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Thread: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

  1. #361
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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by jubeininja69 View Post
    ^can you go over the turbo depths matchup? how did you lose to it?

    why the single mountain?

    I know there is a guy on here who plays bg depths and is a cfb local. i think his name is solnox. did you play him?
    Sure! Game 1 I mulled to 5 and then forgot to scry, but I had 2 BS, swords, terminus, land and kept finding good interactive spells and lands. Jace and mentor wrapped things up. My opponent had a window to kill me but made strange choices with his discard spells. The turn mentor killed I "stormed" a bunch with Swords/countering my own guys/spells for the win. Game 2 I kept a 4 lander with snap and cantrips and ended up just cantripping into more cantrips before dying without much fight. Game 3 was much closer, but he had Bobs and library which let him get a million cards and I punted a bit and waited too long to cast a mentor. I think this game was winnable if I played differently.

    Overall, Turbo depths had been a pretty easy matchup for me, but he had like 2-3 safekeepers, bobs and librarys which were very good obviously.

    I am not sure if it was solnox.

    The single mountain is because I like to bring in Red blast against most delver decks, and play red cards against waste/port decks like D&T. One of the main advantages of playing mentors, no entreats is you only need 1 basic plains so you can afford to run a mountain. I have run the mountain in the SB before, but having just 1 "colorless land" MD isn't too bad.

  2. #362
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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by mike1987 View Post
    Thanks FGC for providing the stock list! i have been thinking of going back to miracles at my LGS this week as well but that place is flooded with chalices. From big eldrazi, white palace jailer chalice concoction to merfolk. Do you think playing 1 EE in the main is good to combat chalice heavy decks? or should I just play 2 council's judgement in the main.

    With only 3 jaces and 1 entreat, do you guys have a problem with ending the game on time? I have always been trying to speed up my play without compromising for errors.
    Hey - no problem. If your metagame is full of tribal/chalice stuff, for sure, EE is where you want to be. Generally in an open metagame, I wouldn't expect this to be the case so I haven't played EE in a while. I'd recommend going up to three mentor side, as that card is the most flexible way of beating those decks. The CJ in the main is primarily there as an out to Jace preboard, but you could switch the CJ sideboard for an EE.

    Jace/Entreat have been fine to end the game, Search digs for your wincons really well.

  3. #363

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    I also prefer the Mentor Version of miracles.

    My version looks like the following (still space for a one off e.g. EE, CJ, Flusterstorm):

    Lands: 20

    3x Snapcaster Mage
    3x Monastery Mentor

    4x Brainstorm
    4x Ponder
    4x Portent
    4x Swords to Plowshares
    2x Counterspell
    2x Predict
    2x Search for Azcanta
    2x Unexpectedly Absent
    2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    4x Force of Will
    3x Terminus

    I am not sure if Counterbalance is still worth playing in the post ban version. I had the feeling that i wanna tap out to early and then it can produce to many random card reveal situations.
    What are your opinions on Counterbalance because i still see it in many lists?
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  4. #364
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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Deckerator View Post
    I also prefer the Mentor Version of miracles.

    My version looks like the following (still space for a one off e.g. EE, CJ, Flusterstorm):

    Lands: 20

    3x Snapcaster Mage
    3x Monastery Mentor

    4x Brainstorm
    4x Ponder
    4x Portent
    4x Swords to Plowshares
    2x Counterspell
    2x Predict
    2x Search for Azcanta
    2x Unexpectedly Absent
    2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    4x Force of Will
    3x Terminus

    I am not sure if Counterbalance is still worth playing in the post ban version. I had the feeling that i wanna tap out to early and then it can produce to many random card reveal situations.
    What are your opinions on Counterbalance because i still see it in many lists?
    Counterbalance is very important in my opinion - I played the lists before search/counterbalance a lot, and they lacked a threat that your opponent had to respect as such. Counterbalance only needs to catch one spell to pay for itself, after that it should accrue value over time with your cantrips/snapcasters/jaces. It makes your combo matchups significantly better, and lets you lock the game up against delver decks to stop you getting burnt out. It's a very different card to what it was before with top, it's more of a long term value piece than a lock out.

