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Thread: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

  1. #381
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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    Their scariest sb plan is Boseiju + Rite of Consumption. That one I'm not quite sure what to do vs yet, though I've not faced it myself, might need a plan if it picks up.
    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
    Quote Originally Posted by Von View Post
    Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?

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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    Both those matchups are tough. Infect is slightly favoured vs us I'd say, but you must have a pretty good understanding of how to play vs the deck too to stand a chance, they'll punish a tiny misstep heavily. Food Chain feels a bit harder than Infect for me. They threaten a combo plus have some insane grinding power. Our route to victory usually involves Jace, though Search is a great addition for the matchup, if it flips to get under a Decay you're probably in decent shape. After Jace, blasts are our best cards. How to play vs them really depends on how you play generally, and how you sb. How do you find you usually lose the matchup?
    For some time before Top was banned I played Food Chain and the most important card was always Manipulate Fate: If you managed to resolve it you could grind hard and always threaten combo. Therefore I would at times not cantrip blindly T1 to keep up Blasts: As Whitefaces said Blasts really are your lifeline.
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  3. #383
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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by hofzge View Post
    For some time before Top was banned I played Food Chain and the most important card was always Manipulate Fate: If you managed to resolve it you could grind hard and always threaten combo. Therefore I would at times not cantrip blindly T1 to keep up Blasts: As Whitefaces said Blasts really are your lifeline.
    I totally agree. I've played a fair bit of Food Chain myself too and I remember not playing it into open mana usually, or set up up a turn with two copies to get it through. I even tried bringing in Flusters as Miracles just for it, but that was a bit too narrow I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Misdirection
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  4. #384
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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    I've gone off UA completely, CJ has consistently done the job. It's a clunker and not always the most pretty, but there was just too many situations where UA didn't do what I wanted for me to justify it. I have 1 CJ md and 1 more in the sb, pretty happy with them.
    Thanks for the reply Whitefaces, really appreciate it. What does your IRL sideboard look like at the moment? iirc your main is currently something like 3 CB, 1 CS, 2 SfA, 1 CJ?

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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by cdnza View Post
    Thanks for the reply Whitefaces, really appreciate it. What does your IRL sideboard look like at the moment? iirc your main is currently something like 3 CB, 1 CS, 2 SfA, 1 CJ?
    Close! I'm running 2 CS still. This is my list atm with some bonus sb tables attached - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets..._4w/edit#gid=0

    You can tinker with a bunch of the numbers, depends what you're expecting to face, I feel like it is pretty well rounded to fight most things except Cloudpost decks. The plan there is just Mentor, sometimes gets it.

    There are a few slots in it that I think can be changed up (some I don't have in my deck, you'll have to read between the lines):

    3rd CB - great vs the top tier decks and combo but worse vs 'stuff'
    3rd Predict - great vs a midrange/control heavy meta, OK vs Delver and slow combo, bad vs fast combo. I also think Search has filled some of this cards role, less important with entreat too.
    2nd Counterspell - poor vs Delver, great vs midrange/control and slow combo, OK vs fast combo
    4th Terminus - this is something I'm not a fan of cutting, but others have had success with 3 Terminus 1 Supreme Verdict - OK vs delver and midrange/control (mirror post sb mostly), poor vs dnt/elves etc
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Super nice of you to share that SB guide with us! Looks like I need to pick up a third Flusterstorm...

    Something that intrigues me is you seem to be boarding in the fourth Snapcaster Mage in every matchup. Have any words of wisdom on this topic?

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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by cdnza View Post
    Super nice of you to share that SB guide with us! Looks like I need to pick up a third Flusterstorm...

    Something that intrigues me is you seem to be boarding in the fourth Snapcaster Mage in every matchup. Have any words of wisdom on this topic?
    Worth it, I think the third Fluster is pretty crucial for the deck.

