Time to buy more cards...
@mistercakes- why the 3 EtW''s in sb? Seems excessive, or are there time you board those in and the enchantments out?
hahaha :)
i'm basing this off of the success of TES in recent months. they load up on empty after sb for the grixis delver matchup. it could also be useful for the czech pile, but they can still luck you out with one of their 3+ sweepers.
against grixis delver you can leave a lot of it still in, but vs czech pile i'd consider bringing in a bunch of stuff. i will need to test both matchups though.
vs miracles i'm not sure what to do yet! depends on if they run rest in peace or not.
-rob
was thinking i might want to run a shreds of sanity over the 2nd grapeshot. will have to test as well. can do some weird things with that.
edit: didn't come up enough. either run a 2nd grapeshot, or if you are in a meta full of ANT, you can run sadistic sacrament. worth noting that if you have an active ascension, sacrament can potentially kill TES (as long as they aren't holding the win cons in their hand, same goes for ant). copy also will copy the kicker. so if for some reason you can generate 7BBB you can exile 30 cards. that's cool and useless. i like it.
Also testing 2 pyromancer and a maindeck gamble instead of 3 pyromancer.
Last edited by mistercakes; 03-15-2018 at 04:16 PM.
-rob
was goldfishing a bit more and i think it's safer to just play the 13th land over the 8th card here.
dropping bolts down to 2 (dunno if that's wise or not yet), but want to run 4 pyromancer as it's just a bit too good as an engine. still keeping the 1 maindeck empty as i'm running a dark petition in the sb and it's a useful tutor target.
-rob
I purchased the remaining cards for a Dragonstorm variant, spoiler, it's not very good lol. I'm currently going old extended tech with Lotus Blooms, which are abysmally slow by legacy standards (turn 4 combo.) Getting to 9 mana however is quite difficult, and when you consider Burning Wish as well it's at least 10 mana. That means we still need Ruby's and Past in Flames to get to a high enough mana count...and at that point you can win with Tendrils, EtW, or Grapeshot. So I'm playing 4 maindeck Blood Moons as plan #1, which should buy time to get to turn 4.
Here is my testing list, it's quite awkward, but it does what its supposed to do by turn 4.
Dragonstorm Moon
3x Dragonstorm
4x Burning Wish
4x Thundermaw Hellkite
3x Bogardan Hellkite
4x Lotus Bloom
4x Lotus Petal
4x Ruby Medallion
4x Rite of Flame
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Seething Song
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Blood Moon
4x Crystal Vein
9x Mountain
Sideboard
3x Empty the Warrens
1x Dragonstorm
1x Past in Flames
1x Grapeshot
1x Pyroclasm
2x Scab-Clan Berserker
2x Tormod's Crypt
4x Pyroblast
Hardcasting Dragons is not unreasonable, especially after Blood Moon and several turns to draw extra mana. I think for now the SSG's are necessary to really push for a t1 Moon. I think boarding in Empty the Warrens and other cards in cases where Blood Moon is bad is a decent plan, considering it would need a faster combo turn than t4.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Hello. I'm new and I've read almost all of the thread. I've never played Legacy before because it's been prohibitively expensive unless I play burn but now here's a budget-friendly combo deck. Thanks for that, this will probably be my way into the format. I can't justify the LED's until I've tried the format to see if I like it though, so I'm holding off on those for a bit and I've been testing (against AI, so goldfishing) this list:
// Main:
4 Act on Impulse
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Burning Wish
2 Desperate Ritual
2 Gamble
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Guttersnipe
2 Helm of Awakening
4 Lotus Petal
4 Manamorphose
11 Mountain
3 Past in Flames
2 Pyromancer Ascension
1 Reforge the Soul
4 Rite of Flame
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Seething Song
// Sideboard:
2 Abrade
1 By Force
1 Cave-In
3 Defense Grid
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
2 Scab-Clan Berserker
1 Tendrils of Agony
The sideboard will probably need graveyard hate but I haven't figured out what yet.
I agree with consensus in this thread that HUF whiffs too often on its own, but if you've got Pyromancer Ascension active it seems to win the game basically 100% of the time, so I've got one in the wishboard which comes out for those rare occasions when you have an active Ascension, enough mana to cast HUF and not enough storm count or stuff in your graveyard to want to go for a win con or PiF. This is very rare though so I might still drop it for being too cute. Definitely better than Reforge when you have the Ascension online though.
Ascension is also impressive because it fits this deck's main advantage over TES and ANT (as far as I can tell anyway) which is being able to keep pushing through disruption. This deck also seems better than others for taking a risk trying to go off earlier and if you end up missing you just need a PiF or a Wish (Gamble in a pinch) and you can just carry on.
