There's a reason why vieko and I haven't played hazoret's for about 2 months now. Just saying.
Btw cyborg: 3 Ruby is just a mistake. I also suggest reading through the thread for the evolution of the deck. It looks like you're just testing a bunch of ideas that were tested and considered not good enough. It also looks like from your comment that you just found out about this deck and for some reason are changing a bunch of cards for no reason.
-rob
Was the shell running any Gamble? If you are running a janky 2 card combo, (pseudo) tutors seem more essential to me than randomly trying to hit the pieces with HUF.
Or just "brute force draw" with RtS. Against non-blue storm hate (Canonist, Thalia) and against gy hate strategies (e.g. DRS) that might actually work.
It was the original build that was in the this week in legacy. (early June I think)
-rob
HUF is a 1 of in the board period. 100x better than Reforge in that slot.
Its the one wish target not names PIF you can keep going with and usually re-buy with a PIF.
I disagree. Reforge is a better card than HUF. Even in the sb as a wish.
-rob
This.
HUF is marginally great as a topdeck vs blue decks and grave hate, which is niche at best. But the high cmc and randomness are big problems for consistency for HUF.
In most realistic scenarios, Gamble into PiF > HUF.
This is all personal opinion based on goldfishing, though.
The only downside to Reforge is when it draws opponent's into Force of Will/counterspells. Beyond that it is literally one of the most powerful things the deck can do. Drawing seven cards is what Infernal Tutor > Ad Nauseam does, but with life loss. Hazoret's is unreliable, and is really just a way to get additional copies of something that will payoff once a ton of mana is available. The obvious best card available is Burning Wish, and the best storm engine is Past in Flames. Reforge the soul against non-blue decks has almost zero opportunity cost; Hazoret's is a roll of the dice.
In my metagame I only play 1 maindeck Reforge, and 1 in the sideboard because it is overwhelmingly blue. It's too risky to play more, but still good enough to have available with Gamble/Burning Wish. I have cut down to only 1 HUF maindeck, and even that could easily be dropped (see notes in thread.) The difference is LED: in the budget (non-LED) builds we lean on reducers much more, especially Helm of Awakening. In that sense we are slightly slower and slightly less able to take advantage of Act on Impulse. Once the engine gets rolling I think the decks are comparable as far as getting storm counts high enough for kills. The difference is +3 mana for zero that LED does, which can enable much more powerful Past in Flames stacks, or even make the difference of whether there is enough mana available to even combo off. In some games a single top-decked LED could completely change the outcome of a game (or getting one free off Act on Impulse.) So the budget decks, with more reducers, absolutely need something that will gain free mana; HUF can do that for you by hitting rituals. The risk is higher, and the payoff may not be exactly what you need. Conversely, much more games will be more easily won by LED providing black mana for Tendrils out of the board.
I stand by my theory (which hasn't changed since I first started working on the deck): us budget builders need to be ok with having a deck that relies on Empty the Warrens more than a 1-turn Tendrils/Grapeshot kill. My wins (budget version) come from Empty the Warrens in the majority of games. Yes we can still get a storm count of 20+ and grapeshot, and yes we can Burning Wish > Manamorphose > Tendrils with a storm count of 10. But those games are nut-draws, and we don't have manipulation. Without LED, I think priority #1 is big Warrens. HUF lets us go from 14 goblins to potentially a one-turn kill, so it's worth 1 slot in the budget version. In the LED build (speaking from feedback/insight from the other members on the thread, I haven't actually played that version) its just better to just max out on AOI, making for better PiF stacks.
Sorry for the long post, but I really think the 'jig is up' for HUF. In the budget version its a fun-of-one-of that can sometimes lead to bigger storm chains. I think a much better avenue to explore in the budget version is Guttersnipe, and I think even the LED builds should be playing some number. Small testing sample has shown Guttersnipe to be very powerful.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
i can still stand behind my non led builds that do not run hazoret's or maindeck empty the warrens as good enough builds. i don't think you need to rely on empty, although there's no denying that you will steal some undeserved games because of it.
-rob
To be fair I only run 1 maindeck Empty. All I meant was that I find myself running into a stalled storm chain and hitting 12-14 goblins quite often as my plan when I fizzle on the 1-turn kill. Stalling has happened much less frequently once I switched to 4x Act on Impulse, and Guttersnipe is making a significant impact on relying less on Warrens as well.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
i don't like guttersnipe after testing a few games. for me i'd rather play the big payoff cards like another empty, and 2 wheel and a helm. worth noting that guttersnipe gets around leyline of sanctity.
-rob
I guess it depends on your meta, but I am not particularly worried about overmaster.
Gamble also proves too much of a gamble for most situations. The only card I ever want to gamble for is past in flames as that mitigates the effect to some degree. So I agree with Mr. Safety at having gamble as a 1 of to act as past in flames #8 (4 burning wish, 3 pif main, 1 sb).
