, including Nic Fit, which isn't where you want to be.

I've been slowly testing each card 1 at a time until NYE where I swapped to slivers to practice for Seattle.

I play 2 small events a week, ranging from 8-24 ish players depending on the event and week. The list I had currently is the one I did great with 3 weeks straight, 6 events either 4-0 or 3-1. From Oct-Jan it was the deck I ran so 24ish events with it. I've probably played every version of the list you all post, EXCEPT the goblin lore one. Haven't picked those up yet.

Faithless Looting costs a card yes. Regardless of which version you play, HUF, PIF, RTS, AOI all make up for the -1 card. Even Shreds of Sanity. It also adds to storm, works out of yard, gets reduced by Rubys, and fixes hands to go off on turn 2 more times.

I think the only reason to not play an LED version is if you do not have LEDS, which is perfectly reasonable. It's mostly a budget deck anyway. I do think it does the empty plan better than belcher. Belcher does the belcher plan better than this deck.

Blue decks are Blue decks. all combo decks are going to have the same "weakness" to blue decks (except maybe dredge). I think more exposure to them will numb you to it and allow you play around it. I am more worried about RTS versus Burn than I am a Blue deck. Ruby Storm has MORE play versus the blue decks than normal storm variants IMO. The more big spells in the deck, the more you can just rip them and cast like eldrazi. We can literally just pay for Flusterstorm when storm is 25 and we have over 20 red mana. Defense Grid works very well with Reforge to also prevent things like Mindbreak Trap. It's also just good at stopping interaction with the combo. They have to counter it, use the counter, or not get to counter anything else.

We also have access to pyroblast. Can run 4. counters/counters and kill leovolds.

Yes, absolutely tune to your meta, but it isn't as though my meta isn't full of leo/blue decks and chalice decks. Red has answers to all these things.

[mistercakes]

all valid points. i'd have to have some longer testing sessions vs the control decks using defense grid. if you cast grid and pass the turn there's a very good chance it's getting decayed or commanded.

the reforge version tends to play a turn faster.

regarding the LED's. if you can't afford them, then that's what it is. you can play dredge without LED's and still get by as well, but i wouldn't say that this is a good version of the deck. everyone is prepared for the 1/1's. it also takes rollover hate that needs to deal with TNN, young pyromancer, other storm decks, death and taxes, etc.

glad to hear you've tested a lot.

the other combo (ant/tes) run a full suite of discard and that's how they get to interact. (to a lesser extent, ANT also can just overpower control decks with past in flames as well). we don't have that luxury and we also don't generally have a maindeck answer to leovold. (i also understand that most of the games are decided post board).

i'm pretty comfortable playing combo decks in general. i've played pretty much every combo deck available since 1998, so i'm aware of how to manage blue players. it's more of an understanding to my outs.

from when i was playing on modo in the summer, the blue players tended to be better on average than the ones you would play irl. at weeklies most players tend to be bad to above average. there's a chance you'll hit that same kind of caliber player in a larger tournament, but the grinders and serious players are also there. those players also tend to play blue more than other variants. those are the people i'm gunning for when i'm working on lists.

i enjoy drawing 7 cards as much as the next guy, and when i played in the weeklies they were fine. i'm not confident in those lists in terms of bringing it to a 7+ round event. it's not to say that the other versions are bad, this deck has some rough patches, as we can't really manipulate the deck very well. (faithless looting being some of the best red can offer, which isn't much compared to what the other decks in the format are doing.)

my hope is that all of this is for nothing, and that we will get a nice gift in the next few sets. (might take another year, but am looking forward to it. i mentioned this before: ANT and TES and to a lesser extent DDFT all have optimized themselves. they do run 2+ preordains sometimes, but that's about it in terms of what gets shifted around. this deck has a lot of opportunity to tinker and get better.

as soon as we can put up some results with a reasonably sized tournament, i'm happy to update the primer with lists.

[GAMEster52]

hey guys this my first post in this forum. anyhow i read the thread from time to time since a half year now. i started playing the deck in paper around the same time and since three weeks i also play it online. i always tested lots of the stuff that was mentioned here, like: Guttersnipe, Shreds of Sanity, Magma Jet, Gamble, overcome, mizzix mastery... and other stuff that i wanted to try (warping wail, reverberate, blood sun). the list i am actually playing feels pretty right to me and led me to my best results so far... would be nice to hear your opinion.