    Yeah sure, it gets asked about a lot. It's because after boarding the deck has more spells to flashback basically, as simple as that sounds. It's very weird to have a sb card that's already in the maindeck and also comes in vs everything, but since vs every match we're bringing in more high impact spells its worth goes up. In G1 we don't have as many good spells to flash back typically, still enough to play 3, but more than that can feel clunky with diminishing returns. As long as the sb isn't scattered with 1-ofs, it's essentially a 4th Blast, 3rd Disenchant, 4th Surgical etc.

    Doesn't mean it's always correct to play a snapcaster in the sb though. My sb has a lot of spells so it becomes better, if you're playing stuff like hatebears (priest, canonist, clique), EE, B2B/Moon and things like that then it becomes worse.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  8. #388
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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Great explanation, thanks again! Going to try to play with a list very similar to yours (maybe +/- Predict/Counterspell) next week. Should be interesting since the last time I was playing the deck it was when we were all fooling around with Soothsaying...

    Going to have to re-read ItIsUnfair's big rant doc in preparation I think!

  9. #389

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by FGCmtg View Post
    Thoughtseize effects in Miracles? Or from our opponents? Is this supposed to be in the pile thread? ;)
    It was indeed. My apologies..

    I abandoned Miracles after the Top ban, and was homeless for a long time. Have since picked up Pile, but am now eyeing Miracles again :)

    I find it very hard to believe CB is viable without top. My inclanation would be to jam more straight up Counterspells (and Snaps for the CA), but I can see that people are having success with CB still. I don't get it, but I should probably just test it and see...

  10. #390

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Don't think Misdirection is the SB solution you would want against Turbo Depths. Turbo Depth is packed with Duress and Thoughtseize. As long as you're not pressuring Depth player with Mentor, they will sculpt their hand and start their combo sequence with a discard. Misdirection doesn't interact well against those discard spells.

    I would argue that Clique is the answer to most of these combo match-ups, as in Food Chain and Turbo Depths. Clique actually sends Griffin into the grave, disrupts combo pieces like Rites and Food Chain. Worst case scenario, it can be served as an emergency block for the 20/20 (yes, you could still die to removal or crop rotation).

  11. #391

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    What about playing karakas as a one-off?
    This deck plays so many cantrips that it should be easy to find.

    I know that Turbo depths can set a needle on karakas but a lot of the old miracle lists played at least one karakas.
    Why isn't it played, nowadays? Also what happened to the legend list of Joe lossett?

    Karakas could help against S&S, Reanimator and depths.

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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Deckerator View Post
    What about playing karakas as a one-off?
    This deck plays so many cantrips that it should be easy to find.

    I know that Turbo depths can set a needle on karakas but a lot of the old miracle lists played at least one karakas.
    Why isn't it played, nowadays? Also what happened to the legend list of Joe lossett?

    Karakas could help against S&S, Reanimator and depths.

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    Karakas generally doesn't do enough in the current builds to warrant playing. SnS/Reanimator want to have Griselbrand in play, Karakas doesn't normally beat Griselbrand. The more popular decks in the format (Delver) see Karakas as a wasteable plains, and cutting blue sources in the deck is risky/unadvisable.

    Legends Miracles died with top - essentially you needed the top to lock your opponent out and give you consistency so you could play a bunch of clunky 3 and 4 drops, which you can't really afford to do any more.

    Depths is a good matchup, which we can beat with swords, snapcaster and jace, with flusters post board - karakas is too much of a risk in other matchups to warrant having the card again.

    This is why the card doesn't see play any more (I think it's really sweet though, v cool card.. just yeah.. risky in the metagame against the closer matchups)

  13. #393
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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by twndomn View Post
    Don't think Misdirection is the SB solution you would want against Turbo Depths. Turbo Depth is packed with Duress and Thoughtseize. As long as you're not pressuring Depth player with Mentor, they will sculpt their hand and start their combo sequence with a discard. Misdirection doesn't interact well against those discard spells.

