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Thread: [Primer] UWx Miracle Control

  1. #41

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    On the subject of Monastery Mentor: This is my theory-crafting, and I'm not the best player, so take it for what it's worth.

    From a deckbuilding perspective, compared to some of the recent Entreat builds, a deck with 3 Mentors is generally sacrificing one Counterspell + one Terminus. Cutting a Terminus makes some sense, as you don't want to sweep away your Mentor and the Monk tokens do a decent job of creating board stalls in some situations, acting like a pseudo Moat. So you're down a piece of countermagic in the main, but in the sideboard, you have some free slots since you don't have any Mentors in the side. And because you have a threat instead of more defensive measures in the main deck, it incentivizes you to play a little more aggressively in some situations. But it also allows you to not care about 'wasting' your win condition, since you have multiple (setting Jace & Snapcaster beatdowns aside for the moment).

    I suppose I view Mentor as serving a few different functions:

    1. As a late-game play when the game is under control, it is a win condition.
    2. As an early or mid-game play when the game is unstable, it can be a bridge to the late game.
    3. As an early or mid-game play when the game is potentially quiet, it can be a win condition.

    #1 is pretty similar to Entreat. Mentor is more fragile and a bit slower in these situations, but hopefully by this time the difference isn't substantial. But Mentor enables #2 and especially #3 in a way that Entreat doesn't. By running multiple maindeck Mentors, you can run one out without too much fear of it being killed in situations where it might win the game. Sometimes it will die right away or after making only a single monk, and hopefully buy you time to find a Terminus / Jace / etc. But other times, the opponent just won't have the answer and an early Mentor will win you the game.

    Brian Braun-Duin wrote an article for TCGplayer a while ago with some thoughts on Mentor that I think I agree with:

    I don't view cards like Mentor, Jace, Blood Moon or even Counterbalance as win conditions. I view them simply as means to an end. I see people too often playing scared to drop their Counterbalance into an answer or play their Mentor out unprotected on turn three, but those are the plays you have to make. I view these cards as expendable and often jam them as early as I can and force them (sometimes literally Force them) to have an answer. Yeah, sometimes they have the Spell Pierce for your Counterbalance or the Daze for your Monastery Mentor. In that case, you get to just keep playing the game. But when they don't have those cards, well, they're probably just dead.

    When you play the game this way, it puts a lot of pressure on them to keep up. Normally, Miracles is playing from behind and trying to leverage Sensei's Divining Top at the right times to wrest control of the game before it's too late. Well, I find that it often ends up being too late when you're facing down the kinds of threats people are playing today, like True-Name Nemesis, Liliana of the Veil or Leovold, Emissary of Trest.

    With the Mentor version, you have a quick way to turn the corner and sometimes you also get to force them to play from behind, which is not where Delver decks traditionally thrive. When they are trying to play catch-up and are spending their turns answering your threats, you are in the driver seat. Now that's what I call control.

    ...

    Playing with these kinds of powerful game-ending effects and playing them proactively and without fear is how Miracles wins a lot of these games. As it turns out, Mentor is a more powerful threat than almost anything your opponent can be doing. If they don't have an answer to a Mentor, you'll outrace Delver or Death and Taxes or whatever creature deck they are presenting. If they do, then maybe the turn they spent killing your Mentor allows you to successfully stick a Jace the next turn.
    I think some of the assessment has changed since the Top ban (you can't Top on upkeep and replay Top to get a one-mana Monk every turn, so it's a little harder to be as aggressive with Mentor), and I think that without Counterbalance it makes sense to be a little more cautious running out an early Mentor since it's harder to protect, but I think the general principles still apply: Mentor allows us to quickly become proactive, force the opponent to 'have it', and if nothing else buy time to find a Terminus / Jace / etc.

  2. #42

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Tel'Lythari View Post

    From my experience, MMs come in handy against MUs where we do not have the inevitability. Lands is one example, while others include Eldrazi (Post/Stompy) and Burn (if Leylines are not present in the SB) etc. These are some examples that I can think of from the top of my head.
    There used to be a point in time when MM refers to Meddling Mage. It's weird to me people use MM for Monastery Mentor.