I added two Helms because in the LED-less build you almost need one the turn before you go off. On the right draw you can win without but it's not consistent. If I was to throw in LED I'd probably drop those and the Desperate Rituals.
Gamble has been great almost every time I've cast it. Even with an empty hand, getting PiF in the yard is super valuable if the game goes grindy and early on I've used it to find that one extra ritual or cantrip to keep going, so I think I prefer two rather than one.
Guttersnipe is nuts. Games for me ideally start with an early Helm or Medallion, start going off the turn after dropping one and I'll usually hit one of the two Guttersnipes along the way and it wins the turn it's cast. I know it's soft to removal though so I don't know how keen I'd be on it if I was playing against real people. Two seems like the right number because to counteract its squishiness you usually want to pick one up during a combo chain.
One Reforge in the main, one in the wishboard. I'm really scared of using it against blue decks but I think starting with it there and being able to Gamble or Wish for it is correct. I could see trying Bedlam Reveler over it though if giving your opponent a full grip starts to look too risky. Format-dependent and I don't know the format. It's also just bad in the FoW match-up because it's the one big spell that they obviously need to counter whereas all the other spells just provide incremental advantage. Possibly an argument for Overmaster, but I wouldn't want to play many of those so hitting Overmaster and Reforge at the same time just seems too unlikely.
I'm trying three Ancient Tomb because hitting one later after playing a couple of Medallion/Helm is really bad. Also makes the deck cheaper. Slightly reduces the odds of T1 Medallion/Helm but I don't mind throwing away a Lotus Petal or Rite of Flame to get one in play. Not sure about this yet. It might also be correct to go up to 15 land anyway but I don't think I'd go higher than that.
There are my thoughts if anyone wants them. Obviously not knowing Legacy well I'm not sure how valuable this is. I hope that I can build something similar to what I've posted here then upgrade it with LED's later and it be properly competitive.
glad to hear you're on board with the deck.
some feedback:
4 Act on Impulse
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Burning Wish
2 Desperate Ritual
2 Gamble
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Guttersnipe
2 Helm of Awakening
4 Lotus Petal
4 Manamorphose
11 Mountain
3 Past in Flames
2 Pyromancer Ascension
1 Reforge the Soul
4 Rite of Flame
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Seething Song
consider cutting 1 past in flames, 1 reforge for 2 lightning bolts. also there's a possibility you'll want to try cutting . 1 helm and 1 guttersnipe for 2 more bolts. it will give you a better game vs all the decks that rely on DRS/delver/Thalia/Leovold.
-rob
I'm going to start testing a 4x Blood Moon maindeck list. One thing I liked about Dragonstorm was that it forced me to play a slower game, which made Blood Moon work quite well. I think I'll drop the DStorm idea but keep the Moons, and try it out.
2x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
2x Desperate Ritual
4x Manamorphose
4x Lotus Petal
4x Ruby Medallion
4x Burning Wish
3x Past in Flames
1x Shreds of Sanity
1x Empty the Warrens
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Act on Impulse
1x Hazoret's Undying Fury
4x Blood Moon
4x Crystal Vein
10x Mountain
Sideboard
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Past in Flames
1x Grapeshot
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Reforge the Soul
1x Pyroclasm
1x By Force
3x Pyroblast
2x Scab Clan Berserker
2x Tormod's Crypt
Depending on how much saturation DRS has in my local, which varies substantially, I would end up going back to Bolts. Moon is amazing t1, which is pretty easy in this list, but on the draw with opponent's landing a t1 Deathrite it becomes much worse. Moon makes SSG a decent option, even for beats if I land it early.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Thanks for the advice. I gave it a try and I found the deck a bit too inconsistent without the final Past In Flames. I'm on board with Bolt though, so I've dropped one Gamble and the main deck Reforge for Bolts. Seems to work well. I could also see Bolt over one Guttersnipe. I also tested dropping a Helm but this build of the deck really wants all six it seems. I might just be playing it wrong though; I almost always mulligan unless I have a Ruby/Helm and mana to cast it.
To make up for just playing two Bolts, I also put Mizzium Mortars in the side board over a Defense Grid. We'll see how that plays out; having not played against any humans yet I don't know. My plan for graveyard-based decks at the moment is to just be faster than them but I'm not sure that's realistic. I also don't know if two Defense Grids is sufficient. It might be time to remove Hazoret's Undying Fury. It's so sweet with Ascension but in the rare situation where it's amazing, Reforge is also good enough.
Maybe I'm keeping bad slow hands, but Eldrazi is just the worst. It is just miserable, how do you guys handle it?
