I think the 2 damage is more effective just because you can get a few spells in there and win randomly sometimes with past in flames by just chaining your rituals again. Also, LED = Lion's Eye Diamond.
-rob
last list:
11 mountain
2 ancient tomb
1 city of traitors
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Burning Wish
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Act on Impulse
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Helm of Awakening
2 Shreds of Sanity
2 Guttersnipe
1 Gamble
3 Past in Flames
going to test the following. (i actually had a similar list back on page 4/5/6 (can't recall) in the thread)
to be tested list:
3 mountain
2 volcanic island
2 bloodstained mire
2 scalding tarn
2 wooded foothills
2 ancient tomb
1 city of traitors
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Burning Wish
2 Ruby Medallion
4 Act on Impulse
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Helm of Awakening
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Desperate Ritual
1 Shreds of Sanity
1 Gamble
3 Past in Flames
the main difference here is that when i tested gifts ungiven originally i was still running hazoret's and simian spirit guide over probe and a full set of act on impulse. it's only a 2-off in this version, but it functions more like the additional tutor that this deck needs. the mana base is still a little rough, and will still keep it at 14 lands with the help of the playset of probes.
this will also allow for a more transformational man-plan with 4 guttersnipe as opponents are extremely inclined to bring in graveyard hate against this list.
the other main addition here since 5 months ago was the addition of a shreds of sanity, which i really like, and it adds a lot of benefits with gifts ungiven, giving you a perfect tutor setup if you have enough mana.
also need to note the 4 helm over 4 ruby here, as multiple helms are helpful for gifts (still undecided if this is a mistake...it's obviously much worse vs a deck like eldrazi or death and taxes.
-Rob
-rob
Do you mind me asking what's in your SB?
I recently picked up this deck, but have been playing dark rituals instead of seething song (and running 7 fetches, 2 badlands and 2 mountains), because I had all cards except the songs. Now that Ive acquired the songs and tried the classic build, I actually miss the rituals. Songs are great with a medallion, but ritual was better when a medallion was lacking. So songs felt a bit like winmore. Has anyone tried dark rituals in a blacksplash?
If you're going to play with dark ritual and rite of flame then prob just run TES.
Why is song a win more but ritual is not when they provide the same net mana? (+2)
-rob
I agree with you here. Seething Song has one big upside that Dark Ritual does not: it gets you to a critical 5 mana, which allows for Past in Flames + R floating even without a Medallion/Helm. Once Medallion/Helm are on the table it becomes a +3 ritual, which beats Dark Ritual all day long. It's deceptive, but Medallions actually net much more than 2 mana in a game. If you track how much mana it 'gives' over a turn, it has a better return than Lion's Eye Diamond, which is +3 for zero.
I wouldn't say, however, that a black splash necessitates just going for TES. It really depends on how deep you go. If there aren't any LED's in the equation, maybe it's a situation where Dark Ritual is being used as a substitute for Desperate Ritual/SSG/Helm (which typically take up around 4 slots, so it's an even swap.) That opens up opportunities for other tutors (Dark Petition) and discard. I'm not saying this is the right way to go, but it's ONE way to go. I could see Dark Petition into Tendrils (maindeck) being a way to attack from the same angle as traditional storm without going too deep. With that said, I know that TES has much better color-fixing for allowing for red and black rituals, which this deck attempts to make up for with Manamorphose. I know that without LED's I've debated going for a black splash.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
It was an impression I had when I switched from rituals to songs, as the rituals seemed better pre-medallion (more easy to make stormcount with Past in Flames without a medallion, and another way to cast a T1 medallion). Where Songs were better post-medallion (providing +3).
EDIT: the comparison with TES helped me clear my mind. TES resembles a non-medallion gamestate and Dark Ritual is better here than Seething Song (if they would be aquals in providing the same net mana, Seething Song would at the very least be played instead of Rite of Flame). That's why I called Seething Song a bit winmore, games with a medallion in play are usually looking good already, where the games without one are where we struggle.
As for why not entirely switching to TES, the beauty of this deck lies in the medallions, PIF and Act on Impulse enabling a more grindy game as well. Thats what defines the deck more than a splashcolor or a specific accelerant.
