Note: Playtesting with a "rogue deck" that is not widely recognized as a Tier 1/1.5/2/whatever deck poses additional challenges. Even experienced pilots of other decks might have no idea what we are running, allowing us to "steal wins" due to suboptimal decision making on our opponent's part. It is difficult to say to what extent the wins are due to our decklist's optimal consistency (as opposed to running a slightly different 75), what is due to opponent being confused about what we are running (we might seem like a big red, monored stompy or sneaky show variant initially), what is due to our opponent piloting their 75 (sub)optimally, and what is due to our mulligan decisions and sideboarding decisions and general piloting skills with the exact 75 we are running, and what is due to whiffing/hitting with AoI, HUF, Probe topdecks, etc.Originally Posted by mistercakes
Correct but most mtgo league grinders are very capable pilots vs Storm decks, and in some cases even against us.
Paper is much more random as you are a lot less likely to play against the same person more than once.
-rob
This is a good point. I recently won a game I absolutely should have lost, since my opponent (DnT) thought I was playing mono red Sneak Attack. He dropped a Prelate at 5 which didn't do anything to me and allowed me to storm the next turn. Also I've won some games with Tendrils where my opponent clearly thought that Goblins were my only wincon and sculpted their hand appropriately with cantrips.
the point of this was to try to give some validity to results from mtgo vs playing on paper, or playing vs yourself.
i only am making a point of this because while anyone may test any way they want, it's hard to believe many blanket statements that people make on this thread without proper testing. it will always be a consequence of a public forum, but it should be acknowledged.
-rob
I keep on testing LED list with no creatures, 1 ETW and 3 Gamble maindeck. I'm loving the deck and i've lost only 2 matches (one of them against BR reanimator with a double t1 combo) on 20 made in these days, winning against delver and S&T too.
My last addition is Commune With Lava, and i think it's a great card. Sadly i don't think we can play more than 2-3, because it's very expensive in the first stage of storming, But the possibility of being cast EOT, bailing a counterspell or giving us many resources is incredible.
yea we've tested commune a bunch. it is a really great card, but sometimes it's awkward wasting a ritual on it.
-rob
Totally agree. My 'testing' should be taken with a grain of salt. The most I can say about this method is that I can get a ton of practice games in, simply to see how the deck functions. Making correct decisions can only come through time and real experience, but some cards only take 20 practice games to reveal that they don't help the deck work.
Regarding sticking to one deck exclusively, that's definitely what I'm doing with this one. I haven't played a different deck in over a month. I have alternative decks built, but I am spending zero time on them (in Legacy.) I can't help but fool around in Modern, its another format I play, but 80% or more of my mtg time is spent exclusively on this deck, playing test games vs. myself(gauntlet) or random opponents on Magic Workstation (which is equated to casual room on MODO.)
Definitely needs to be acknowledged. As I posted earlier, I need to be careful on 'blanket' statements I make because I don't expect to play this in serious competitive events, and others will. Good words.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Yup! Commune is a ton of fun and your assessment is bang on. Unless you skew the list towards more instant Rituals + more Sol lands, the magic number is 1-2... 3 Gamble seems high for how I play the card but, curious: what card do you typically Gamble for?
My list, to be clear:
// 12 Artifact
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ruby Medallion
// 9 Instant
4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
1 Commune with Lava
// 15 Land
1 City of Traitors
11 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb
// 24 Sorcery
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
3 Gamble
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Past in Flames
4 Rite of Flame
2 Reforge the Soul
1 Empty the Warrens
// 15 Sideboard
// 5 Artifact
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Scab-Clan Berserker
// 2 Enchantment
SB: 2 Blood Moon
// 1 Instant
SB: 1 Kozilek's Return
// 5 Sorcery
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Cave-In
SB: 1 Fiery Confluence
Sideboard is in fieri, and i really need a business spell like Reforge there. Never wished for Empty anyway, always (always) Tendrils.
I'm thinking about cutting MD Empty, never used or wanted it.
@Gamble: I'm loving it, as said before, and its main uses are:
- T1 grabbing Rock (very important)
- Finding Pif
- Finding Side cards (also very, very important)
- Sometimes finding what you need (used to grab Rite or Led).