    I would argue that Clique is the answer to most of these combo match-ups, as in Food Chain and Turbo Depths. Clique actually sends Griffin into the grave, disrupts combo pieces like Rites and Food Chain. Worst case scenario, it can be served as an emergency block for the 20/20 (yes, you could still die to removal or crop rotation).
    Well, Misdirection isn't a bad card against Thoughtseize. It trades 2 for 2 (Thoughtseize and their worst non-land card for Misdirection and your worst blue card) while making them reveal their hand, pay B and lose 2 life. Not amazing but you could do worse. Of course, it's sadly completely ineffective against Duress since it only targets opponents.

  14. #394

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by FGCmtg View Post
    Karakas generally doesn't do enough in the current builds to warrant playing. SnS/Reanimator want to have Griselbrand in play, Karakas doesn't normally beat Griselbrand. The more popular decks in the format (Delver) see Karakas as a wasteable plains, and cutting blue sources in the deck is risky/unadvisable.

    Legends Miracles died with top - essentially you needed the top to lock your opponent out and give you consistency so you could play a bunch of clunky 3 and 4 drops, which you can't really afford to do any more.

    Depths is a good matchup, which we can beat with swords, snapcaster and jace, with flusters post board - karakas is too much of a risk in other matchups to warrant having the card again.

    This is why the card doesn't see play any more (I think it's really sweet though, v cool card.. just yeah.. risky in the metagame against the closer matchups)
    This kind of post is misleading.

    First of all, why give the impression that you must run Legendary creatures in Miracles if you decide to run a Karakas? Running a Karakas does not automatically falls into a conclusion of Legend Miracles.

    Second, how did you draw the conclusion that Karakas doesn't normally beat Griselbrand? I question your methodology and assessment, especially you wrote a blanket statement without context. Say Griselbrand in Sneak and Show, I can see how a resolved Griselbrand basically ends the game. However, I have kept a hand of 5 lands and 2 spells, with Karakas as one of the lands and defeat BR Reanimator, in multiple occasions. I would argue the opposite. If you start the game against BR Reanimator and they reveal a Chancellor of the Annex, Karakas might be a better way to interact than Surgical, assuming they did not discard and dig Annex out of grave, went for land petal entomb for Griselbrand, reanimate instead.

    Third, thinking StP alone will carry you to victory against Turbo Depths is feeding into a false sense of security. sylvan safekeeper and crop rotate into Sejiri Steppe are plenty of ways to get around StP. Gaining Flusterstorm post board is simply not enough. StP and Fluster don't even interact against Boseiju + Rites. From my experience, do everything you can to hold off the first 20/20 attempt, which might require you to fight off discard. If Depth player is slow off the gate, apply pressure even at the cost of taking a risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Well, Misdirection isn't a bad card against Thoughtseize. It trades 2 for 2 (Thoughtseize and their worst non-land card for Misdirection and your worst blue card) while making them reveal their hand, pay B and lose 2 life. Not amazing but you could do worse. Of course, it's sadly completely ineffective against Duress since it only targets opponents.
    Say I'm BR Reanimator player, I thoughtseize you and you misdirect it back to me, I reveal my hand and choose to discard Griselbrand, what did the Misdirection accomplish? Rather, I'm not saying you should SB-in Misdirection against BR Reanimator, I'm saying blanket statement without context is not helpful.

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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by twndomn View Post
    This kind of post is misleading.

    First of all, why give the impression that you must run Legendary creatures in Miracles if you decide to run a Karakas? Running a Karakas does not automatically falls into a conclusion of Legend Miracles.

    Second, how did you draw the conclusion that Karakas doesn't normally beat Griselbrand? I question your methodology and assessment, especially you wrote a blanket statement without context. Say Griselbrand in Sneak and Show, I can see how a resolved Griselbrand basically ends the game. However, I have kept a hand of 5 lands and 2 spells, with Karakas as one of the lands and defeat BR Reanimator, in multiple occasions. I would argue the opposite. If you start the game against BR Reanimator and they reveal a Chancellor of the Annex, Karakas might be a better way to interact than Surgical, assuming they did not discard and dig Annex out of grave, went for land petal entomb for Griselbrand, reanimate instead.