    In the post SDT ban Miracles, you never have inevitability, assuming you refer to the inevitability of Counterbalance-Top lock pre-ban. You'll never get to CB lock your opponent and sometimes a combination of Snapcaster + Lightning bolt via Grixis player's top-deck is all it takes to decide a match.

    Part of Mentor's strength is its interaction with single or double Tops. BBD wrote the article of jamming Mentor in a time people were spending resources such as Decay on Counterbalance. Now People have Push and/or Bolt maybe Decay to deal with Mentor. While I still play the card, I wonder if it's better off for Mentor to be in an Esper shell than in Miracles.

  3. #43

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Kind of a valid question at least, which is strange because before the ban the idea of an Esper Miracles was a very effective way to troll this thread. The value of blasts in Legacy is still high, because how could it not be, but surely less high than it was before. It used to be the best way to deal with CB and JTMS in the mirror. Half of that is irrelevant now and the matchup is less common quite generally, and meanwhile two combo decks are in the DTB section, both of which are solid discard targets.

  4. #44

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Hey guys,

    I'm really intrigued by Miracles and want to give it a try. What do you guys think of the viability of an Esper build? I was thinking of making a build similar to Callum Smith's in the primer with a couple of Underground Seas in the main and some discard in the board to fight through combo.

    The main reason for this is $$. I have a couple of Underground Seas, but no red cards, Volcs, and no flusterstorms.

    Sent from my FRD-L04 using Tapatalk

  5. #45

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Munchyman View Post
    Recently I added a Moat to my SB with main deck being Entreat build. With the aid of jtms fateseal, I was able to beat a D&T deck I was way behind on. My main fateseal target was Flickerwisp.

    Has anyone been using moat in their board?
    I have used Moat in my board but I don't get to play often, and when I have played I've either not been in matchups where I've brought it in, or when I did bring it in I didn't draw it, so unfortunately I cannot tell you how it worked out for me.

    I am interested in your experiences with the card though; it's good to know others have thought of it as an option too.

  6. #46

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Moat is a fine SB card for an Eldrazi-heavy meta.

    Esper Miracles w/ Thoughtseize sounds like a straight-up combo muncher. It seems bad in a meta with a lot of fair decks.

  7. #47

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Could always play Esper Miracles with a regular UW Maindeck and proceed to bring in a slew of discard spells vs any unfair deck after board. Also you get access to SB cards like Engineered Plague as well.

  8. #48

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by gh0st_b1rd View Post
    Could always play Esper Miracles with a regular UW Maindeck and proceed to bring in a slew of discard spells vs any unfair deck after board. Also you get access to SB cards like Engineered Plague as well.
    Yeah, this is exactly what I was thinking. Something like this:

    Main Deck

    Creatures:
    3x Snapcaster Mage

    Instants and Sorceries:
    4x Brainstorm
    3x Counterspell
    4x Force of Will
    4x Predict
    4x StP
    2x Unexpectedly Absent
    1x Entreat the Angels
    4x Ponder
    4x Portent
    4x Terminus

    Other:
    3x Jace, TMS

    Land:
    4x Flooded Strand
    4x Polluted Delta
    1x Scalding Tarn
    4x Island
    2x Plains
    3x Tundra
    2x Underground Sea

    Sideboard:
    1x Blue Elemental Blast
    1x Containment Priest
    1x Disenchant
    1x Engineered Plague
    1x Ethersworn Canonist
    2x Inquisition of Kozilek
    2x Monastery Mentor
    1x Nihil Spellbomb
    2x Surgical Extraction
    2x Thoughtseize
    1x Vendilion Clique

    I have an additional question: what is the Eldrazi matchup like? I have always struggled against it when playing other decks.

    Sent from my FRD-L04 using Tapatalk

  9. #49

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    I have only been playing against it with maindeck Mentors, so I guess the short answer is answer CotV whenever possible and a willingness to at least 2-for-1 yourself when removing a threat thanks to the fact that they are threat-light.

    But more often than not you lose because they played Chalice and you have a handful of cantrips, Snaps and lands.

    Other than that its just a deck full of idiots. If there was ever a caveman tribal deck, it was never Juggernauts, it was always Eldrazi. Its not hard to outsmart cavemen when they cant swing their nihilist grail at you.

  10. #50

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Feels like I got trolled or people just misunderstood me. Esper Miracles is not good. I'm just saying Esper Mentor in this meta might be competitive, but it would be a totally different deck. More like a deck that utilizes free spells like Probes and maybe 0 mana artifacts, but to discuss further means derailing this thread.