I've been testing a list, if you'd like to see. It's definitely not budget, and has been performing smoothly:
// [Legacy] Ruby Storm
// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
// 4 Creature
4 Tinder Wall
// 8 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
// 14 Land
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Mountain
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
// 22 Sorcery
4 Rite of Flame
2 Past in Flames
4 Burning Wish
4 Ponder
2 Hazoret's Undying Fury
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Empty the Warrens
// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Creature
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
// 2 Enchantment
SB: 2 Blood Moon
// 10 Sorcery
SB: 1 Apocalypse
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Pulverize
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Telemin Performance
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Hull Breach
Quick takeaways:
Tinder Wall is a very good card. It's especially precious in situations where a Thalia hits play on turn two, which it gets around without the additional investment. Additionally, it helps power out a turn-one Ruby Medallion. The ability to do that offsets the (predominant) reason to play bad cards in the deck like Ancient Tomb and Crystal Vein, and to a lesser extent City of Traitors. Not only does it block extremely well, it does just what you want on the first turn without losing a land drop (Vein) or sustain damage with a colorless resource (Tomb) that doesn't produce red mana. Life is an underrated resource here, especially in variations that run Probe and Tomb. I just think Tinder Wall is the best option for what it does.
Main-deck Empty the Warrens is honestly very good. Being on the play and navigating to a situation where you can dump 8-12 Goblins on turn one just wins free games. If you flip it off Fury, it's even more disgusting. Leaning too heavily on Burning Wish is not something you want to do all the time, and while it takes up design space it also provides a strategic opportunity to win games.
I run Volcanic Islands to support Ponder and Probe, with Performance out of the board. This also can lead to misleading situations for an opponent who may see Volcanic into Ponder and assume something much different than Ruby Storm, which again leads to free wins and the potential for changed decision trees against skilled opponents. Regardless, Ponder is just amazing by itself and bolsters consistency to the deck. When powering out a Past in Flames, sometimes Ponder is all you need in the graveyard. I think it's vastly superior than Gamble in this deck, regardless of their respective utilities. Telemin Performance is also powerful win condition against Lands, Reanimator or Sneak and Show - hence its inclusion.
The Taigas are there to support Tinder Wall, Xantid Swarm and Hull Breach out of the board. I play three because there may be situations where Pulverize is used, and having access to another could be crucial.
I am a big fan of Apocalypse or other reset-buttons out of the board. In the event you desperately need to restart the game, this is the best option available at five mana. The deck operates with fast mana inherently, so being able to recoup isn't always going to be too hard to do. It's risky, no doubt, but if you're facing down lethal and you can access it, you'll be glad you have it. I would recommend only playing this in LED builds, because spiking fast mana like LED after playing it with a discarded Past in Flames in the graveyard could be key.
I like Pulverize, as well. This deck plays plenty of Mountains to support it's alternate cost - something TES wanted to do but couldn't because of the need for extra Mountains. Getting that added value against decks that pack Chalice, Trinisphere, etc. can be critical, and the card can just win games outright.
Reforge the Soul is in the sideboard to support a draw-seven effect if needed. One thing I really don't like is giving my opponent seven fresh cards, regardless of what they're playing. You'll note decks like TES and ANT moved away from cards like Diminishing Returns because they were able to abuse Ad Nauseam. It's always nice to draw cards, but this is a card that, regardless if Ruby Medallion is in play can be a risky play. I like it in concert with Empty the Warrens main, because you can invest the mana to draw cards and eventually bait into a follow-up two or three-mana Empty for X Goblins. Other than that, I know why it's in the deck but I have my reservations.
Blood Moon is a one-card combo.
This deck is very capable of firing off big Grapeshots with multiple Pasts, and sometimes it can be used to clear the board against decks like Elves, Death and Taxes, etc.