    Mentor vs entreat main is a less important issue and more comes down to playstyle - I like the mentor post board style of play as a tool to fight difficult to interact with decks or to pressure people after they've taken out their removal. Entreat lets you play the long grindy control game with an ultimate endgame that goes over all the aggro and midrange decks in the format, where mentor (or even gideon) would just die. (I've played both wincons a lot main post ban, this is just where I like to be). I will say, I wouldn't play main deck mentor without counterbalance as a way to protect it against removal, which largely won't be boarded out if you kill them with mentor g1. You're also encouraged to play flusters to protect mentor, this changes the deck significantly - with entreat your wincon takes one slot main deck and lets you dedicate yourself to the late game, which is just a powerful position to be in against a lot of decks.

  5. #365

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by TheArchitect View Post
    Sure! Game 1 I mulled to 5 and then forgot to scry, but I had 2 BS, swords, terminus, land and kept finding good interactive spells and lands. Jace and mentor wrapped things up. My opponent had a window to kill me but made strange choices with his discard spells. The turn mentor killed I "stormed" a bunch with Swords/countering my own guys/spells for the win. Game 2 I kept a 4 lander with snap and cantrips and ended up just cantripping into more cantrips before dying without much fight. Game 3 was much closer, but he had Bobs and library which let him get a million cards and I punted a bit and waited too long to cast a mentor. I think this game was winnable if I played differently.

    Overall, Turbo depths had been a pretty easy matchup for me, but he had like 2-3 safekeepers, bobs and librarys which were very good obviously.

    I am not sure if it was solnox.

    The single mountain is because I like to bring in Red blast against most delver decks, and play red cards against waste/port decks like D&T. One of the main advantages of playing mentors, no entreats is you only need 1 basic plains so you can afford to run a mountain. I have run the mountain in the SB before, but having just 1 "colorless land" MD isn't too bad.
    It wasn’t solnox, although he was in the top 8 along with me as well. I was the lands player who drew in at first seed into round 7.

    Your lack of paper magic does show, in the few times I walked by I definitely saw you miss at least two Mentor triggers. Interesting list, congrats on the finish.

  6. #366

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by TheArchitect View Post
    I took 3rd at a 115ish person 4k at Channel Fireball today!
    Congrats to TheArchitect! (dance~)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deckerator View Post

    I am not sure if Counterbalance is still worth playing in the post ban version. I had the feeling that i wanna tap out to early and then it can produce to many random card reveal situations.
    What are your opinions on Counterbalance because i still see it in many lists?
    It's not an arbitrary decision for the community to arrive at running 2 CB, it's the result of large amount of testing done ever since post Top.

    The role of Mentor
    The issue here is the card slots when you have Mentor SB. If you MD Mentors, then you have 2 empty SB slots, in which you would probably put more combo hate in those (Mentor gives you advantages against all fair MUs). Now, if you have Mentor SB, does this mean that you would MD your combo hate? From the lists I have seen, the answer is no. This new interesting approach here is that there is no golden rule suggesting you need to run 3 Jace. I am willing to MD more Mentor(s) and MD -1 Jace as an experiment.

    The MU against Turbo Depth
    http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=118561
    This looks like the de facto list with Rite of Consumption. Notice how this version no longer runs Into the North.

    It is entirely possible for us to just jam Mentor early, hoping Depth player has a discard heavy hand but not the combo pieces. If you play the long game, Depth player would assemble a hand of discard and combo pieces (maybe with safekeeper) to try to win in 1 shot, starting from our EoT. More Needle helps, there might be better tech out there.

  7. #367
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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    About cb, it's an all star, I never play less than 3. I feel naked without it against storm, Delver etc.

  8. #368

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Thank you for all the replies.
    I add 2x Counterbalance to the deck, didn't know that Counterbalance is still such and important card and cut one Portent for a Flusterstorm.

    My playstyle is more for the Mentor version (but with only 3x Mentor) because i love to play this card
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  9. #369

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Lately there has been a trend to play more Thoughtseize effects. Can someone give a reasoning for that? I guess the aim is to get both players into top decking mode more reliably? Is that a viable strategy against heavier decks with a higher density of late game bombs?

