I have had similar experiences where the game isn't completely over until you are literally at 0. The grind factor of Ruby Storm is definitely a selling point, something we've mentioned a bunch of times in relation to whether discard/disruption is necessary. Now let me plug Overmaster again for the exact reason of your sequence above: it would have done essentially the same thing in your scenario above. While others have been skeptical of Gitaxian Probe, I would play 7-8 copies if I could (hence Overmaster.) Overmaster is likely the best red one mana cantrip, that sometimes has an additional value. I play 11 cards that just straight up cycle (4 probe, 4 Manamorphose, 3 Overmaster) paired with 4 AoI and BW > Reforge the Soul. That's 19 ways to see more cards, which I think really helps offset the lack of filtering cantrips like Brainstorm, Ponder, etc.
I also noticed that LED was *not* part of that equation. I'm not saying LED isn't the nuts (it is) I'm just saying that even if someone doesn't have LED's they can still sleave up this deck and have a reasonable chance of winning. No LED's isn't a good excuse to leave the deck alone, it just gives you motivation to get them even more. I've been testing the deck again lately and I've actually gotten a bunch more t2 wins, and learned a ton about how to sequence. This deck really rewards repetitions and practice, in any version.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I don't run the LED build because I didn't get them until this week, and they went into a different deck haha. I'm not opposed to proxying them and just swapping out when needed, its just a time factor for me right now.
That said, I do like overmaster. I don't have any in there currently, but may put a couple back in. I liked it when I first used it then kind of made a bunch of changes at once so it was tough to feel the effect without it. Probably what I will replace my HUFs with. You and others in here definitely play this deck way more than I do.
Funny you should mention HUF...I was thinking of going back up to 2 copies the other day. I play 3x maindeck Warrens, but that might be 1 too many. I want another big payoff card, and Reforge has proven to be too risky (still one in the board.) HUF seems to be the right card, or maybe just jam the 4th Overmaster.
I have a Legacy tournament coming up in February, and this is one of the decks I'm considering.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Try Mizzix's Mastery. It's super good, tutorable and fun to overload.
I may add mizzix to the SB. I have a HUF there that I never wish for really, so that would probably be an easy replacement. I do have a Reforge in the SB as well, but that sometimes gets used, depending on the matchup.
Mr. Safety, I'll post my list tonight. Its pretty close to the standard build but just in case there are any differences.
I have zero room in my sideboard for another wish target, so tutorable isn't a selling point. I'm much more on the turbo-warrens side of the argument, mostly because I don't feel the need for more PiF effects, I want something that *doesn't* require the graveyard.
@ronco: Thanks! I will definitely compare notes.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
HUF should only be used in versions that have both LED at 4 and a higher than 1 count on Empty in the main. Since I run the max Empty main I love HUF as a primary wish target. Many times I have had to YOLO and it gives you the best chance to hit when you can essentially cascade into a Empty+1-2 freebies or PIF+1-2.
I would run Reforge in a non-LED build and 0-1 Empty and I would never run Mizzix.
I don't think in the last 100+ games has HUF or PiF not been good enough as a wish target unless I am getting TOA/ETW/GS to just win or try and win the following turn.
How's Guttersnipe working out for everyone? I'm excited now that his new art is available from iconic masters, I feel his flavor text represents this deck entirely too well.
Flavor aside, are there any different play patterns that come up when he's in the deck? Do you force him down first and combo or just try to work him into a ritual cantrip chain?
What are more common lines of play that show up and decisions to be made? I rarely get to play against anyone these days so I'd like to see if I'm just trying to go off too early or not soon enough.
Do we often wind up on turns where we just have to pass or is that a bad keep?
Is it ever a good play to use act on impulse before a Ruby helm comes down?
What do you do differently in a game lacking a helm/Ruby?
And lastly, when is it a good plan to hold your cantrip and spells vs just playing them and hoping something shows up?
My answers to the above:
1) I'll defer to others on this, but in my limited experience it happens sometimes. I won't say its often though. Early its not bad, like sometimes I just have no 1 mana gas, so its mountain, then pass, then mountain and try to go off t2. Or sometimes I'll drop a t2 rock then go for it on 3. Just depends.
2) I do it all the time. I've had this deck go off without ruby or helm to get it going. I'll eventually AOI or HUF into one (or 2 or 3) but it isn't necessary, It just really helps.
3) see above. Generally I don't go for the full combo win (tendrils or ETW + War strike) but you can usually get a good horde of goblins out early, like 12 or something. That is often enough to ride to victory or at least put the opponent on a clock and force them to answer those instead of going about their own game plan. Or, you can always do it on two turns depending on the mana. Get a grapeshot for 10 or so the next turn PiF and recast the gas and hit for 11. I don't run grapeshot main but some do.
4) I don't know if this is the correct move or not, but if you are talking something like a git probe, I generally hold those until its storm turn. I'f i'm just playing tomb then rock and passing the turn, I won't try to probe into a lotus petal or something. I'll take my chances and wait for a full untap.
The list I am currently running.