    Third, thinking StP alone will carry you to victory against Turbo Depths is feeding into a false sense of security. sylvan safekeeper and crop rotate into Sejiri Steppe are plenty of ways to get around StP. Gaining Flusterstorm post board is simply not enough. StP and Fluster don't even interact against Boseiju + Rites. From my experience, do everything you can to hold off the first 20/20 attempt, which might require you to fight off discard. If Depth player is slow off the gate, apply pressure even at the cost of taking a risk.



    Say I'm BR Reanimator player, I thoughtseize you and you misdirect it back to me, I reveal my hand and choose to discard Griselbrand, what did the Misdirection accomplish? Rather, I'm not saying you should SB-in Misdirection against BR Reanimator, I'm saying blanket statement without context is not helpful.
    Sorry, I thought some of these things would be obvious.

    At no point did I say you had to run legendary creatures to make Karakas good - but the initial post wanted to know why 'Legends Miracles' is not being played any longer, and I gave my response to that accordingly.

    Karakas has always done a poor job at beating Griselbrand, essentially any deck looking to put Griselbrand into play will have some other end-game threat be it Emrakul, or Sire of Insanity/Tidespout Tyrant or something else. Once your opponent has drawn 14 cards, put another Griselbrand into play plus the other threat, you essentially died to the first Griselbrand even if you bounced it. It's a rare occasion on which you just Karakas their demon and they don't draw cards, or they draw cards and can't utilise them - their whole deck is designed to cheat huge threats into play and with 14 extra cards, you're dead more often than not.

    Regarding turbo depths, you can beat all of those situations by not playing like an ape. Obviously, you can lose any matchup where you draw poorly or you get nutdrawn, but on average you can beat all of those situations with an average hand from a standard Miracles list. I'm not saying the matchup is a bye, but simply discussing the high variance edge cases isn't useful.

    I hope this was more insightful for you.

  16. #396

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by FGCmtg View Post
    Karakas has always done a poor job at beating Griselbrand, essentially any deck looking to put Griselbrand into play will have some other end-game threat be it Emrakul, or Sire of Insanity/Tidespout Tyrant or something else. Once your opponent has drawn 14 cards, put another Griselbrand into play plus the other threat, you essentially died to the first Griselbrand even if you bounced it.
    Now you're just exaggerating using bad math. 20 - 8 from reanimate on Griselbrand - 14 life to draw 14 cards, that's not even valid. Griselbrand coming from Sneak and Show versus coming from BR Reanimator/Griselbrand-storm (tin-fin) are all different contexts. They happen at different turns and each archetype will draw different set of 7 cards per activation. If you are going to lump them all together, and then jump to the conclusion that Karakas will not be helpful against any of the archetypes, that's your personal blanket opinion.

    Removed the flamier parts of this post. Keep it cool, bruh. -zilla

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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by twndomn View Post
    Now you're just exaggerating using bad math. 20 - 8 from reanimate on Griselbrand - 14 life to draw 14 cards, that's not even valid. Griselbrand coming from Sneak and Show versus coming from BR Reanimator/Griselbrand-storm (tin-fin) are all different contexts. They happen at different turns and each archetype will draw different set of 7 cards per activation. If you are going to lump them all together, and then jump to the conclusion that Karakas will not be helpful against any of the archetypes, that's your personal blanket opinion.
    How many Karakas do you recommend running twndomn?
    Last edited by Jander78; 02-14-2018 at 12:40 PM.

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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by twndomn View Post
    Now you're just exaggerating using bad math. 20 - 8 from reanimate on Griselbrand - 14 life to draw 14 cards, that's not even valid. Griselbrand coming from Sneak and Show versus coming from BR Reanimator/Griselbrand-storm (tin-fin) are all different contexts. They happen at different turns and each archetype will draw different set of 7 cards per activation. If you are going to lump them all together, and then jump to the conclusion that Karakas will not be helpful against any of the archetypes, that's your personal blanket opinion, most likely a result from sub-optimal game-play. How would any of your assessments be considered an insight?
    I'm not sure what you're hoping to achieve with your approach to this discussion. Randomly throwing around accusations of sub-optimal game play don't really get us anywhere, generally it is best to assume a reasonable degree of intelligence/ability in the other person during a conversation like this otherwise there is no point in replying at all from your perspective other than self-indulgence.

