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Thread: RGB Driven to Despair Prowess

  1. #1
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    RGB Prowess

    So I’ve been wanting to play a non blue prowess style deck for a while and Driven to Despair gave me the perfect synergistic reason for doing so, as it works in so many different ways with your creature base and heavy discard strategy already. I like discard more than counter spells for prowess as you can stay proactive. Also Driven, can try to keep you up with card advantage vs blue decks.



    Current List

    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Monastery Swiftspear
    4 Soul-scar Mage
    4 Kiln Fiend
    4 Young Pyromancer

    4 Driven//Despair
    3 Thoughtseize
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    2 Abrupt Decay
    4 Lightning Bolt
    1 Claim//Fame

    4 Land Grant

    3 Badlands
    3 Taiga
    1 Bayou
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Wooded Foothills
    2 Verdant Catacombs

    Sideboard (speculative)
    3 Surgical Extraction
    3 Pyroblast
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Null Rod
    2 Pyrokinesis
    2 Price of Progress
    1 Dreadbore
    2 Golgari Charm


    I cut the Manamorphose as they under performed, have added the 4th Driven, and am trying out a Claim to Fame.

    Some card discussion:

    Kiln Fiend vs Tarmogoyf.
    This is a tough call (or I could just be an idiot). Goyf is obviously better in a vacuum but Kiln gets pretty out of control easily, and you don’t need to run any special enablers to give him evasion in here, as both sides of Driven To Despair work really well with him. Goyf also makes you even more graveyard dependent, which I would worry about after board, and I would want some sort artifact or other type to make goyfs bigger in here as under your own power you can only get him to a 4/5 which isn’t super exciting, where as fiend is swing for at least 4 a turn, usually more. This might be one of those things where on paper Fiend seems justifiable but in actual games and vs heavy removal you just want Goyf. One other minor consideration is that you really don’t have much green in here

    Manamorphose
    Not sure this is quite good enough in here as a 4 of, it’s clunkier in practice than you would think. There just isn’t anything else that is “free” for keeping the gas flowing, and there are times when the 2 mana initial cost can be a bit awkward. It’s possible 2-3 is a better number, I just want to keep the cantrips and card drawing high.

    Claim to Fame
    I could see wanting one or two of these in the main, it has a lot of synergy here, but It’s hard to find space main, and it’s not relevant vs a lot of decks.

    Land Grant
    People scoff at this card, but being able to replace lands with free spells in a deck that cares very much about casting spells is not to be under estimated. I’ve run it in other prowess/spell based decks before, and it’s always impressed me. Unlike in belcher you have other lands and discard and probe to not get blown out by counters. The mana base here is similar in size to RUG Delver’s if you take out the wastelands which really don’t help you cast any cards in that list for the most part. We are at the bare minimum for targets, so it’s possible to maybe trim one from the numbers, but I’m starting here.


    I’m looking to run this at an upcoming GP side event, so happy to hear any feedback and suggestions.
    Last edited by ReAnimator; 07-26-2017 at 02:50 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: RGB Driven to Despair Prowess

    Don't forget removal
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  3. #3
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    Re: RGB Driven to Despair Prowess

    I think you do:
    -4 Kiln Fiend
    +4 Tarmogoyf

    -4 Land Grant, -1 Gitaxian Probe
    +2 Fetch
    +3 Oath of Nissa

    -2 Manamorphose
    +2 Ghor-Clan Rampager

    Oath of Nissa is a cantrip and will smooth your opening hands, which you are desperate for in non-blue.
    Ghor-Clan may even want to be a 3 or 4. You want that trample and +4 to close out games. It's uncounterable vs most decks and increases the number of cards Oath hits.

    Note: Oath triggers Prowess. Sorceries need not apply if you can find cards in this vein that just happen to be different card types. You probably want to have Urza's and/or Mishra's baublesds to pump goyf while pumping your dudes. I think looking at Flashback spells is reasonable as well. Oath of Ghouls is also a good 1-of to consider as any non-combo deck that is successfully fending you off is killing your dudes (you have a lot of them), unless it's Topless. Urza's Bauble even has good synergy with Cabal Therapy!
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  4. #4
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    Re: RGB Driven to Despair Prowess

    I like the idea of Oath but 1 mana is a lot more than sometimes zero. Traverse the uvenwald is something to consider too.

    Also Young Pyromancer is the best guy in this list synergy wise, and he doesn't have real prowess only Instants and Sorceries trigger him which is a major factor.

    I love a Ghor clan, and have run it many many times in Modern, but not sure if it's better than something spell based like a berserk or other option for here.



    @mistercakes

    Yeah removal is a factor, i could squeeze in a couple decays or push's main. The bolts and just relying on my own gameplan and having a lot of creatures might not be enough.