Splashing does make you vulnerable to wasteland. Then again, aren't we already vulnerable to wasteland in Ancient Tomb?
Last edited by Ingo; 11-30-2017 at 12:04 PM.
I don't think games where there isn't a medallion are a struggle. They are harder to achieve that endless stream of storm, but getting to storm 10 and BW > Tendrils is still very achievable. Yes Medallion can fuel some broken turns, but getting 12-14 goblins t1-2 can also win a ton of games.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Not really, or at least not in the same way. Tomb is there (mainly) to speed out a medallion/helm. It's not getting us to a second color or anything, and once the rock is in play it is almost not needed (since the colorless piece of the mana goes away for a lot of spells). Almost. I don't know how others play, but for me I open with a mountain if i'm not dropping a rock, that way I can drop the tomb t2 and then have 3 mana available, rather than let it sit exposed. If someone wants to waste it then, fine, but i already got my 3 mana into a song or whatever i need it for.
So, yes, losing a tomb hurts (moreso if the rock isn't in play yet), but it isn't like we just got crippled by losing the fetch and the dual or whatever.
Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors/Crystal Vein are all more akin to rituals than they are lands, at least in my opinion. I agree with you here. It forces us to making correct sequencing and mulligan evaluations. Regardless of what else is in our hand, we need an initial red source to do anything, so keeping a Sol land hand without mountains/Petal/SSG is very risky, and even riskier without an actual Mountain. Sequencing Mountain before Sol land in the absence of a Medallion/Helm is one of the dynamics of this deck that can almost be said to be a rule.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I'm debating on taking this to a 5k in March but I want to evaluate potential matchups. What do you guys who have a bit more experience with this deck believe to be the good/bad/even matchups? Especially against the tier 1 decks?
For reference, I have access to this deck, BUG delver/control, czech pile, U/R delver, Lands, Turbo Depths, Eldrazi Stompy, Burn, reanimator and potentially bomberman.
Once you go Legacy...
If you are really worried about it I can play vs a dredge deck that I have and let you know my thoughts on the matchup. Not exactly T1 but it may be back on the rise.
Yeah, sure! I've had very little legacy time lately since I started taking Cisco Certification classes on legacy night (stupid!). Any input is appreciated. In the limited time I have had, I have noticed that the deck actually seems pretty great against blue decks. I've found that baiting counterspells is generally pretty easy with burning wish, then just flashing it back later gets the job done fine. I really like guttersnipe alongside lightning bolt and I'm not sold on Gitaxian Probe, but that's all I got.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Once you go Legacy...
So lately I have been working so much I just took a break from live Magic and have only been playing online and only playing this deck. Here is where I am at as of right now really just working on the SB as I like the main deck a lot. I liked the black splash still for discard and as of right now 1 massacre but game 1 I just want to be able to do my best Belcher/TES impression and with Act/PIF you have solid ways to grind through countermagic already.
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Burning Wish
4 Act on Impulse
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Desperate Ritual
4 Ruby Medallion
1 Helm of Awakening
3 Past in Flames
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
1 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
2 Defense Grid
2 Rending Volley
1 By Force
1 Massacre
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
went 2-2 at local TNM legacy.
I'll post list after. I finally got to sit down and hash out a bunch of goldfishes to settle upon a list.
Mizzix's Mastery is insane and I think we were wrong about it. Looks bad on paper. Plays amazing. Burning wish, crack LED, overload is my favorite play right now. Cast entire graveyard.