    Nobody playing miracles should be losing to the 7/7 lifelink flier part of Griselbrand, the part that kills you is Yawgmoth's Bargain which happens to be attached to it. Obviously the 14 life thing I was discussing is only sometimes, 7 cards is often enough to kill us, 14 happens plenty, yes they die when they are on zero life *claps*.

    Karakas is 'helpful' in that the 7/7 goes back into their hand of now approx. 10 cards which will put Sneak Attack/Omniscience/Tidespout Tyrant + Sire + Gris into play, and in the case of Tin Fins, reanimates Gris with haste again and kills you with Tendrils/Brutality/Emrakul. Repeat - you never die to a big lifelink flier, so karakas is of minimal utility compared to the cost it incurs by having it in your starting 60, and it is of lower impact than other sideboard cards you could play.

    If nobody played Wasteland or Blood Moon, and everyone played Griselbrand decks, then yes, Karakas would be better enough than plains to include as it has text where plains doesn't. That isn't the world we live in, so I don't play the card.

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  19. #399

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    seems the trend lately is moving away from mainboard Monastery Mentor to Entreat the Angels. While i've generally favored Monastery Mentor in the main as a crutch, is 3 Jace and 1 Entreat the Angels really enough to put away game 1's? It seems like it would be extremely difficult to put a game away even if you seem to have control of it without some way to lock the game down since Top + Counterbalance doesn't exist anymore and no decks are playing things like Ensnaring Bridge to lock the board down.

    The most ideal way to win game 1 I can think of is to brainstorm Entreat the Angels to the top and then set up Force of Will to be revealed to Counterbalance when you go to miracle the card. Is this the approach to closing out games? or are there more factors involved such as intentionally running the clock down low in game 1, or online players attempting to time out the miracles players?

    In my experience without any sort of a lock down mechanism, it is not unreasonable for an opponent to reclaim the board even in the late stages of the game while you're still digging for a way to actually close out the game.

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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by drocker23 View Post
    seems the trend lately is moving away from mainboard Monastery Mentor to Entreat the Angels. While i've generally favored Monastery Mentor in the main as a crutch, is 3 Jace and 1 Entreat the Angels really enough to put away game 1's? It seems like it would be extremely difficult to put a game away even if you seem to have control of it without some way to lock the game down since Top + Counterbalance doesn't exist anymore and no decks are playing things like Ensnaring Bridge to lock the board down.

    The most ideal way to win game 1 I can think of is to brainstorm Entreat the Angels to the top and then set up Force of Will to be revealed to Counterbalance when you go to miracle the card. Is this the approach to closing out games? or are there more factors involved such as intentionally running the clock down low in game 1, or online players attempting to time out the miracles players?

    In my experience without any sort of a lock down mechanism, it is not unreasonable for an opponent to reclaim the board even in the late stages of the game while you're still digging for a way to actually close out the game.
    Entreat and 3 JTMS is plenty to kill your opponent. A reasonable amount of the time you can win with a pair of Snapcasters protected by Counterbalance. Counterbalance is still enough to lock your opponent out of most spells in the late game, even without Top.

    I'd say the primary win condition is JTMS, with Entreat being your 'Jace on 13' (credit to WhiteFaces for this analogy) when you don't have enough cards to ultimate your opponent and not deck out, or if there's some other time sensitive issue in the game. The deck does require you to play quickly - you can't sit considering every Ponder or Portent for longer than a couple of seconds - you need to be aware of what your plan is at all points, so that you know when you need to dig aggressively for Entreat as early as is safe to do so.

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