  5. #5
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    Re: RGB Driven to Despair Prowess

    So I played in two, four round side events at GP Toronto with slight variations of the list.

    I went 7-1 vs a wide array of decks.
    I think this concept is pretty solid, there is some tweaking to be done for sure, but overall I was very happy with how the deck performed, and it felt like it had some chops and could at least hang and be competitive at a local level.

    Vs a lot of the fair decks my guys were just bigger and faster. Casting 3 mana 2/2’s vs a deck like this with essentially 1 mana ¾’s and removal isn’t going too get you very far, it was very easy to put people on the back foot and in positions they couldn’t climb out of. Legacy doesn’t really have much in the way of agro beat downs, so a lot of the fair decks have a bunch of creatures not made for combat, and low on removal. They just aren’t necessarily set up to handle decks like this, and rightfully so.

    Kiln fiend was very good, and I didn’t want Goyf at all at least in these matches. There were multiple games where I killed on turn 3 and that was all kiln fiend, goyf doesn’t put up those sort of turns despite being more resilient in a lot of situations and better in long games. There is a decent amount of graveyard dependence in here because of DRS, Driven to Despair and Therapy, that going with Goyfs would start making grave hate pretty effective vs me.

    Land Grant was incredible, having land drops count towards your spell count for prowess was amazing.
    I felt like I needed one more target for Grant/Fetches as in a few long games I ran out of targets, but it was mostly fine and never cost me a game. The mana might be a touch too greedy (14 lands greedy? You don’t say!) but it feels close to right.

    Driven to Despair was really decent, even just drawing 2 cards is relevant to keep the gas flowing. Giving Kiln Fiends or very pumped up 1 drops evasion was also great. I want to go up to 4.

    In the first event I ran the posted list but with -2 Manamorphose +2 Abrupt decay main.
    In the second one, I ran the posted list but with -4 Manamorphose +2 Abrupt Decay +2 Night’s Whisper

    I liked Whisper more than I liked Manamorphose, but I would like the 4th Driven more than the second Whisper, not sure if it will remain as a one of. Kolaghans command is an idea, but I’m pretty hesitant to put a 3 mana spell in here. Right now I’m trying out Claim to Fame, but I feel that might be a board card as there are matches where your guys just don’t get killed.

    Sideboard was a bit different too:
    2 Pyrokinesis (better than Covenant, just didn’t think of it earlier)
    3 Pyroblast
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Null Rod
    2 Price of Progress
    1 Dreadbore
    2 Golgari Charm
    3 Surgical Extraction

    Not super happy with charm, but I don’t know if there are better TNN solutions available.


    Here’s a very quick and dirty tournament report. I played a LOT of magic a the GP so it’s all a bit of a blur, so I might have some details wrong, these are more my impressions of how the match felt.

    Event number 1

    Round 1
    Vs Merfolk.

    My friend was piloting this. This is just not a remotely competitive match up. Other than True name you have nothing to fear, they have a bunch of 2/2’s for two and three that can get pumped, you have ¾’s for 1 or possibly bigger and are backed up with removal. Even with a true name there isn’t any equipment to make him big and you can remove their lords that pump him with ease. Post board you get Pyroblasts and Pyrokinesis, for your more dead cards, and they really don’t have much of a chance.
    1-0

    Round 2
    Vs 4 Colour Czeck Pile
    His build has some techy cards in it like a Dack Fayden (which is pretty filthy with a Leovold in play, as you can plus him to make your opponent discard 2).
    Leovold is an issue, but he is also pretty easy to remove, but until you do he can shut off a lot of your cards and really slow you down. As described above this is one of those fair matches where their creatures are just really clunky in comparison, however they are powerful. Also they don’t have a ton of removal, so you should be better ahead on board presence faster, you just have to maintain that advantage early and disrupt them enough to maintain that presence. Post board you get a lot of excellent tools that are hard for them to fight through.
    2-0

    Round 3
    Vs Ad Naus Tendrils
    I knew he was on storm, I’m on the play, and can either Thoughtseize turn one, or get a board presence with a Soulscar Mage, then turn two start disrupting him. I go with the mage, and he kills me turn one. Wah wahhh
    Games 2 and 3 go much more according to plan.
    Game 2 Kiln fiend killed him on turn 3 on the play, I was dead if he got to his third turn. It’s nice to be able to race combo sometimes.
    Game 3 I’m able to get some creatures down after making sure I’m not dead with a probe and kill him while disrupting.
    3-0

    Round 4
    Vs Dead guy Ale
    This was also a friend of mine, we agreed to split and play the match for fun.
    My guys are just bigger and faster. Equipment game one can be a problem, but that’s what the discard is for. Lingering souls is pretty annoying and tough to grind through but other than kiln fiend all my other creatures are pretty good at crashing into spirit tokens, as It takes a lot of them to actually trade with something.
    4-0

    Event 2

    Round 1
    Vs Goblins
    Goblin Lacky is just not a reasonable card vs a deck with 12 ½’s. 4 mana 2/2’s and 3 mana 1/1’s are also sub par. He was running a more LD focused build with Goblin Settlers and such. While my mana is really low, it takes a while for him to get that resource denial going, and I really don’t need much mana to operate.