11 Mountain
4 ancient tomb
2 helm of awakening
4 ruby medallion
4 seething song
4 desperate ritual
4 rite of flame
4 lotus petal
4 manamorphose
4 gitaxian probe
4 burning wish
4 act on impulse
3 past in flames
2 Hazoret's undying fury
2 shreds of sanity
1 empty the warrens
Sideboard:
1 Goblin war strike
1 Hazoret's Undying fury
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Reforge the soul
1 By force
3 guttersnipe
3 defense grid
1 pyroclasm
1 past in flames
Wheel/draw/cantrips:
16 (counting shreds, not counting wishes)
Mana generators:
20, counting lotus petals
I do think mizzix is better with led.
May be a stretch without it.
Between reforge, act, wish, past, and mizzix the amount of led pinpoints in the deck are absolutely insane.
Been considering going to desperate rit instead of seething song. Song is more payout with more Ruby's but I find I get stuck sometimes and prefer to reduce that. Plus the arcane actually outdoes song when spliced.
This may be dumb but with HUF and empty or any storm spell, in what order must you cast things to get the most storm triggers?
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Once you go Legacy...
They go on the stack in the reverse order you want them to resolve. So with HUF, everything gets cast "at the same time" after HUF resolves. So you stack it with, say:
ETW first, then gas, gas, rock (or whatever). then upon resolution, it goes Rock, Gas, Gas, ETW.
I'm 99.9% sure that is the correct operation.
You are right about everything you said, but it's not an answer to the question ;). As you said huf casts them all at once and you get to stack them. So huf begins resolving, you cast the spells, putting them onto the stack in any order. The storm trigger triggers. Huf finishes resolving and you put the storm trigger on the stack, ontop of everything else.
You are right. I misunderstood the question (and HUF, really, for that matter). In case anyone is curious, form the Oracle:
-If any abilities trigger as you cast any of those cards, they won’t be put on the stack until after you’re done casting them. They’ll resolve before any of those spells.
-If you cast any of those cards, you do so as part of the resolution of Hazoret’s Undying Fury. You can’t wait to cast them later in the turn.
Update: I tried 2nd HUF in place of 1x Empty, didn't like it. The Empty > BW > War Strike plan is really strong. Quite a few t2 kills as of late, which is really nice. One of them through t1 Thoughtseize, t2 Hymn to tourach (on the draw.)
This is one of 2 decks I'm deciding on for a Legacy event in February, so putting in a bunch of reps with both.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I've been out of the loop for about a year and change, this deck is totally new to me.
Am I mistaken that this is potentially a better Belcher deck? The red acceleration, wish targets, etc. seem a more stable option, but as derp. Already have Belcher built, putting this together doesn't seem too far different.
Are folks generally pro LED if available. Some decklists don'the include.
This deck is not Belcher... In my opinion, this is no doubt way better. Does it win T1? Rarely. T2? Occasionally. T3...T3+? yes. This deck is significantly better than a basic belcher deck "win on T1 or concede" due to its ability to win through all forms of disruption. Everyone else who has put in reps will agree - This deck grinds. You have the capability of winning on turn 8 just as much as on turn 3. The redundancy and resilience it provides makes this a deck that I think is better than you think.
I am running 2 LEDs - which, yes, is middle of the road... To reference the originators of the deck, some will push the full 4 LED and go for the immediate tendrils win, others aim for the Empty the Warrens win. Maybe I am playing both sides of the fence, but I think its worth it for the multiple win conditions. I feel that the Empty plan has won me just as many games as Tendrils - therefore I like 2 Empty main deck and the one Tendrils in the Wish board.
With regard to the sideboard - the following list subject to change. I've also experimented with Telemin Performance, Fiery Confluence, Pyroblast, and Anger of the Gods.
2 Guttersnipe
4 Manamorphose
4 Rite of Flame
7 Mountain
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Burning Wish
2 Empty the Warrens
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Past in Flames
4 Act on Impulse
1 Gamble
1 Shreds of Sanity
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Helm of Awakening
4 Seething Song
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 Scab-Clan Berserker
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Goblin War Strike
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 1 Cave-In
I think the deck is pretty close to a standard build now (about 5-7 cards maindeck difference if you exclude choice of lands)
I actually don't like maindeck empty, but that's just a preference of mine. I'm finally sold on some. Number of guttersnipe, he's a great threat and if unchecked, you will the game shortly after.
I experimented with gifts ungiven again, but it wasn't as good as hoped for.
The only thing left for this deck is waiting for more cards to come out. Since it's mono red, they might not show up as often, but any analogue of act on impulse or manamorphose would be huge.
This deck will only get better in time, I don't think the same can be said for Belcher, ANT or TES.
Be mindful of the rise of miracles again, there may be a preference for running red blasts/pyroblasts if Counterbalance sees a lot more play again.
I'll finally have a chance to play a local again this week (after months), so I'll update after that.
Hope all is well with the rest.
I'm on 3 guttersnipe, 1 shreds, 1 helm, 0 empty, 1 gamble.
Rest is pretty stock for my builds.
-rob
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