RD1 Lost to Tin Fins. Not sure this deck will ever have game against Tin Fins. Turn 0 Emrakul+Collective Brutality put me to 3. He saw my hand with probe and he slammed it. Here I could have gone, fetch land petal ruby, but I went Tomb ruby, thinking I'd draw a mountain. Had petal and faithless in hand. 3 petals faithless lootings drew me into the other 3 fetchlands straight. FINALLY bit me in the ass, but i could have played it differently. AT that point, I could have seething songed up and flashed multiple lootings for a hail mary. Should have because I was dead anyway. Misplays from not playing the deck for a while and changing too many things.
rd2 beat merfolk. Got to overload Mizzix's Mastery 2 games in a row. Feels good. No insane plays.
rd3 v friend on miracles. I actually fizzled a game. Game 2 I went for Past In Flames and should have went for Reforge instead. Misplayed. he was able to stick a canonist. Canonist hurts pretty bad. I'm also a storm noob so I made bad choices.
rd 4 beat Turbo Depths. Hand disruption takes Burning wish. I slam a ruby. He gets a 20/20. I win next turn because it doesn't have haste. He gets game 2 turboey. Game 3 I keep worst hand, but want to play it out. Tomb-petal-petal-petal-led-act on impulse (hold mizzix). Act whiffs. He gets the Lage ready. I natural miracle a reforge the soul and go off from there. No black mana source. Burning wish for tendrils, faithless looting, overload mizzix.
4 Faithless looting
4 probe
4 manamorphose
4 song
4 rite
4 wish
4 act on impulse
4 petal
4 led
3 ruby
2 helm
2 reforge
2 mizzix
1 past in flames
1 grape shot
4 tomb
4 red fetch
5 mountain
SB:
1 past in flames
1 tendrils
1 reforge
1 mizzix
2 def grids
2 scab clans
1 flame slash
1 by force
1 abrade
1 cave in
2 blood moons
1 magus of the moon
I am VERY set on this maindeck list. It's preformed fantastically for me, despite my own mistakes. I am gonna try to squeeze a chrome mox or 2 somewhere in there. Possibly one less land. Double Helms allow defense grids for freebie post sb when you are wheeling your opponent into their Mindbreak traps and flusterstorms. Also just pay for the flusterstorms. It's fun tilting control players when you're like "ok I'll just pay for 11 of the copies".
Ruby's reduce both flashback and overload, so it's good times to faithless looting 4 times in one turn too. Mizzix's Mastery works well with it.
edit- sb needs work though admittedly.
Its early in my testing, but I'm going to say this deck is a solid turn faster than Normal/LED dredge.
That being said, I just had the most incredible game and i wish it happened in a real game and so someone else could see it lol. I'll try to describe here.
The scene: 2 turns in.
Dredge doing its thing, albeit "slow." Too many Ichorids and not enough dredgers in the yard to go full off or black creatures to exile, but still manages to rip cards from hand and deal some damage. Gets me (storm) down to ~8 life (thanks probes) with lethal coming next turn in the form of 12 zombie tokens plus 2 ichorids coming back. Do or die, so I start wheeling, with my only cantrips being Probe and manamorphone. Start with gas, then PIF, then more gas (and cantrips) and manage to AOI into a ETW for 32 gobbos, but in the process I am down to 2 life with nothing left to flash back other than mono red gas and a hand of 3 tombs + probe (that I can't cast) and 2 ruby in play. I live another turn. Dredge goes, brings back ichorids and after doing math that he can survive the attack next turn, swings with everything that I must block. I block and go down to 18 goblins, with dredge player at 17 life (and will have 4 untapped 2/2 tokens after combat from the bridge). Next turn coming again with more, so i need to finish off this turn. I draw... lotus petal. Great. Here goes nothing.
Hand: 3 tomb, 1 probe. At 2 life. 2 mountains and 2 Rubys in play.
Crack petal, Play probe. Draw AOI.
Play AOI, have 1 R left from a mountain. See HUF, Shreds, AOI.
Cast second AOI. Get Land, Ritual, something else.
Play land, cast ritual (RRR), Play shred (RR) grab a seething song and AOI back.
Play song (RRRRRR), play aoi, draw into a wish and then grab war strike from the board for 18 damage. Holy shit. All that off a lotus petal into probe.
Anyway, just wanted to share that with everyone. The deck is so fun to play and hard to stop once it starts rolling. And sometimes even when it does stop haha.
So, after 7 rounds with dredge, Storm is up 5-2, with total game record 11-8. Everything was 2-1 except one 0-2 and one 2-0 fwiw. Playing first is stronger (in this matchup) so far.
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