    Game 2 I get chaliced. But I got a soulscar down and then a kiln fiend. The game ends when I play 3 bolts into a chalice just to pump my team, and he takes a whole bunch of damage.
    1-0

    Round 2
    Vs TES
    After probing me on turn 2 he realizes I can kill him on turn three, he has to go for it, but isn’t sure if he will get there, but he does.
    Game 2 I have to mull, and only have one piece of disruption. I do have a turn 3 kill but he is able to go off on turn 2 again.

    Really close, as we were both racing, I feel like If I had just one more piece of interaction in either game I would have got there.
    1-1

    Round 3
    Vs High Tide
    This deck is so cool, but also my deck is just a nightmare for him. Fast clock that he can’t interact with, backed up with disruption.
    Post board it only gets worse for him as I get to take out dead cards like bolt, and put in pyroblasts and surgicals.
    2-1

    Round 4
    Vs Alluren
    I hadn’t played vs the newer style of alluren decks before. He had Glint-nest Crane and a small equipment package, lots of value dudes, Strix, Shardless all the usual suspects.
    Strixes are a bit of a problem as they are pure value and can trade with even your biggest guys. If they get rolling all their mediocre value creatures can over whelm you, but their creatures are pretty anemic in combat, and take time to roll out.
    Post board, Pyrokinesis and Pyroblast can do a lot of work clearing the way. Also Price of progress gives you a lot of reach as it’s super difficult for them to do a grindy value game against you without making a bunch of land drops.
    Game 2 I crashed in on turn 3 with 2 5/6 swiftspears with trample from Driven, vs his one strix, puts him to 10, and I’d revealed my hand to land grant and he saw that I had a bolt and a POP. He was not really sure what combo of cards could dig him out, of that, and I’m pretty sure the answer was none.
    3-1


    So 7-1 over all, felt like a pretty decent start for this brew, I’m definitely going to keep exploring it, it’s a lot of fun, and for the most part your opponents have no clue what you are doing, which is satisfying.


    Here's some poor quality pics of a current build (Whisper will be replaced by a Driven when i get one). Semi pimped out.





  6. #6

    Re: RGB Driven to Despair Prowess

    Deck looks seeet. Is running a few basics plausible to be a little more Wasteland-and-Moon-proof? Though I guess Blood.Moon wouldn't be wonderful against you to start with...

  7. #7
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    Re: RGB Driven to Despair Prowess

    The card you are missing is berserk. Very easy to swing for 20 on a kiln fiend.
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    Re: RGB Driven to Despair Prowess

    Quote Originally Posted by crowe_1 View Post
    Deck looks seeet. Is running a few basics plausible to be a little more Wasteland-and-Moon-proof? Though I guess Blood.Moon wouldn't be wonderful against you to start with...
    I think the costs outweigh the benefits. I don't think you can run basics, there just isn't room. Even the 3rd Taiga seems bad and clunky i didn't run it at the tournaments. You really don't need much mana to operate, and much like delver you have a reasonable amount of ways to dig for more mana. Also if you already have a board presence, wastelanding you isn't going to buy your opponent much time.

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    Re: RGB Driven to Despair Prowess

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    The card you are missing is berserk. Very easy to swing for 20 on a kiln fiend.

    I've run Berserk Kiln fiend decks in the past, quite a bit. With this iteration of the deck you go more wide for the most part. Without other pump spells Berserk only works with Kiln fiend and not really well with any of your other dudes, which makes it pretty inconsistent and unreliable. If i was to put in some berserks it's hard to justify without another big creature like goyf and some pump. Which i think change the direction of the deck cause you would need to cut Young Pyromancers and such. I've tried it before and it really does lead you to be a different deck.

  10. #10
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    Re: RGB Driven to Despair Prowess

    Well I'm a big kiln fiend fan, so I'm intrigued. What's your current list?

    Edit: Played a couple matches with list in OP. This was honestly a lot better than I thought it was going to be. Claim to fame is really good, might be worth maindecking.

    Edit 2: Grixis delver is an ass matchup, thus this deck is currently unplayable unless you can magically develop an answer to Gurmag angler. Also really think you should consider goyf in the kiln fiend slot, kiln fiend dying to everything feels real bad.
    Last edited by monovfox; 07-26-2017 at 07:29 AM.
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  11. #11

    Re: RGB Driven to Despair Prowess

    As a jank answer, if the deck does go wide you can try Deadly Allure to get past Anglers.
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    Re: RGB Driven to Despair Prowess

    Quote Originally Posted by monovfox View Post
    Well I'm a big kiln fiend fan, so I'm intrigued. What's your current list?