    Back to Miracles, is soothsaying that horrendous? From post Top ban to GP:LV to now, feels like I went full circle. If the format is full of fair decks, either running SFM (including DnT), or just completely ditch Decay and enchantment removal (like Grixis YP), it's worth the effort to experiment, might just work in this meta, something like this:

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    2 Predict
    3 Counterbalance
    3 Soothsaying
    4 Force of Will
    2 Counterspell
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Terminus
    1 Council's Judgment
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Entreat the Angels
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    2 Monastery Mentor
    3 Snapcaster Mage

    20 usual lands

  11. #51

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Sefir View Post
    2) Other than praying, what is your line of play against the Lands matchup fo g1?
    I like to scoop fast and try to convince them I'm on UWx Stoneblade if they don't completely brick. Say something like "Well, the only way I'm winning Game 1 is if I get a super fast Jitte on True-Name" and hope they buy it.

  12. #52
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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Arschmann View Post
    I like to scoop fast and try to convince them I'm on UWx Stoneblade if they don't completely brick. Say something like "Well, the only way I'm winning Game 1 is if I get a super fast Jitte on True-Name" and hope they buy it.
    Ah ah, oh Jesus...
    This is not properly "competitive" advice..


    Quote Originally Posted by Sefir View Post
    2) Also regarding Lands, it is a hard matchup. Without Top we are unable to keep up with their pace, especially g1 where Surgical the Loam/ playing Blood Moon or Back to Basics is not an option. I feel that even with Mentor main, they are much faster than us in finding their combo for the kill. Other than praying, what is your line of play against the Lands matchup fo g1? Any advice would be appreciated.
    G1 is not simple:
    Fetch for basics.
    Double Plains are relevant because of Unexpectedly.
    The two common way to win are a fast Mentor, countering his Crop Rotation (who want to tutoring Glacial Chasm / Tabernacle).
    Resolve Jace as fast as possible and scry his top: you don't want Punishing Fire and you want to win by ultimatum.
    This are the only ways to win a "normal" game.


    G2 is too simple because you have a lot of response: Surgical in primis.



    Quote Originally Posted by twndomn View Post
    Feels like I got trolled or people just misunderstood me. Esper Miracles is not good. I'm just saying Esper Mentor in this meta might be competitive, but it would be a totally different deck. More like a deck that utilizes free spells like Probes and maybe 0 mana artifacts, but to discuss further means derailing this thread.
    I quote this.
    Iimho "standard" Miracle with 0-2 Mentors in Esper configuration is not good.

    Anyway UWB Mentor Miracle is a nice deck.
    I have play it for a tournament and he give me satisfactions.
    You can read my report here:

    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1016437

    6-1 in this tournament (losing by Burn, that anyway is a bad matchup for all Miracle versions).
    I think UWB is a different, funny, approach.
    In a combo meta is very good because of his proactive nature.
    Seize, Snap, Seize...or any discard + Surgical...are strong piece of play.


    Quote Originally Posted by twndomn View Post
    Back to Miracles, is soothsaying that horrendous? From post Top ban to GP:LV to now, feels like I went full circle. If the format is full of fair decks, either running SFM (including DnT), or just completely ditch Decay and enchantment removal (like Grixis YP), it's worth the effort to experiment, might just work in this meta, something like this: LIST...
    I don't have try the Soothsaying version of new Miracle.
    I don't know if a classical Balance version is good now.
    All the times that i see some good player test this card, i'm not impressed.
    - Miracle
    - Blade
    - Landstill

  13. #53

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrothgar View Post
    Ah ah, oh Jesus...
    This is not properly "competitive" advice..
    At GP Vegas:

    R8 - 20 minute game 1 vs Lands. I lose the match
    R11 - 10 minute game 1 vs Lands. I conceded game 1, won g2 and 3.
    R13 - 5 minute game 1 vs Lands. He found Grove + P. Fire and I scooped.

    Unless your Lands opponent is really bad, its usually not worth the time to try and cheese a win with Mentor/Jace unless your hand is REALLY good, and even then its iffy. We just dont have a way to interact. Since the GP, I've added 1 Blood Moon which gives me *something* to dig for w/ Predict and Snapcaster Mage. They can't beat that card G1.

