Yeah, I feel going Grixis is definitely the way to go. I think we can still make this work and keep stuff like Strix, Snap, Hymn, K-Command and even Jace rolling. Losing DRS is going to be a major blow for us, but the 2-for-1 mentality can still work in the grand scheme of things. We might even be able to abuse some Blood Moons now. RUG Delver might be popping up and they've been soft to Blood Moon as much as Grixis Delver, if not more so.
Sultai Leovold was a thing before the bannings as well, which doesn't rely on deathrites. I think both Grixis Control and BUG Control shells are reasonable to go into now, and make sure you all load up on those surgical extractions before they spike in price :D I have a feeling 3-4 will be mandatory in SBs now going forward (unless you happen to play white).Originally Posted by Poron
Apart from Library and Abrupt Decay what is the advantage of losing Bolt, Blasts and K-Command?
Overall red gives you the best winnings card ever in a can trip world: Pyromancer
The best line might be back again
Delver
Hymn
Pyromancer
Solid point. I played RUG delver for a while and IIRC it traditionally never played any basics at all. A Blood Moon was nearly impossible to break out of, especially if you had a slow hand and couldn't get under it.
Lots of ways to go here now though. K-Command + Hymn + Snaps are still great. You can also perhaps just replace Leovold with Kess, who's also quite good and go on your way. On the other side, going into BUG gives you access to Abrupt Decay (which suddenly should be really good with Miracles only going up), Leovold and a more discard heavy approach, which should help the combo matchup that'll be much more frequent (sans Reanimator, perhaps). Either way, it'll be interesting to see how things adapt. A lot of decks will need to change now, the whole metagame should look completely different a month from now.
Oh sorry, that came out wrong. Yes absolutely they rely on deathrites but I don't think the deck instantly dies as a result of the banning. They'll adapt the same as the other deathrite decks.
I agree, it likely makes more sense to stick with red due to K-Command and Bolts. Green also has Leovold but I think Kess would be a good solution.
I'm just saying, there's lots of choices and we shouldn't just automatically assume that Grixis is automatically the way to go. Maybe it is (very likely) but Im personally going to explore all options available.
agreed,
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=27610&iddeck=221866
the master already foresaw it coming
So, you're proposing a more midrange-y version of Grixis Delver? Like the ol' BUG Delver, with Hymns and such? That could be interesting, though in the past when we had BUG Delver as one of the T1 decks, there was never a Grixis version that tried to do about the same as BUG Delver did - back then, even though we had RUG Delver messing around with YP. It's interesting, though. Granted, we do have K-Command now.
... thinking of YP and losing Probe makes me sad as well, haha. Fuck these bans!
RUG never played basics, no. 3Volcs/3Trops, 8 fetch, 4 Wastelands.
Kess might be interesting, though I've never been a huge fan of her. Dunno, always felt I'd rather just resolve a Jace. Granted, the 3/4 flying body is a thing. I think it depends on how much Delver we've got coming our way.
Yeah, exactly. Sultai Control was just Czech Pile without red and a TNN + Wastelands sprinkled in.
BUG can definitely be a thing and it really does depend on the meta, but boy ... lemme tell you, I love me some Red Blast / Pyroblast.
The only reason to play green over red can only be Sylvan Library, but with Jace and fetchlands it doesn’t make so much sense
Red gives you blasts bolts commands and Pyromancer..
Abrupt Decay can be a good reason as well, but it is very splashable with a couple of Tropical Island
Sylvan Library can be replaced well enough with Search for Azcanta. Counterbalance might be a problem without Abrupt Decay though.
It's been real. I'm off to tap some moms, ports and vials. Good luck on whatever you pick up next.
The people in this thread trying to keep this archetype alive reminds me when I tried to play NO RUG in 2011 after the misstep banning. The nile is not just a river.
Last edited by Darkness; 07-03-2018 at 09:27 AM.
If there are lessons to be taken from the Miracles community after the Top ban, is that if the community shows enough will, interest and innovation, anything is possible.
4c is dead, but Grixis and BUG will remain.
This is my take as well.... don't know how 4C can live now without deathrite, you can't just swap in 4 BoP, deathrite is one card that is literally irreplaceable.
That said, BUG and Grixis shells will live on and adapt. Yes, they'll be different and will need to adapt to battle GY strategies like Reanimator (expect Grisslenasty to be next on the chopping block, once this becomes oppressive) and dredge. How these shells will look is anyone's guess and which out of the two will be more popular is certainly up for debate. A lot of people in this thread seem to be leaning towards Grixis but BUG was good before the ban (Im aware they too run DS), so I personally want to try some BUG lists as well before dabbling into Grixis. No right or wrong answer here, it'll likely largely depend on meta calls and playstyles. I expect a huge amount of Miracles at my next tournament here, so packing Abrupt Decays feel like a good idea to me.
No, only many things are possible, not anything.
For miracles, top was seemingly just a crutch. I would posit that Deathrite wasn't a crutch, but rather a pillar, nay the cornerstone of the deck.
I don't see how BUG remains. There's nothing good in bug without DRS that would be better off in BUG than other color combinations.
I'd argue that Leovold alone is worth remaining in BUG. Abrupt Decay just adds the icing on the cake to make BUG worth it.
Grixis colors will remain and Leovold dies to
Pyroblast
Bolt
Fatal Push
One thing was to randomly summon it with DRS and any possible combination of two lands.
now the format will be full of Wasteland and Stifle and you have lost your mana fixer and mana dork altogether
A 3 colors sorcery speed spell has no space, imho
Even Jace is often cut G2 because of his mana intensivity and weakness
Last edited by Poron; 07-04-2018 at 08:21 AM.
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