On the budget builds, I still think HuF is too strong of a card to pass up, but only when viewed in a certain light. The breakdown for it in my mind is either your ahead or behind, and then you cast HuF and it hits what you want or it doesn't. Sure, these situations aren't all equal but in either case when I'm ahead, if it hits or it doesn't is a net positive. You end up with 4 spells on the stack, or 4 mountains in exile that you won't draw with reforge/ AoI. Second, if we're behind and hit we could end up ahead, and in the worst case that it misses, well we were already behind.
In most cases it does what I want but it is not the card I am trying to build towards, it's just the card to get me out of some tricky situations. People may argue that empty would be just as good in these positions to close out the game, which is true, but we could also be casting HuF as our 4th spell on turn 2 where 8 goblins from empty probably wouldn't cut it.
I've gotten about 20 matches in over the last month at my lgs with a lot of a games against D&T, maverick, and lands. Which means this comes with a huge disclaimer of my opinion is a bit skewed for people in a blue-centric meta.
Good luck with the storm count everyone.
I think the more inclined you are to run reducers (at least 6+) the better HUF gets. Getting it for 5, or sometimes even 4 mana, is bonkers. I've noticed that in most situations one reducer is enough, but 2 allows for pure insanity, especially when multiple Act on Impulse are involved. Ancestral Recall is an ok card I hear. In a nutshell, I agree that HUF is an important tool for budget versions but even then I don't think more than 1-2 is optimal. You don't want to risk flipping an additional copy when the first resolves.
I've been tinkering with 2x Overmaster, simply because it increases velocity. With Manamorphose/GitProbe/Overmaster/Act on Impulse it gives 14 draw spells into the deck. With that much brute-force draw it makes drawing into payoff spells much more consistent. This is my current build that I'm testing:
4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
1x Desperate Ritual
1x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal
4x Ruby Medallion
2x Helm of Awakening
4x Act on Impulse
4x Manamorphose
4x Gitaxian Probe
2x Overmaster
4x Burning Wish
3x Past in Flames
1x Gamble
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Hazoret's Undying Fury
2x Guttersnipe
10x Mountain
4x Crystal Vein
Sideboard
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Past in Flames
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Grapeshot
1x Cave-In
1x Reforge the Soul
1x By Force
2x Blood Moon
2x Scab-Clan Berserker
2x Pyroblast
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Ensnaring Bridge
I am toying with the idea of playing no copies of Empty in the maindeck, because I think Guttersnipe with Past in Flames should be enough by itself to combo out. I love the idea of playing 5 tutors however (Gamble being able to get Past in Flames or the Empty if I need it.) If I end up with no copies of Empty the warrens maindeck, I could easily see that being Reforge the Soul, another Overmaster, or another HUF.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
My list is very similar to yours. I think others have tested out faithless looting before, but that is what I have in place of overmasters now. Provides card disadvantage, but so does gamble and at least you get to pick the cards to discard so there can still be some benefit to pitching useless lands at that point in the turn. Its not amazeballs, I don't think, but it seems to be working for me so far. Gambles haven't worked for me. Maybe its just variation on my end.
I still have 2 HuF and I think I'm going to stick with it, for now. LEDs are on my list of things to pick up over the next couple months if I can, so that will likely clear the way for the LED version of the deck. Or maybe it will go into something else lol.
I think having 1 empty in the main is good. I tinkered with grapeshot and originally started without, but I found with one copy there were times where I had the mana to cast it but not enough to kill, and having 12-14 gobbos early was enough to seal it in a couple turns whereas just letting the stack clear without any business instead was tough to recover from. Seems strange that I saw a 1 of enough to notice it, but I definitely do/did. I'm going to the prerelease this weekend and I have full intention of getting some side games in but last time I tried to play everyone backed down when they heard "legacy", so it might just not be the right store for it. Either way I'll try to add some data to the pile for you guys.
I was on a 4x Looting list for a while, it just didn't do enough for me. I have found Overmaster to be better as a cantrip, and I have a VERY blue meta. I am also of the mindset of having a couple of available slots for sideboarding. Overmaster is sometimes amazing, never really dead, but if it isn't good I board in hate, which coincidentally also comes in 2's (Moon/Berserker.)
Have you tried Guttersnipe yet? Budget lists really need to start using this guy.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I have. In fact I had a mana/cantrip/prowess deck with guttersnipe that turned into this deck after finding the thread. For some reason I couldn't quite get it to work the way I wanted it too. Felt like it was a turn slower but I'll admit I didn't take good notes/data on that, it just felt that way. Maybe I need to play more games. My experience was basically I'd play it after my mana spells then I wouldn't have much to cast and it would sit there, or I'd play it first then pass the turn to be able to run all my spells.
The budget build is reliant on a T1 ruby effect from what I've observed. With 6 ruby effects, there is a ~46% chance of having a T1 ruby in 7 cards on the play and that bumps to about 66% when you allow for a mulligan. Those numbers assume what the mana base looks like and doesn't account for things like gitaxian probe but offer a place to start.