  14. #54

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by AnziD View Post
    Since the GP, I've added 1 Blood Moon which gives me *something* to dig for w/ Predict and Snapcaster Mage. They can't beat that card G1.
    There is a way out of G1 Bloodmoon, in gambling together Loam and Vortex. It's a longshot though, especially versus a deck with counterspells.

  15. #55
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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Ingo View Post
    There is a way out of G1 Bloodmoon, in gambling together Loam and Vortex. It's a longshot though, especially versus a deck with counterspells.
    There's also Mox Diamond. Makes it incredibly difficult for Lands but not impossible.

  16. #56

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by AnziD View Post
    At GP Vegas:

    R8 - 20 minute game 1 vs Lands. I lose the match
    R11 - 10 minute game 1 vs Lands. I conceded game 1, won g2 and 3.
    R13 - 5 minute game 1 vs Lands. He found Grove + P. Fire and I scooped.

    Unless your Lands opponent is really bad, its usually not worth the time to try and cheese a win with Mentor/Jace unless your hand is REALLY good, and even then its iffy. We just dont have a way to interact. Since the GP, I've added 1 Blood Moon which gives me *something* to dig for w/ Predict and Snapcaster Mage. They can't beat that card G1.
    I was thinking of something like that. Why not using bloodmoon to lock the board after a terminus has cleared eventual shaman and creatures. It incidentally destroys alot of decks giving some free wins. Id like to test a couple copies but 1 is probably correct.

    Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk

  17. #57
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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Hei Guys

    I played a 39 man Tournament today with my UWr Miracle list.Sadly i missed the top 8 and finished just 10th place with it but the loses was really unlucky..

    // UWR Portent Miracle

    // 60 Hauptdeck
    // 1 Artifact
    1 Engineered Explosives

    // 6 Creature
    3 Snapcaster Mage
    3 Monastery Mentor

    // 19 Instant
    4 Force of Will
    3 Predict
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Counterspell
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Flusterstorm

    // 20 Land
    3 Volcanic Island
    3 Tundra
    4 Island
    2 Plains
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Polluted Delta
    1 Arid Mesa

    // 3 Planeswalker
    3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    // 11 Sorcery
    4 Ponder
    4 Terminus
    3 Portent


    // 15 Sideboard
    // 1 Artifact
    SB: 1 Engineered Explosives

    // 4 Creature
    SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
    SB: 1 Containment Priest

    // 10 Instant
    SB: 2 Wear // Tear
    SB: 1 Flusterstorm
    SB: 3 Pyroblast
    SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
    SB: 1 Unexpectedly Absent


    Match 1 against DnT (You can see it here on the stream the very first match,, will post the stream later) 2:1

    g1: he had a revoker with SoFaF equipped and i have a mentor and 1 token.. i have a second mentor, a counterspell and a flusterstorm in hand.
    But not enough mana to play mentor and let the mana for CS open. So i decided to play the pressure way and play mentor with 1 mana open for fluster storm. He play eot the 1off Crusader into hardcast jitte..
    Was not sure if this play was correctly but just to wait against dnt is not really great in this boardstate.
    g2 and g3 i just overrun him with jace and mentor

    Match 2 against my lovely Teammate with aggro loam
    G1: I keepet a slower hand top with mentor and jace.. he mull to six and played t1 bob into t2 lili and at one point i could turn the game but never found my terminus:(
    G2: Mull to six with 5 and 1 ee (I kept it for the scry and not die to chalice witch is pretty ok against aggro loam) I drawet just land from the tops so i lost..

    Match 3 Elves 2:1
    G1 Never found a terminus
    G2 Found the terminus
    G3 Cannonist won almost alone with counterback up

    Match 4 12 Post Stompy 1:2

    G1 i have a fast mentor with double fow back up but he played 2 ulamogs in a row and i lost it after..
    G2 Mentor and jace won it.
    G3 Was a awesome game.. i can resolve a jace witch buy me a lot of time.. At the end of the game i handled him 2 Ulamogs and played mentor and jace with no mana open (Nothing relevant in hand) and then he played the 3th ulamog..
    i can handle the ulamog again and he found the 4th ulamog..i was like wtf..