Current decklist
// Legacy - Ruby Storm-Pyromancer Ascension
// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
// 1 Creature
1 Guttersnipe
// 2 Enchantment
2 Pyromancer Ascension
// 13 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Commune with Lava
// 14 Land
11 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb
// 18 Sorcery
4 Rite of Flame
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Silent Gravestone
// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Scab-Clan Berserker
// 11 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 2 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Mizzium Mortars
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 2 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Dark Petition
SB: 1 Gamble
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
I haven't played the matchup much, but historically eldrazi is good Vs all of the storm decks. Tes is sometimes faster.
-rob
Being it will likely be sometime next year that I can try to pick up Leds, has a proper substitute been found? I can live with being slightly slower and acts being slightly worse till I can aquire a set.
Would you recommend 2/2 split of desperate ritual and helm of awakening? Or is spirit guide needed?
Do we have to run win cons in the main vs just burning wishing for them?
Thanks.
if i didn't have led's i might try something like this now:
// 60 Maindeck
// 8 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
// 4 Enchantment
4 Pyromancer Ascension
// 16 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Desperate Ritual
// 14 Land
12 Mountain
2 Ancient Tomb
// 19 Sorcery
4 Rite of Flame
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Past in Flames
you probably want a maindeck gamble in a deck like this though. maybe cut 1 desperate ritual or 1 act on impulse, as act becomes a lot worse without LED or a rock.
-rob
I think this is where I'm at right now:
// Main:
2 Abrade
4 Act on Impulse
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Burning Wish
2 Desperate Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Guttersnipe
2 Helm of Awakening
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Lotus Petal
4 Manamorphose
11 Mountain
3 Past in Flames
2 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Rite of Flame
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Seething Song
// Sideboard:
1 By Force
1 Cave-In
2 Defense Grid
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Gamble
1 Grapeshot
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
2 Scab-Clan Berserker
2 Silent Gravestone
1 Tendrils of Agony
For a while I was relying solely on By Force for artifact match-ups but Trinisphere is so punishing and you know they have multiples. I couldn't find slots in the sideboard for Abrade (except for that Hazoret's Undying Fury I was talking about) so I moved Gamble into the board and dropped a Guttersnipe. Storm doesn't need many win-cons and I've seen other lists on here running just the one. I've also had plenty of situations while playing where I really wanted to just Burning Wish for a Seething Song and now I sort of can. Only just started testing this list though.
For Eldrazi, do we just want Blood Moon? I could see Mizzium Mortars getting cut for a single Blood Moon so you could board it in and Wish-Gamble-Blood Moon. Or is that too slow? Bear in mind I haven't played against it at all yet.
That's what I'm doing and I like it. Spirit Guide was just such a bad hit off Act on Impulse but two Helms let you play Ruby for while storming off which is a nice little bonus. I like one win-con in the main and it's Guttersnipe but I've never felt the need to naturally draw into one of the storm cards.
I'm playing LED-less and I don't think I'd go down Act. Yeah, it's not quite as good as if you have LED but I think you still need it. It still plays well with Seething Song and Pyromancer Ascension. Just my feeling on it, it's your deck and you likely know better.
I just won't play it without led anymore, so it's just a guess for me.
-rob
Makes sense. I wouldn't either if I had them.
I'm currently testing 2x Bedlam Reveler and it's impressing me in the few games I've tried with it. I've seen it mentioned a few times in the thread but nothing conclusive. So far it seems worth a couple of slots in the LED-less build but also might play well with LED.
if i didn't have LED's i would consider trying to make more of a pyromancer ascension deck that is BR with some discard. being able to resolve a dark petition with an active pyromancer ascension can do some pretty interesting lines.
even something super simple like ->
DP -> gets DP and lotus petal -> cast dark petition -> gets manamorphose and dark petition -> cast manamorphose (twice), draw some cards -> cast dark petition -> get tendrils or burning wish + some mana.
I'm not really sure where this deck would go, but i really like this kind of approach. dark petition also has synergies with helm of awakening (2 in play makes dark petition free after initial casting).
this wouldn't really fit into mono red obviously, but it does seem like an interesting approach that could protect itself with some discard.
maybe something like this:
4 probe
4 manamorphose
2 thoughtseize
3 cabal therapy
3 burning wish
4 rite of flame
4 dark ritual
4 helm of awakening
4 lotus petal
4 pyromancer ascension
3 dark petition
1 past in flames
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 gamble
17 lands
-rob
If you want to go all-in, Bedlam Reveler is Act on Impulse copies 5-8. Currently trying that with Burst of Speed in the sideboard.
This feels like it would need 3x maindeck Empty, for sure. I'm not sure Burst of Speed is better than Goblin War Strike. If you get a bunch of tokens early (turns 1-2) that is usually enough to get you there. If you are looking to end the game on the spot, you need 20 goblins...and you're back to Goblin War Strike being better as it avoids combat.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
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