Reasons for Grapeshot:Originally Posted by Rampart
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Gaddock Teeg
Phyrexian Revoker
Vryn Wingmare
just to name a few.
Reasons for Tendrils:
Sometimes you cannot storm to high numbers, from opponents making you discard, opponents countering key spells, etc. Sometimes storming to 10 is all you can do.
???what??? I asked reasons for tendrils when we have grapeshot.
It's been a tough game. Your opponent Hymed away 4 of your cards. Thwy countered your Past in Flames. They Surgicaled your Past in Flames. You had trouble with mana reducers, due to Kolaghan's Commands. You BARELY got up to 8 storm, and you know one copy of your Tendrils won't resolve. But you have enough to flashback that Manamorphose and play a Tendrils.
Better yet. Your opponent has a Worship or an Energy Field in play. They take 0 damage. Empty won't do it. Goblin War Strike won't do it. Grapeshot won't do it. Tendrils says they lose life, not take damage. Let's try that one.
Beat me to it :) Why not one more wishable angle to win?
I'd say it's not 100% necessary, however as mentioned sometimes you can get a small storm chain.
If you are in a meta full of lands decks it gets around glacial chasm. I've won through a glacial chasm lock at least 3 times in league matches bc of tendrils of Agony.
-rob
Because it absorbs precious sideboard slots. I almost would rather have another scab-clan most of the time to put pressure on blue matchups or combo decks. I understating the flexibility that it generates but how often are you guys really need tendrils.
Worship is still answered by grapshot. Energy field is answered by reforge so I don't think those are strong arguments personally.
The Grindy picture match up is a different story. Your not going to flash back your manamorphose because your pif has already been surgicalled unless you wish post surgical for pif but then your golden anyway. Let's say you don't have anymore pif like your picture you painted. Your probably not going to get up to 7 storm normally without a reforge or a rock so you most likely are going to go for goblins.
Chasm out of lands or 12 post I think might be the real argument but I don't know how much better it I then blood moon. Also I think moon and grid share the same spot
I don't know maybe I am wrong?
I wish I'd kept better records of my matches to back the following findings with data... will start doing so! In the meantime, please take my word for it: most of my wins are from Tendrils kills (guestimating 60%), then Empty (either gobbo damage or War Strike), then Grapeshot. I've played 20+ leagues with the LED variant (my fav), Rob's OG list and the countless iterations we've tested to get here. Not looking to argue really, just putting down my experience :) Good luck!
Ok, listen, it's late, and I had A LONG day, I'm tired. Maybe my examples were poor.
All I know is that I have played against decks running True-Name Nemesis and Worship. I have also played against decks that contain Energy Field and Rest in Peace. I have even played against decks that have Nevermore in them. It's possible you might find one of these cases once in two months, but these combinations do actually exist in some metagames.
Not everyone plays the same 75 lists in the "Decks to Beat" section. People play fringe decks. People play fun cards, that are not the most efficient answers. People play for the sake of enjoying the game, not being super competitive.
I am not looking to argue either tbh. I guess what I am trying to ask is the following: tendrils accounts for roughly 60% of your kills. Why is that? Is it because it was easy? Is it a personal preference? Is it because it saves you some clicks? Is it because it was the only card that could get the win? Out of that 60% how many times was tendrils "nessassary"
Against not looking to beat someone with a stick, just looking for a more compressive answer I guess
In short you won't always get Storm = 19 or 20. You also have to deal with some of these other weird scenarios where tendrils is the only out.
I'm with the experienced boat here. Play a bunch of matches (like 25-30), and then you can do some theorizing about what to cut and add.
-rob
This comes off poorly. You answered my question. Tendrils is not nessassry but it's nice to have. Thanks
Tendrils of Agony is a convenient, lower risk, easy-to-get-to kill. It is definitively not the only card that gets the job done. IMHO, storm is less about fancy kills and mostly about efficiency. Tendrils is 10-storm more efficient that Grapeshot, 11 spells cheaper than War Strike (assuming you already had the Empty handy) and one turn faster than 20 goblins (provided they stick around long enough to connect). Is it necessary? For the purposes of this deck performing optimally, I would say it is.
Tendrils is a lot easier to kill with than Grapeshot. Most of the time, if your opponents have interaction reaching the 20 storm count is quite difficult.
Solnox on MTGO
Miracles is a good matchup for depths. Quote me on this
Griselbrand is not an interesting creature.
Dread it. Run from it. Marit Lage still arrives
Posting a report for my main man Vieko; I played a Full Fury version of the deck again at a legacy win a box w/ 10 people.