    Has the metagame adjusted to be more resilient to Hymns?

  10. #370
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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by ozimek View Post
    Lately there has been a trend to play more Thoughtseize effects. Can someone give a reasoning for that? I guess the aim is to get both players into top decking mode more reliably? Is that a viable strategy against heavier decks with a higher density of late game bombs?

    Has the metagame adjusted to be more resilient to Hymns?
    Thoughtseize effects in Miracles? Or from our opponents? Is this supposed to be in the pile thread? ;)

  11. #371

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    For what is null rod in the sideboards?
    As i understand its for DT, Storm and now also men of steel
    since it counter
    -led
    -aether vial
    -steel overseer.

    Are there even more Applications ?

    And would you even board it in vs DT or Storm.

    For example isnt it to slow for storm?
    And does it disrupt Dt enough by making them play critters instead of locking us out + creatures?

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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Magicmarvin View Post
    For what is null rod in the sideboards?
    As i understand its for DT, Storm and now also men of steel
    since it counter
    -led
    -aether vial
    -steel overseer.

    Are there even more Applications ?

    And would you even board it in vs DT or Storm.

    For example isnt it to slow for storm?
    And does it disrupt Dt enough by making them play critters instead of locking us out + creatures?
    Hey - yeah the card is/was played as a flex slot for DnT, Storm and Eldrazi Post decks (with grim monolith/voltaic key). Now Men of Steel is a deck so yeah it's good there too. The card is awesome vs DnT as two of their best cards, Aether Vial and Sword of Fire and Ice, both get shut off by the card. It essentially just buys you 5-6 turns until they can flickerwisp + equip or something, by which point you should be firmly in control.

    I haven't played the card in a couple of months, it's a pretty niche card mostly.

  13. #373
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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Magicmarvin View Post
    (Nullrod)
    For example isnt it to slow for storm?
    Not at all. It's most likely that the game goes into a grind situation where they try to overthrow you in mid-/lategame with discard, their own counters and ultimately having more mana, e.g. by provoking you to counter enough mana/tutors to kill you with natural tendrils or by casting Past in Flames multiple times. Especially for the latter one Null Rod is really good for you as it cuts them off their artifact mana which is the common source for {R} in a combo turn with PiF or BW. It's also another valuable Discard/Removal which isn't your CB.

  14. #374

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Sigh~, Turbo Depths, annoying af.

    game 1:
    Depths player with 4 cards in hand, cast Crop Rotation, no mox, no additional green source in play.
    me: counter it.
    Depths player: Elvish Spirit Guide, cast Crop Rotation again.
    me: I hate my life, no way I would suspect that's his hand

    game 2:
    Depths player: puts down Boseiju
    me: #$@#, need to find Blood Moon/From the Ashes ASAP.
    Next turn
    Depths player: make 20/20
    me: no stifle
    Depths player: Cast Rites of Consumption, sac 20/20 via Boseiju mana.
    me: I wish I had Clique SB.

  15. #375

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by twndomn View Post
    Sigh~, Turbo Depths, annoying af.

    game 1:
    Depths player with 4 cards in hand, cast Crop Rotation, no mox, no additional green source in play.
    me: counter it.
    Depths player: Elvish Spirit Guide, cast Crop Rotation again.
    me: I hate my life, no way I would suspect that's his hand

    game 2:
    Depths player: puts down Boseiju
    me: #$@#, need to find Blood Moon/From the Ashes ASAP.
    Next turn
    Depths player: make 20/20
    me: no stifle
    Depths player: Cast Rites of Consumption, sac 20/20 via Boseiju mana.
    me: I wish I had Clique SB.


    This is how i've been feeling in the Infect and Food Chain matchups. Don't have turbo depths at my local meta but I seriously cannot catch a break vs infect or food chain. Infect just overwhelms my answers, and food chain is literally impossible to fully disrupt, and just grinds me out of the game.