    Edit: Played a couple matches with list in OP. This was honestly a lot better than I thought it was going to be. Claim to fame is really good, might be worth maindecking.

    Edit 2: Grixis delver is an ass matchup, thus this deck is currently unplayable unless you can magically develop an answer to Gurmag angler. Also really think you should consider goyf in the kiln fiend slot, kiln fiend dying to everything feels real bad.

    Current List is the one in the pictures, with -1 Nights Whispers +1 Driven.

    Changes from the OP -4 Manamorphose -1 Fetch +1 Taiga +2 Decay +1 Driven +1 Claim.

    I am running a Claim main deck at the moment.

    As per Angler, you could go with Dreadbore or Terminate in the board. Also bolts are pretty effective if you have a Soul Scar in play. The other option is running something like Black Leyline.

    As for goyf, i've outlined why i don't want him in here, but it certainly is something you could run for sure. Just depends if you want to be less explosive and more grindy. If you feel resilience (depending on grave hate) is better than explosiveness then that is the swap to make for sure. Goyf is better vs the fair decks and worse vs combo.

  13. #13
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    Re: RGB Driven to Despair Prowess

    Soul-Scar Mage + Bolt is also good vs Angler. EDIT: ReAnimator got in just before me!

    I really like the look of this, will buy some Driven to Despair and try it
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    Re: RGB Driven to Despair Prowess

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    Soul-Scar Mage + Bolt is also good vs Angler. EDIT: ReAnimator got in just before me!

    I really like the look of this, will buy some Driven to Despair and try it

    too quick!

    Let me know how it goes, it's a blast to play for sure.

  15. #15
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    Re: RGB Driven to Despair Prowess

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    The card you are missing is berserk. Very easy to swing for 20 on a kiln fiend.
    Seconded.

    You are basically playing a sligh deck, which means you want maximum damage output for each mana. Berserk by itself makes your kiln fiend attack for 8 damage. I wouldn't be opposed to playing Mutagenic Growth either. I think you want to maximize your chances of a turn 2 kill (because racing combo is important.) Mutagenic might play better than Manamorphose.
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  16. #16

    Re: RGB Driven to Despair Prowess

    If you switch to goyf, you could try baubles instead of Manamorphose.

    I'm curious about how well Soul-Scar Mage performs. Goblin Guide seems like it could do work in that slot.

    Raven's Crime might work as a 1 or 2 of.

    You've got enough mountains for Fireblast.

    Something like Become Immense could also work as targeted pump, but it's risky to target your own stuff.

    Kari Zev is pretty good with the 'go wide' concept.

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    Re: RGB Driven to Despair Prowess

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    If you switch to goyf, you could try baubles instead of Manamorphose.

    I'm curious about how well Soul-Scar Mage performs. Goblin Guide seems like it could do work in that slot.

    Raven's Crime might work as a 1 or 2 of.

    You've got enough mountains for Fireblast.

    Something like Become Immense could also work as targeted pump, but it's risky to target your own stuff.

    Kari Zev is pretty good with the 'go wide' concept.

    Well i've cut Manamorphose so getting baubles in probably isn't going to happen. Also Bauble doesn't work with pyromancer.

    Soul-Scar has been fine, not having haste is obviously a huge downgrade from Swiftspear, but the ability to grow has made it more valuable than the haste from Goblin Guide. The nice thing about the 1/2's is that they can get in there vs Leovolds, or Shardless Agents, and even True Names, Guide can't really do that ever. It's not unusual to be casting 2-4 spells on a key turn, and with that in mind Guide really is left lacking.

    Pretty sure i'm not going to add Raven's Crime to the deck with 14 lands and no way to abuse it. It's so far out of scope from what we are trying to accomplish.

    I like the idea of fire blast, but realistically how much better is it than a chain lightning?

    Kari Zev is cool, but the tokens aren't permanent, also they don't get the bonus from Driven. She's also just worse than other 2 drops we are already not playing.


    Thanks for your feedback though!

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    Re: RGB Driven to Despair Prowess

    Has anyone tried Lava Dart in this list?

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    Re: RGB Driven to Despair Prowess

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    Re: RGB Driven to Despair Prowess

    I think Apostles blessing isn't what we need so much. Discard helps protect our creatures, and Driven and Removal help our guys punch through. If we just want it for grinding through removal, is Claim to Fame not better?


    Lava dart is a sick throw back. For sure you couldn't run it main deck, and i don't know if it would do enough work in the board especially compared to something like pyrokinesis. For sure something to keep in mind. The real question is, does it do more work than other options for board slots. VS something like D&T it has to compete with Dread of Night, and Pyrokinesis, and Golgari Charm.

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