Deck List
Business:
4x Hazoret's Undying Fury
4x Burning Wish
4x Reforge the Soul
3x Past in Flames
3x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1x Act on Impulse
Mana:
4x Ruby Medallion
4x Lotus Petal
3x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Rite of Flame
2x Pyretic Ritual
4x Manamorphose
4x Seething Song
Acutal Mana:
4x Ancient Tomb
12x Mountain
Sideboard:
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Grapeshot
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Past in Flames
1x Goblin War Strike
2x Sudden Demise
3x Pyroclasm
3x Scab-Clan Berserker
2x Act of Impulse
I had a Hazoret's Undying Fury over one Act of Impulse, and the Act in the deck, but last minute decided that 4 is always the right choice for the main deck
I wanted to make room for Ignite Memories and / or Telemin's Preformance for more sideboard shenanigans.
Tournament:
Rd 1 - Miracles 2-1 (the deck is very counter proof due to all the draws and flashbacks)
Rd 2 - ANT 2-1 (Scab-Clan Berserker won G3 by itself basically)
Rd 3 - D&T 2-1 (in G1 I had to cast 3x Reforge and 2x Hazoret's Fury to find Chandra to kill Prelate on 2)
Rd 4 - Twin Blade 2-0
T4 - Twin Blade 2-0
Finals - MUD Post - ID
__________________________________________________________________
I was first seed going into top 4
Top 4 - Twin Blade
G1 - combo into an insane amount of goblins T3 on the play
G2 - I see this hand:
As I am super greedy and I feel like this is a good hand I keep it. And of course I draw a Mountain just like I planned it out.
Play Mountain and cast Lotus Petal and sac it (RR)
Cast Ruby Medallion
Exile Simian Spirit Guide (R)
Cast Mana Morphose (RR) - draw Mountain
Cast Seething Song (RRRRR)
Cast Ruby Medallion (RRR)
Cast Reforge the Souls
Draw:
Lotus Petal, Pyretic Ritual, Burning Wish, Chandra Torch of Defiance & 3 lands
Cast Lotus Petal and sac (R)
Cast Pyretic Ritual (RRR)
Cast Chandra, Torch of Defiance (R)
Activate Chandra mana ability (RRR)
Cast Burning Wish (RR) and fetch Empty the Warrens
Cast Empty the Warrens for storm 11 for 22 goblins on T1
#Winning
In the finals I ask to redistribute the prizing so that winner takes all, 1x booster box and 40$ store credit, my opponent declines so I offer the split and he accepts.
Hey folks, been following the thread for awhile and finally wanted to give my experiences and input.
I finally put the deck together in paper and took it to the biweekly Legacy FNM at my LGS. Ended up going 4-0! While I don't intend to say my opponents were inexperienced at all, I do think that none of them had seen the deck in action before so that might have increased my chances a bit. I'm not going to try to recall half-assed details but I'll go over what I want to try to change in the deck.
Regardless, here was the list I took:
Sorcery (22)
3 Hazoret's Undying Fury
3 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
3 Act on Impulse
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
Instant (12)
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
Creature (4)
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Artifact (8)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ruby Medallion
Lands (14)
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
Sideboard (15)
Sorcery (10)
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Cave-In
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Goblin War Strike
2 By Force
Instant (3)
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyrokinesis
Creature (2)
2 Scab-Clan Berserker
Round 1: High Tide - 2-1
Round 2: Grixis Delver - 2-0
Round 3: Sneak n Show - 2-0
Round 4: Grixis Delver - 2-0
Things I would currently change in my deck. The mainboard Grapeshot is pointless. If we're managing to get 20 Storm, there's no reason we shouldn't be able to access the wishboard barring Surgical effects. I'd rather make it another Empty for the 14~ ish Goblin hands.
I would drop an Act on Impulse and... something for 2 more Medallion effects. As I'm sure you all know, they're extremely powerful and I want to increase my chances of having one in my opening.
My sideboard was all over the place! The REB's helped in every matchup that night (imagine!) so I think 2, maybe 3 is a good number. I never got to effectively use the Scab-Clans but they looked great on paper versus Tide and Storm. I'm not sure the 4th Haz's is necessary in the board and I want to try Tendrils in that slot to get around Energy Field/Glacial Chasm shenanigans. Anger seems better than Pyroclasm for beating Leovold effects eventually.
While I don't have the motivation to type all the details of each match at the moment I was very easily able to power through multiple countermagic effects. Versus High Tide I forced him to burn 2 Cunning Wish to find answers instead of combo pieces very early which gave me more time to rebuild. Versus Sneak n Show I managed to sneak enough mana through a double Force turn to win. Against Grixis Delver, the Spirit Guides were able to help me bait and play through Dazes.
I think this is an incredible deck. Normally I don't play Combo/Storm decks but this one piqued my interest because it was only red AND it is strangely incredibly cheap without Chandras. The pieces only cost around $300~ if I remember correctly. That's insane for a Legacy deck that can keep up with some of the best decks in the format. Anecdotal evidence aside, of course! :)
I'll be sure to check in more as I change things around and test new cards. It might be a bit though as I've been neglecting my Goblins as of late. Have a good one, everyone!
Last edited by Dan Pyre; 08-13-2017 at 05:08 AM.
I apologize. I only say this because there's a lot of comments in this thread about what the list should or shouldn't have coming from people who either haven't played the deck much or not at all.
-rob
Thanks for the report. I think when the deck works with 14 lands (mostly to some favorable luck, the deck is really functioning like a tier 1 deck) unfortunately that hasn't always been the case and I'm much more comfortable with 15 or even 16 lands these days. I agree about the rocks and I'm pretty sure the overall consensus is no less than 6 now. I think vieko and I lost about 2 weeks trying to optimize with only 4 Ruby; it can work, but you're really pushing it. (it's compensated a little generally by running 4 probes).
I think yet another report at 4-0 and the last report resulting in splitting finals is more anecdotal evidence that the builds don't really need to be so strict.
I think it's great that you can really choose the final 10-15 cards that you want and make it your own.
@dan I'm a goblins player as well.... It just feels good winning with mountains! No fetches... No duals. Sweet!
I also have to comment that it's super impressive that you beat 4 blue decks. Congrats!
I'd prob cut the war strike and the anger of the gods for 2 more red blasts. How were those two cards for you?
I'd prob cut grapeshot and the AoI for 2 more rocks. (I'd also try to find room for another land.
@krasman, how often did you wish for AoI or side it in?
I'm happy to update opening post with non modo reports and deck lists. Will do so later today.
-rob
Also, I propose we properly name the deck as well. I'm sure the sentiment was mentioned earlier in the thread. Keep Mono Red Storm in parentheses for searching and ease of identification, of course.
My suggestion is 'Seething Storm.' It identifies one of the major cards that separates it from other Storm archetypes AND sounds super cool.
I am gonna go with Ruby Storm.
Ruby Medallion is the namesake card of the deck. I don't believe this deck have this kind of strength without a medallion/helm.
I believe the builds will also change a bunch over time. I moved from 4 hazoret's, to 3, to 0, to 1, and i think i'm back at 3 after seeing so many people having success with it. Modo can be a real deterrent from sticking with a list for a very long time.
Ruby is also a card that doesn't really do much, but at the same time it powers the whole deck, it really is the engine behind it.
I'll Pm a Mod to update the name.
Last edited by mistercakes; 08-13-2017 at 08:46 AM.
-rob
I was actually siding in both AoI in any match that had counterspells just to have more action spells as well as when I played against creatures decks I would side in the AoI along with 2x Pyroclasm & 2x Sudden Demise (leaving 1 Pyroclasm as a wish target) Mainly due to Sudden Demise not interacting good with Fury. Sudden Demise is due to lots of D&T in the meta, and just having only Pyroclasm as a board wipe is bad due to Prelate; Cave In is another option that is castible from Fury and just might be better than Sudden Demise.
Again I only had two AoI in the board as one of them was a Fury up until the just before the tournament... last minute deciding that I needed the 4x Fury, as why else would you play this deck. Realistically I would only have 1x AoI as a target in the sideboard.
As for how often I wished for it... that did not happen at all but I can see scenarios where that might be correct. I was wishing for Tendrils the most, Past in Flames sometimes (was relevant when my 3 main deck PiF were exiled by Surgical Extraction in a couple games), and Empty the Warrens as the secondary kill condition if Tendrils was not lethal or I had no black mana. I was basically not wishing for Grapeshot at all as if my storm was big enough for that to kill then I most likely had 2x Burning Wish and killing with Goblin War Strike is much more satisfying.
I do want to find room for Telemin's Performance and Ignite Memories in the sideboard. Winning from Ignite Memories is hilariously fun, not that it is a good card. I may also want to get a Hull Breach in there to have a sideboard answer to enchantments & artifacts.
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