---
Mainboard

4 Ruby Medallion
2 Helm of Awakening

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose

2 Faithless Looting
4 Act on Impulse
1 Hazoreths undying Fury
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Burning Wish
2 Past in Flames

2 Empty the Warrens
1 Abrade

10 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors

---
Sideboard

Empty the Warrens
Tendrils of Agony
Goblin War Strike
Reforge the Soul
Past in Flames

Grapeshot
Cave-In
By Force

2 Abrade
3 Defensive Grid
2 Blood Moon

---
i have to say i am not caring much about graveyard hate because mostly when i played against reanimator i just went lucky. but its rarely played in my meta. because of the defensive grids and the higher chance of an early blood moon i like playing four sol lands instead of three.
i also think that the two faithless looting are really good cards because they make me keep hands that i otherwise have to mulligan. i can discard lands, get faster through the deck etc.

thanks to all of you that put so many good ideas into this. i really like the deck!

[mistercakes]

glad to hear it. let us know of your results if you play in anything big or are able to do some extensive testing vs any decklist. will add any extensive matchup analysis to the primer.

-rob

[mistercakes]

been messing around with goldfishing (no time for actual matches recently) and this one has been rather fun. i haven't messed around with commune since the summer, so it's nice to see how the deck has adapted since then. (more faith in act on impulse, and the probes/led's are fully committed)

// 60 Maindeck
// 12
12 Mountain

// 15 Artifact
3 Helm of Awakening
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

// 14 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Commune with Lava

// 2 Land
2 Ancient Tomb

// 19 Sorcery
4 Act on Impulse
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
3 Past in Flames
4 Gitaxian Probe

// 6 Sideboard
// 6 Sorcery
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Mizzix's Mastery
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Past in Flames

it's a bit slower (as you mostly want to go off on turn 3/4), but it's more resilient to leovold and you get to cast commune on their turn, which is a nice change.

[escobert]

been messing around with goldfishing (no time for actual matches recently) and this one has been rather fun. i haven't messed around with commune since the summer, so it's nice to see how the deck has adapted since then. (more faith in act on impulse, and the probes/led's are fully committed)

// 60 Maindeck
// 12
12 Mountain

// 15 Artifact
3 Helm of Awakening
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

// 14 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Commune with Lava

// 2 Land
2 Ancient Tomb

// 19 Sorcery
4 Act on Impulse
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
3 Past in Flames
4 Gitaxian Probe

// 6 Sideboard
// 6 Sorcery
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Mizzix's Mastery
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Past in Flames

it's a bit slower (as you mostly want to go off on turn 3/4), but it's more resilient to leovold and you get to cast commune on their turn, which is a nice change.

I do really like Commune in the goldfishing I've done with the deck. I'm only playing 2 copies currently. I don't however like relying on Wish targets to win. I think at least 1 MB 1 win-con is a must since Surgical Extraction is a card that gets used in almost any deck. If Wish gets extracted then it's game over.

[mistercakes]

i don't mind getting surgical extracted game 1. if they are running it maindeck, then that's just a bad beat for me. after sb i'll probably have some guttersnipes, but haven't fleshed it out much.

[escobert]

Very true, I just prefer to have one MB so I don't have to worry about siding one in games 2&3 and just in case.

Oh, and this is the list I'm currently working with:

MB:
4x Act on Impulse (M15)
2x Ancient Tomb (TMP)
4x Burning Wish (CN2)
2x Commune with Lava (DTK)
2x Desperate Ritual (CHK)
1x Empty the Warrens (TSP)
4x Gitaxian Probe (NPH)
2x Lightning Bolt (AC2)
4x Lion's Eye Diamond (MIR)
4x Lotus Petal (TMP)
4x Manamorphose (SHM)
12x Mountain (TMP)
3x Past in Flames (MM3)
4x Rite of Flame (CSP)
4x Ruby Medallion (TMP)
4x Seething Song (MRD)

SB:
2x Defense Grid (ULG)
1x Gamble (USG)
1x Goblin War Strike (SCG)
1x Mizzium Mortars (RTR)
1x Past in Flames (MM3)
1x Pyroclasm (DDK)
1x Reforge the Soul (AVR)
2x Scab-Clan Berserker (ORI)
1x Shattering Spree (GPT)
2x Silent Gravestone (RIX)
1x Surgical Extraction (NPH)
1x Tendrils of Agony (SCG)

[mistercakes]

cool it's pretty close to what i've been testing. lemme know how it goes if you play it anywhere. i've felt like i wanted more rocks for this version, as X for commune actually increases for each rock in play. 3 rocks + RR = 3 cards.