  16. #376
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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Haven't played magic in about 4 months, decide to go to a small weekly last night. Decide for some reason to play a nonblue deck. Forgot how miserable that is. Going to come back to Miracles for next week.

    Interested to hear where the seasoned veterans have landed on the mainboard UA/CJ slot. If you're going to play one maindeck, which do you prefer and why? I've seen lists from MODO that play either (or even one of each) but I'm super behind on the meta after the last 4 months.

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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by TheArchitect View Post
    From the ashes is not a card I feel strongly about and could be something else. I would like something that helps the Depths/lands matchup though.
    Blood Sun? Hurts yourself by shutting off fetchlands (like Blood Moon does), but it shuts down their gameplan, cantrips, and I believe it doesn't give them a 20/20 if they destroy it unlike Blood Moon (not sure about this last point?).
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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Blood Sun and Blood Moon both cause a Dark Depths to enter the battlefield with 0 counters; it will become Marit Lage the Moon / Sun leaves play.

    I don't know I about Blood Sun vs Moon. Without top, we do a lot less with random colorless mana than before, but fetches doing nothing can be a problem. Blood Sun does little against the generic greedy mana base since duals still do their thing. For what its worth, I think Back to Basics or From the Ashes are much better non basic hate right now vs the field, but Blood Moon is likely the best place to be vs Turbo Depths.

  19. #379

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    I dont think that a card like blood moon is a good answer to turbo depths since cards like abrupt decay just become an uncounterable marit lage.

  20. #380
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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuuri117 View Post
    This is how i've been feeling in the Infect and Food Chain matchups. Don't have turbo depths at my local meta but I seriously cannot catch a break vs infect or food chain. Infect just overwhelms my answers, and food chain is literally impossible to fully disrupt, and just grinds me out of the game.
    Both those matchups are tough. Infect is slightly favoured vs us I'd say, but you must have a pretty good understanding of how to play vs the deck too to stand a chance, they'll punish a tiny misstep heavily. Food Chain feels a bit harder than Infect for me. They threaten a combo plus have some insane grinding power. Our route to victory usually involves Jace, though Search is a great addition for the matchup, if it flips to get under a Decay you're probably in decent shape. After Jace, blasts are our best cards. How to play vs them really depends on how you play generally, and how you sb. How do you find you usually lose the matchup?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdnza View Post
    Haven't played magic in about 4 months, decide to go to a small weekly last night. Decide for some reason to play a nonblue deck. Forgot how miserable that is. Going to come back to Miracles for next week.

    Interested to hear where the seasoned veterans have landed on the mainboard UA/CJ slot. If you're going to play one maindeck, which do you prefer and why? I've seen lists from MODO that play either (or even one of each) but I'm super behind on the meta after the last 4 months.
    I've gone off UA completely, CJ has consistently done the job. It's a clunker and not always the most pretty, but there was just too many situations where UA didn't do what I wanted for me to justify it. I have 1 CJ md and 1 more in the sb, pretty happy with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by phg22 View Post
    Blood Sun and Blood Moon both cause a Dark Depths to enter the battlefield with 0 counters; it will become Marit Lage the Moon / Sun leaves play.

    I don't know I about Blood Sun vs Moon. Without top, we do a lot less with random colorless mana than before, but fetches doing nothing can be a problem. Blood Sun does little against the generic greedy mana base since duals still do their thing. For what its worth, I think Back to Basics or From the Ashes are much better non basic hate right now vs the field, but Blood Moon is likely the best place to be vs Turbo Depths.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magicmarvin View Post
    I dont think that a card like blood moon is a good answer to turbo depths since cards like abrupt decay just become an uncounterable marit lage.
    I agree with phg22 and Magicmarvin, I don't like Blood Moon and especially Blood Sun in our deck. Depths is a pretty good matchup. They've been sideboarding some more nasty stuff than usual recently, like Safekeepers, more Sylvans etc but we get get through them. I've been leaving in 3 copies of Terminus now to respect Safekeeper. Their scariest sb plan is Boseiju + Rite of Consumption. That one I'm not quite sure what to do vs yet, though I've not faced it myself, might need a plan if it picks up.
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