It does make AoI look even better when you land 2 medallions, and seething song going +4 is a beautiful thing. Aside from that, I have been toying with cathartic reunion, since under one medallion it is kind of like reds brain storm. As you're going off and end up with mountains in hand you can churn them into rituals and then into better cards. Comparing it to brainstorm isn't really correct but does enable the deck.
As far as guttersnipe goes, I have some in the board for grindy match ups. My deck has been largely formed by lands and d&t as those 2 decks are largely represented in my local meta. I started with 1 grape shot main and 4 burning wish, but that loses to sanctum prelate on 2.
That's also why I was adamant in the beginning on having a wish target that beats glacial chasm so that g1 isn't an immediate concession to crop rotation.
If there are chalice decks, chalice on 2 means that I need to dig to my one of grapeshot and cast it for lethal +1 as the original spell will get countered. And although playing the whole deck on turn 2 is plausible, I would prefer to end the game sooner as opposed to later.
I want to try guttersnipe main, but I haven't actually played it yet. And I haven't sideboarded it in enough to be overwhelmed by it, but I have not cut it either.
For now I've been on the main deck 1 of empty hoping that I can keep going for a full storm count with a burning wish win-con.
However, I think you're right in the idea that you only need 1 main deck win con. So if you have some guttersnipes the empty is superfluous.
My list is very similar to yours although I'll post is anyways for the sake of comparisons.
4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
1x Desperate Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
2x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Ruby Medallion
2x Helm of Awakening
4x Act on Impulse
4x Manamorphose
2x Gitaxian Probe
2x Cathartic Reunion
4x Burning Wish
2x Reforge the Soul
3x Past in Flames
1x Gamble
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Hazoret's Undying Fury
11x Mountain
4x Ancient Tomb
Sideboard
1x Past in Flames
1x Reforge the Soul
1x Grapeshot
1x Cave-In
1x Fiery Confluence
1x By Force
1x Volcanic Awakening
2x Blood Moon
2x Guttersnipe
2x Faerie Macabre
2x Defense Grid
Vieko and I tried some pitch to draw spells and reunion never was good enough (needing 2 cards to discard) tormenting voice was better with this approach.
Not running 4 probes is likely a mistake. I've been on them for quite some time now and they really help fixing some of the consistency issues. Also being able to past in flames and drawing extra cards for life is well worth it.
Can we really stop talking about budget version vs non budget version?
I've never seen this kind of importance on any competitive deck in legacy.
Everyone here should be looking to optimize a single list.
It's taking quite some time for people to adjust.
My goal at this point is to get this deck into the established decks thread. I'm hoping it could be the same for the rest of you guys.
-rob
I agree that 4 probes is right. I got a little worried last time I played it with 2 burn players and a UR delver deck. Between the ancient tombs and the probes I was trying to mitigate the early damage. But yeah, I have been underwhelmed with reunion and that really should just read as git probe 3-4.
Let's talk about an optimal build. Is our fundamental question, what is the best storm deck? Best storm deck that plays mountains? Best storm deck the plays AoI? HuF?
If we look at the design space of storm, the established decks that win through (or have historically won through) the storm mechanic:
(1) ANT- Possible T1 win while remaining consistent in turns 2-5.
(2) TES- Faster more likely T1 storming, and a slimmer curve allows for a stronger use of AN as an engine. Less stable mana base.
(3) Belcher- Fastest, most consistent T1 win. Will probably lose if the game goes to T3.
(4) Tin Fins/Reanimator Storm- Capable of winning in the combat step and on the stack. Can generate arbitrary storm count, arbitrary mana, and arbitrary life. Most susceptible to grave hate.
(5) High Tide- Plays counterspells. Slowest of the storm decks.
(6) Doomsday- I have no idea what they do.
(7) Spanish Inquisition- Draw 4's? Not favored.
(8) Cheerios- Glimpse turns most of the deck into cantrips. Not favored
The further you push LED because it's good with AoI, PiF, and burning wish, then we can arguably add the best card with LED; infernal tutor. Infernal tutor leads us to dark ritual, maybe a badlands, maindeck tendrils, hmm, these aren't good with ruby so let's cut those, we need an engine now, +AN and brainstorm is better that AoI, do we want speed then TES, else ANT.
Why would any one play this deck over ANT or TES? It gets to play interesting cards that are vintage lite? Doesn't make it better or worth while. We get to play blood moon? That's a boon, but since ANT and TES can do so well without blood moon I'm not sure it is needed.
I'm not just trying to be difficult, as far as I've understood it, our edge is that we can be faster than ANT and more consistent than TES while being the cheapest storm deck by a wide margin.
But if you really not interested in people discussing variants to better understand the common core, yeah, LED is great. You're right and I'm not really sure what is left to be solved. I like your list. Just 5-0 a few more times on mtgo and I'm sure this thread will be in the established section.
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