    Match 5

    UB Reanimator 2:0

    Not much to say i just won bouth games.. Game 1 i drew into everything..:P


    Match 6

    Dredge 2:0

    G1 I played around the bridges with snaps and mentor finish the grindgame..
    G2 Hate and mentor win..

    I was happy with the list.. I tried to maximum out the win condition with 3Mentor /3 Jace /3 Snapi.. i really think without daze you still have to play at least 3 mentors.. and i really don't like the ETA anymore without top..
    Stream Link: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/161325031

    I play the first match:)

    Greets Pascal

  18. #58

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Pdingo View Post
    Hei Guys

    I played a 39 man Tournament today with my UWr Miracle list.Sadly i missed the top 8 and finished just 10th place with it but the loses was really unlucky..

    ...
    Thanks for the report & stream link! Quite jealous of your basics. :)

    A couple questions on your list:

    1. Why Wear // Tear over Disenchant? It seems like Disenchant is just a bit easier to play since we're almost always fetching a white source, whereas with Wear // Tear we have to choose between being able to cast Wear and playing around Blood Moon, for instance. Do you find yourself casting both halves very often?

    2. I see you're on the 3 Tundra / 3 Volc with 3 Blasts in the sideboard. Do you plan to bring in any Blasts against Delver decks (hence the 3rd Volc in the main)? Or are you just running 3 Volcs for extra access to red in other matches? (I've been debating whether to even attempt to bring in Blasts against Delver, with or without a third Volcanic Island. Curious to hear your thoughts.)

  19. #59
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    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by AppallinglyDull View Post
    Thanks for the report & stream link! Quite jealous of your basics. :)

    A couple questions on your list:

    1. Why Wear // Tear over Disenchant? It seems like Disenchant is just a bit easier to play since we're almost always fetching a white source, whereas with Wear // Tear we have to choose between being able to cast Wear and playing around Blood Moon, for instance. Do you find yourself casting both halves very often?

    2. I see you're on the 3 Tundra / 3 Volc with 3 Blasts in the sideboard. Do you plan to bring in any Blasts against Delver decks (hence the 3rd Volc in the main)? Or are you just running 3 Volcs for extra access to red in other matches? (I've been debating whether to even attempt to bring in Blasts against Delver, with or without a third Volcanic Island. Curious to hear your thoughts.)

    Hei

    Thanks men!:)

    1. I mean not much changed with the manabase since the Ban.. I mean i always played wear/Tear and 3 volc and never had Problems with wastelands..Wear/Tear is the better Card for me..
    I have to say i use bouth side's alot.. specially against aggro loam. Why play around Blood Moon?

    2. I always board three blasts in against Delver.. Why we should not board in them? That's just bad not to board them in against a deck witch most of them is blue..
    It Counters important Card like BS, Delver or even TNN. Or it wins the Counterwar:) Also the 3 Volc did always great.. sometimes they waste your Tundra then your volc and now we can search again for a volc;) But just 2 Volc is probably to less.

  20. #60

    Re: [DTB] UWx Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Pdingo View Post
    Hei

    Thanks men!:)

    1. I mean not much changed with the manabase since the Ban.. I mean i always played wear/Tear and 3 volc and never had Problems with wastelands..Wear/Tear is the better Card for me..
    I have to say i use bouth side's alot.. specially against aggro loam. Why play around Blood Moon?

    2. I always board three blasts in against Delver.. Why we should not board in them? That's just bad not to board them in against a deck witch most of them is blue..
    It Counters important Card like BS, Delver or even TNN. Or it wins the Counterwar:) Also the 3 Volc did always great.. sometimes they waste your Tundra then your volc and now we can search again for a volc;) But just 2 Volc is probably to less.
    Sorry, I didn't phrase the first question very well. For Blood Moon I was mostly thinking of the Moon Stompy decks where I want to fetch basic Plains & Island but then can't cast Wear on a Chalice. And I'm also playing Unexpectedly Absent, so I want white mana more than your deck does I guess. Probably overthinking it.

    Regarding Blasts and Delver, I've read a lot of 'sideboarding guides' for Miracles (mostly the Counter-Top version) and it seems like a lot of people don't like to bring them in unless they have a basic Mountain (for example, Philip Schonegger's old Miracles primer at SCG). Maybe it's just a personal preference / risk vs. reward.

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