I teeter on adding Desperate Ritual into the deck. Dark Ritual is an incredibly powerful card, and Ruby Medallion transforms it into a red Dark Ritual flat. I've seen folks eschew it, and I'm beginning to wonder if it's actually just better in this particular deck because you really want to abuse Ruby Medallion. Some lists aren't running a lot of XR spells to abuse it, which in turn kind of weakens the argument for running Ruby Medallion anyhow. To really get power out of it, I'm wondering if playing some number of Desperate Ritual with Simian Spirit Guide is optimal, or Tinder Wall with Guide. Spirit Guide is just so good in a deck like this to perform so many tasks. I'm on the fence, but Tinder Wall is just a crazy-good card for one mana. It gives you the turn-one Ruby and lets you keep your land.
Sexy list. Nice feedback. Opening up Xantid Swarm (which I just picked up 2 copies of) seems very cool.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Glad to see youre on the deck. Have always enjoyed your feedback regarding dredge.
Sad to see so many duals! I have fbb at least but would be nice without. I always suspected Ponder is a bit too good not to play, I'd still be hesitant to run the duals in a wasteland heavy metagame.
It looks like Ponder is taking the spot of act on impulse. I assume you've tested it and dropped it, but it really does feel like the reason one would play this deck over ant/TES. Could you provide what caused you to drop it?
-rob
Sexy list. I need to goldfish what you've built. Removing Tomb life loss to add more relevant t1 plays sounds very promising in theory to me. I've never been 100% sold on Gamble or Overmaster, myself. Triple Volcanic sounds like a lot to me, but then again we are not running Brainstorm, so I guess using extra fetches is just additional life loss since we are not super interested in being able to choose between RG, RU and basic Mountain lands with a fetch anyhow. If we know the opponent plays a deck without Wasteland, then I guess fetching a Volcanic, playing Ponder and pretending to be Sneaky Show or a Delver variant can give us an advantage, especially if the opponent starts to play around Daze/Spell Pierce instead of doing more relevant stuff.
Damn, I only have a highlander copy of Taiga. This might end up becoming expensive.
EDIT: Quick update. Since we are pretending to be something we are not with our manabase, shouldn't the Wooded Foothills fetches be Bloodstained Mire instead? At least to me, Wooded Foothills makes me identify a deck with Charbelcher combo, which is too close to what we are actually doing (Empty the Warrens tokens). Bloodstained Mire makes me think about Grixis Delver or Br Reanimator instead, initially. Seems like a better option?
EDIT2: What is an example scenario when B.Wish -> Apocalypse line of play makes sense? I get the synergy with Past in Flames, and I get the showboating victory of Apocalypsing with a gazillion mana in the pool, when you can PiF a Grapeshot or something anyhow. But is there actually a relevant play scenario when you actually want to exile the board at the cost of discarding your hand?
EDIT3: Since I got to discussing the topic of niche SB cards and pretending to be something other than we are, have any of you considered SB Burst of Speed or a similar effect Sorcery? This allows us to win without passing the turn with EtW tokens (so no topdeck/filtering for Engineered Explosives, Reanimate Elesh Norn, Cunning Wish for Echoing Truth or some other random answers) without showing the opponent that we also have the Grapeshot/Tendrils in our deck in Game 1, so they might think that we absolutely have to go to combat in order to win. I apologize if this topic has been brought up in the discussion earlier, as I have not read through all of the pages.
Since the list doesn't play any singleton Swamps or Forests, you could play Bloodstained Mire as it would get you any land in the deck. If you're looking for some sort of masked advantage based on the land you play, I suppose you could but the chances of you keeping a fetch up without a play - at least with what I see - won't last very long.
Also, in a situation that is completely dire where you're facing down lethal and you don't have the means to win outright, Apocalypse would make sense. With a Ruby out the investment is 1RRRR (including Burning Wish). Assuming you can Seething Song or Ritual into that play, you could take that line. Theoretically, you could cast Reforge, but there's no guarantees that would be a win and the situation may require using Apocalypse where a Reforge was already leveraged or countered. It's all contingent on the situation, but there would have to be situations that would exist where you would need a massive reset. For a small investment and one slot, it's worth having. The sideboard already has a plethora of win conditions and other utility, and much like Belcher can get away with flex spots in the board based on how straight-forward it plays. A card like Apocalypse can be quirky, but if you're in a losing situation anyhow, there aren't many other cards besides Reforge (or Diminishing Returns) that could bail you out.
Consider the age-old argument folks use: "If you're in that situation, you're either losing or winning anyhow." It's a card that twists that logic, because if you're in a losing situation you can blow up the board and play to the strengths of your acceleration off the top of your deck. No other deck in Legacy that I can think of eliminates everything in play, or has access to do so. Reforge is also no good against Spirit of the Labyrinth or Leovold, as well - two very real cards in this format.
In a situation against Death and Taxes where Thalia is holding serve and there are equipment, Vials, Batterskull, etc. doing work - Pyroclasm would be inherently bad there (especially with Mom), and Anarchy - while powerful - wouldn't necessarily save you from an active Vial and taxing lands. It's a little more narrow I suppose, where Apocalypse has more reach. Also consider Apocalypse is stronger in a deck with Ponder.
(And I hate getting off-topic, but as a cute little aside Apocalypse has intrinsic synergy with Madness cards, as well. You would satisfy the first part of the resolution of the spell by exiling all permanents, and then you would discard your hand. Reckless Wurm it up with LED, too.)
i had tried apocalypse in one of the first builds, but was a bit rough on the deck. for 1 more mana i think it's probably better to just run jokulhaups or wildfire. i know vieko tested kozilek's return and was pretty happy with it. sulfur elemental is pretty great too.
-rob
Thanks for the Apocalypse commentary!
Jokulhaups is a similar function card that has been sometimes included in monored stompy sideboards, especially in Japan. Monored stompy needs to board it in for specific MUs, so it's essentially a meta call. In Ruby Storm, I think I am beginning to see the advantage of Wishing for Apocalypse to avoid losing flexibly whenever the situation calls for it without specific MUs or meta in mind. For a heavy DNT meta, I can see Sulfur Elemental and Kozilek's Return doing more work, though, but Apocalypse is a much more versatile and "wide" card which also takes up less SB space since it's wishable. I guess the main advantage of Apocalypse, then, is to avoid having to spend 3-4 SB slots only for the DNT matchup in a metagame where you expect some DNT decks but not that many overall.
My line of thought centers around the five-mana investment with Ruby. If you can fire off Seething Song, you can make both happen. I'm also thinking of game one, where a card like Sulfur Elemental doesn't exist. Kozilek's Return is good, but doesn't handle Marit Lage or a board state with Explorations, Mox Diamonds, etc. Apocalypse terminates any dire situation, and under no circumstances is any opponent going to play around it because it's non-existent in Legacy. Which isn't bad.
Apocalypse also hits Planeswalkers, which none of those cards (includes Jokulhaups) can do. The thing is, if you're in a situation where you need to cast Apocalypse, you probably won't have more than a card in hand anyhow. And in a deck with 14-15 lands, you're probably getting value over your opponent.
Just read through pages 15-24. Found a remark which had not really been tackled thus far in the thread. Apologies for the semi-necro.
You don't need a level 5 judge for this. It's fairly self-explanatory, actually.
Reminder Text: Split second (As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't cast spells or activate abilities that aren't mana abilities.)
https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Split_second
Neither player gets to do much during their priorities until the split second spell has left the stack. Mana abilities can be activated, but that's pretty much it. Having the split second spell resolve last on the stack does not change how the mechanic fundamentally works.
If you want to make the scenario slightly more complex, imagine hitting a Reforge the Soul vs Dredge together with a Split Second spell lower in the stack. But even that should be fairly easy to resolve correctly since the Split Second wording prevents both players from doing pretty much anything complex in the first place.
On modo this is how it works, but I'm unsure if it's coded properly.
If you flip into a split second card, as soon as you click it all of the other spells will go on the stack after and immediately resolve.
I had only tried it once when the card came out and flipped a split second card and a Ruby Medallion. I clicked the split second card and when it resolved the ruby was in play.
-rob
Btw guys, Rampart's Mono Red Storm deck has been prominently featured in MTG Legacy Top 8's "Rogue Corner" of the month HERE. I still mostly lean towards this list, just running LED's in place of Simian Spirit Guides and -1 land +1 Probe.
"WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote