I disagree but time will tell. I would sleeve grixis control up right now if I wanted to play something similar to pile. Decay is only woth the inefficency if CB becomes relevant again.Originally Posted by Hanni
I'm going to fuck around a bit with a Grixis Thieves list, just for the hell of it, seeing as nothing is settled anyways.
[LANDS : 22]
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
[CREATURES : 9]
4 Baleful Strix
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Grim Lavamancer
[PLANESWALKERS : 5]
3 Dack Fayden
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
[INSTANTS : 14]
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Punishing Fire
2 Fatal Push
1 Kolaghan's Command
[SORCERIES : 10]
3 Ponder
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Rise // Fall
SB:
3 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Hydroblast
1 To the Slaughter
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Spell Snare
1 Pernicious Deed
---
We'll see how it goes. At least it does look like fun.
This will be my first attempt for Grixis Control:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Kess, Dissident Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Thoughtseize
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
// Sideboard //
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Pyroblast
2 Hydroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Blood Moon
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
I'm not sure about the Vendilion Clique. I thought about replacing it with either Jace, Vryn's Prodigy or Search for Azcanta.
What are your thoughts about my list?
For Grixis, without DRS do we still like 20 lands or do you think 21 is better?
Latest 5-0's are out on MTGO post ban, this is the version listed for Grixis Control.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1183667#paper
Some interesting choices, thoughts?
Side note, really wish WotC gave us full access, I'd love to see all the decks that are in the 5-0 bracket.
This looks like Pile, minus Leovold and DRS and with those slots filled with 2 Gurmag, Counterspell and some upped numbers on K-Command and Push (depends on which version you ran, of course). This looks really weird to me, though. I know, a single 5-0 list is such a small sample size, but this just looks clunky as fuck. This deck really has 1 turn one play on the play and it's to cast Ponder (or Brainstorm, I guess). I'm not saying it's mandatory to have a turn 1 play, but in a DRS-less version of Pile (I'm just gonna call this Pile) is it really the way to go to make this deck's curve even higher than it was when DRS was around? That can't be correct ... No TS, no Inquisition. Nowhere in the 75.
How does this not fold to tempo decks / mana denial? He might not have encountered any - that could be the case. I don't know, though, this list just looks way too optimistic.
cool, that list is very similar to what I've been testing with to very positive results (-2 Push, +2 Bolt; -1 Hymn, -1 Command, +2 Deluge; -2 Counterspell +2 Thoughtseize), slightly different mana base (I have 4 basics) and sideboard.
I don't really think it seems that clunky. I mean, what's Miracles doing on turn 1 besides Ponder? I guess they have Portent, too, sure. And I will agree that I like a few Thoughtseizes in the maindeck but Ponder, TS or Removal turn 1 is perfectly reasonable.
I don't know, I don't see why there isn't a deck here. It's pretty similar to Miracles in concept, but instead of StP we're playing Bolt/Push, and the tools we use to create value are slightly different (K Command vs Predict, etc).
I only have about 10 matches so far, so not nearly anything conclusive but I've only lost to UR Delver (0-2, game 1 kept a slow hand and game 2 I neglected to play around PoP and got destroyed but probably would've lost regardless) and Miracles (1-2; game 1 had him hellbent but he topdecked a Search for Azcanta that I couldn't deal with, won game 2 handily, game 3 had double force for my removal on Mentor). Creature matchups seem easy, I've played Elves three times and just straight obliterated it every time, and played Merfolk and won in 3. Going to keep testing with the shell with minor tweaks here and there, having a lot of fun with it.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying this couldn't work, but I'm exactly in the camp you seem to be: Possibly slightly more basics and definitely turn 1 interaction like TS / IoK. We're not Miracles, though. We don't have access to a 1 mana sweeper and 1CMC removal that gets rid of anything outside of basically TNN and Goose. Push is great, Bolt is great - but Bolt often doesn't get rid of a Goyf or Gurmag.
Also, from reading your post; You haven't playtested against any form of mana-denial? No (RUG) Delver, DnT, Maverick, etc? Correct?
Hi guys!
The Deathrite Shaman’s ban destroy the classic Grixis Delver archetype and the 4c Control Czech Pile archetype.
Many players, after ban, trying to use the Grixis colors with good feedback from test. Here we all can talking about the possible evolutions of the Grixis colors in competitive Legacy.
In this Discord now we have two different sections:
- MIDRANGE (similar to old Czech Pile decks)
- DELVER (similar to old Grixis Delver decks)
Each gameplay variant of Grixis gets its own channel based of 2 subchannels from now on: “General” and “Decklist”. If the subchannels are being used more often and we feel like too many people joined or actively post, we will think about extending it.
If you miss anything or feel like we should add something, please let me know!
I hope you like this and will be good for all of us!
All of you can use this link that will not expire, to invite other players / share the chat
https://discord.gg/GuBX4wd
You’re also free to create new invite.
He ended up going 4-1, losing to RUG delver. Same list as the 5-0 on MTGGoldfish.
Pretty good games, deck seemed solid despite the lack of one drops.
Yeah, I was surprised as well, though I do have to say that if RUG Delver is going to be T1, the list he was running did seem a little clunky, but that could also be due to him boarding out the Pushes, which he mentioned was probably a mistake.
I didn't list everything I'd played against. And again barely any matches, so take it with a huge grain of salt. I'll be keeping testing for sure.
Played five pre-board games against my friend's DnT during the prerelease this weekend (slightly outdated so no Brightling or that new crypt-on-a-stick), went 3-1-? (we had to stop in the middle of one game but it was a tossup with Batterskull and cards in hand vs my 2 Anglers and hellbent). Wasteland was moderately annoying, Port less so because we operate so much at instant speed. The 2x Deluge maindeck was obviously huge. I'm on 2x K Command right now (mostly because I only own 2 online where I play for the most part) and a third somewhere in the 75 would be amazing here, I think.
Played against 4C Loam once and won in 3, lost game one (kind of punted, could've dealt with a KotR at the expense of a Deluge and 5 or 6 life; held it wanting to get more value, KotR snowballed and was my downfall) then G2/3 were a combination of wrecking him with Hymn and not letting literally a single threat resolve between Bolt/Push (which could maybe change to a 3/2 split), Edict and Deluge.
Haven't played RUG Delver yet, and I can see it being tough if they're on the Stifle plan.
Again single matches here and there so nothing conclusive besides a first "feel" for the deck, but I think they can be fun to read anyway so why not.
Edit: oh and I also lost to storm 2x, 1-2 both times but I don't think it's a terrible terrible matchup by any means.
(Just treating this as a place to post Grixis Control stuff for now, I guess)
Won a twenty man, four round tournament with my local playgroup earlier today. Chill but competitive group, got at least one PT guy, some grinders, some MTGO guys, some dudes who mostly just fuck around with the group on Saturdays and hit the odd GP every now and then (aka me), etc. I'd consider it late day one/day two GP level of competency.
I'll post my list, my results, and some thoughts interspersed between. My original list was close to the one that was posted earlier in this thread as a 5-0, which had little 1CMC interaction. I then saw another list posted on MTGTop8 that featured a full 4 Thoughtseize maindeck, which I loved. However, the creature package didn't include any Snapcasters and included 3 TNN which I don't think is where we want to be at, so I kind of fused the two of those lists and my original list that I was testing (which was similar to that first mentioned, 5-0 list)
The List:
LANDS: 20
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
People are basically floating between 19-21 lands right now. With the 3 Preordain build as you'll see below, the list I referenced had 19 lands. But I didn't have enough proxies printed out (I mostly play on MTGO and when I play paper with the gang, I use cool alter art proxies printed off Google. It dictated several of my card choices haha, as I'll describe) to fill out the 60th card so I tossed in a 20th land, the second Mire, which I'd printed. But I was very happy with the 20 land count.
Threats: 11
4 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Angler was an all-star. Non white decks just can't deal with him, and against white decks it's easy enough to hold him until you get to a position when you can answer a StP or don't mind it resolving. The graveyard can get a bit tight between him and Snapcaster, so I think 2 is a good number. Never not playing 4 Strix, it just checks all the boxes. My original list had all four Snapcasters but again I only had the two proxies, so I swapped the last two with two Counterspells. I think I'd like a third Snapcaster possibly but the Counterspells were really good all day (except when I sided them out vs DnT). Nothing too crazy with the Planeswalkers, Lili is just insta-gg against some matchups and I actually got to ulti her three times(!) today which was sweet. Other possible inclusions: TNN -- don't like it. Blocks I guess and pitches to Force, but is just kind of slow and awkward and not where I want to be at. Kess: worse than Snapcaster Mage IMO. More of a "fun of" card.
Spells: 29
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Thoughtseize
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Counterspell
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Force of Will
Like I mentioned the Counterspells were a bit of a late addition but they performed very nicely and I would include at least one in my flex slots going forward, I think. The major thing here is playing the full four Thoughtseize maindeck and zero Hymn's (relegated to the sideboard) -- this could be controversial but I feel like we already have a fine enough matchup against the grindy archetypes that Hymn is nice vs, and adding the Thoughtseizes maindeck gives us extra percentage points vs combo. And casting T1 Thoughtseize is just really fun. I was also really happy with the three Preordains as something extra to do early in the game. Otherwise the inclusions are standard enough -- I settled on a 2/2 Bolt/Push split after generally running more Bolts than Pushes in the past -- I just wanted to be able to answer threats like Knight of the Reliquary while dropping the extra points against planeswalkers (and the odd burn to win the game). I love at least 1 Diabolic Edict and Toxic Deluge in the maindeck flex slots (which I'll outline below) to hedge against Marit Lage tokens and any go wide strategies, Deluge is also really really nice against DnT. I didn't have room to fit a third K Command but I would've loved to have another, it was critical in two of my matches.
Sideboard: 15
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Blood Moon
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Pyroblast
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Toxic Deluge
Nothing too crazy going on here. This is probably close to what I would run in an open metagame, but I did consider my local gang when putting this together. We have a fairly standard metagame with a slight lean towards combo decks, which was a great reason to play the full four Thoughtseize maindeck, and supplement with an additional two Edict and some other incidental stuff here. Two Hymn to Tourach to bring in against grindy stuff like Miracles, Death and Taxes, etc; anything where you aren't getting your face beat in super quickly and are looking for two-for-ones. Otherwise not much to say -- I opted to play two Blood Moon here instead of like one more anti-combo spell (a third Flusterstorm probably) and one more anti-grind card (a Bitterblossom or Chandra etc). But I figured Blood Moon just straight hoses some archetypes and that's worth two slots, and I also know we have at least one and generally two Lands players.
So there's the deck and some rambling. Unfortunately I don't actually have a spectacular memory so I'm way better at the theoretical stuff above than actually describing my matches haha. But I'll give you the rundown and a few quick thoughts on each:
Round 1: Four Color Loam (W 2-0, 1-0 in matches)
I consider this a fine matchup, probably slightly favored. They have Wasteland and Chalice but otherwise not really much going on in the way of threats that we have a hard time answering, and their grind isn't as good as ours once we start two-for-oneing, even with Life from the Loam and P Fire, IMO. Maybe I just got lucky that my opponent never tried to cast Liliana (would love a third Bolt and/or third Snapcaster for this matchup). And due to P Fire we do pretty much need to win with planeswalkers or Angler, so important to keep in mind how we protect those. Luckily they don't have much answer for Angler.
Game one involved an early Chalice for one which I was able to play around and then kill with C Command, eventually using Lili ultimate to make a million zombies. Game two I was able to kill all his threats, including one turn where I had to Deluge for 1 to knock off a Dryad Arbor so I could Edict his Knight. Eventually beat him to death with an Angler. I don't really remember any other specific details of this match but it felt easy and I was never not in control.
Round 2: Storm (W 2-0, 2-0 in matches)
Storm on the other hand I just don't love. Firstly I just hate playing against it, I find the "sit there and sculpt your hand" type of game less fun than games with a lot of creatures and removal being flung back and forth (I think my favorite matchup to play with this deck is DnT for that reason). And secondly I think it can be a toss up and that they're probably slightly favored. The four Thoughtseize was really nice though.
Game one my opponent and I traded draw and discard spells and we got to a point at which he Thoughtseized me which I fake-thought about for a while, finally Counterspelling with an "eh, fine" and Force+pitch in hand. He immediately went for Infernal Tutor->Sac two LED's and I wrecked him with Force and eventually won via Jace ultimate. Game 2 I don't remember as much, he mulliganed to six and did nothing turn 1, I Thoughtseized away a Tutor and then Surgicaled it (I don't *love* Surgical against Storm but I'll generally bring in at least 1 since I have a lot to board out and it can be fine) in an otherwise anemic hand and eventually beat him down with an Angler after countering a few spells and him generally never being able to combo. The actual Counterspells were really nice in this matchup.
Round 3: "Steel Stompy" (Chalice Affinity) (W 2-1, 3-0 in matches)
This is a sweet deck from a dude who always brings some spicy stuff to the table. Basically Modern Affinity but with Sol Lands and Chalice plus more big spells like Karn and all four Walking Ballista etc.
Game one he resolved a T1 Chalice on the play, I looked at my hand of five one drops and frowned. I was eventually able to K Command it but it was too late, he'd hit me with a Wasteland at that point and I was way behind and died to the board (I do think I slightly misplayed the K Command modes though and could've possibly lived one more turn but was probably still toast). Game 2 I was able to Blood Moon away his million manlands, kill all his threats and I think beat him down with Angler, don't really remember. Game 3 was a lot of removal plus a resolved Liliana causing him problems, I was eventually able to +1 a Ravager causing him to sac the only other artifact he had, which I responded with a K Command to discard his last card and finish the Ravager. He scooped when I ultied Liliana. K Command was an absolute all star in this match, not surprisingly. A third would've been a welcome addition.
Round 4: Death and Taxes (W 2-1, 4-0 in matches)
I generally consider this matchup super fun, so I was happy to play against it. I think it could be a 50-50 matchup. I've had very good results in my tiny amount of testing which I've outlined in my last post but they always seem to have some tricks up their sleeve.
Game 1 was a 25 minute long grind fest. Eventually through removal and disruption the board boiled down to his Thalia+Jitte+Karakas shenanigans vs my Gurmag Angler. I eventually drew Liliana which is just nuts in this matchup, and used it to fuck with his Thalia and chip damage in, eventually I was able to finish the Thalia with a K Command and finish him off. Game two he beat my face in quickly with Thalia + some dork with a Sword of Light and Shadow on it. Game three he didn't have a ton going on early game besides a Vial which I always force and some land disruption, he eventually had a Mom and tapped out for the new 1WW Morphling dude (forget the name) against which I was luckily able to rip the land I needed for Toxic Deluge. Then I cast Liliana, he was able to drop a Revoker naming it but I had a Fatal Push and was off to the races, eventually winning with ultimate Zombies.
All in all still really loving the deck, especially this new list with more early casts in Thoughtseize and Preordain. Building off this shell, which I think I'll keep roughly the same, I consider the flex slots:
2 Counterspell
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Preordain
I wouldn't hate cutting a Preordain and just having two, but for now I'm going to keep working with the three. The rest you can just shift as needed, I could see adding more Snapcaster Mages for sure and possibly another Bolt. I also don't hate the idea of adding another grindy spell like maybe a Search for Azcanta (we're a bit soft to Wasteland anyway so why not right?) or a Painful Truths/Night's Whisper or something just to add some points vs grindy stuff.
Let me know if you have any questions! And would love to hear about how other people are faring with Grixis.
Hey Mewtu - glad to see somebody else is having success with Grixis right now. Yesterday I ran the Grixis Control list that the Brainstorm Show podcast guys talked about through a League and went 5-0. The list is:
4 Baleful Strix
2 Gurmag Angler
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Bitterblossom
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Blood Moon
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Fatal Push
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Badlands
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
Sideboard:
2 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Snare
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Engineered Plague
1 Painful Truths
1 Vendilion Clique
I really liked Gurmag and Bitterblossom. Sticking an early BB against most control decks or even decks you generally have a hard time closing out allowed me to have the constant pressure that control decks like this can lack sometimes. Sometimes fetching the basics to play around wastelands was awkward, but without any main deck hymns, it's not too bad. The amount of wastelands that were invalidated from my opponents I miss hymns, but this deck having four MD targeted removal makes up for it a bit. Next time I run it through a league, I'll likely move the MD moon to the side for another JTMS or other sticky threat.
Was waiting to see if this deck would be kicked out of the DTB section but I guess Czech Pile (or Grixis Control??) is here to stay.
I have been looking at Wilson Hunter's new Grixis Control list and I think it's a good underdog choice for the current meta. It has answers to a lot of things other decks will be doing and I can't help but feel that very few opponents will see it coming.
That being said, I am gearing up for Eternal Weekend in Yokohama this next month and there are a couple of decks that I am looking at testing against.
1. Sneak and Show
This deck was one that I thought was not discussed enough after the deathrite ban. It lost nothing in the banning other than its worst matchup (grixis delver) and a slightly unfavored matchup (storm). I think this will be the deck to beat going forward. Additionally, the Japanese are also notorious for their love of show and tell. What cards are important to have against this deck?
2. UWx Control
Miracles as well as UWx Stoneblade both seem to be solid deck choices in the new meta. With the 'goose being loose' and TNN still a viable option, I think that wraths will be at a premium. Additionally, if Sneak and Show does become the number 1 deck, then extreme control strategies might be good options to fight against it.
Due to threat of these decks (perceived or otherwise) there has been an uptick of bitterblossoms in grixis lists. How effective is this card against them?
3. Death and Taxes
This is already a pretty good matchup for us I think so I don't think it will require much consideration here.
4. RUG Delver
This deck will prey on any deck with a manabase that is susceptible to its attacks. I think that push, bolt and gurmag line up well against this deck. As long as we can avoid having fetches stifled and discard the geese then we should be alright.
Are there any other decks that I should add to this list? Do you disagree with anything that I have written above?
mise 'miz v alter. of might as well (1997) 1: to win when you don't deserve to 2: to top-deck the "tings" you need 3: to be rewarded by an opponent's bad luck 4: to coin a phrase that spreads through the tournament scene like wildfire 5: to fling a monkey 6: to split firewood using a sharp instrument 7: To burn
Hi all,
As the author of this deck's Primer, I wanted to have a quick discussion on how to proceed with this thread. With DRS gone, the future of this deck is certainly going to be different. I already added a note in the history section that this will bring significant implications. It may become Grixis focused or BUG, or maybe both will exist in some form. I suppose the question is, should we keep this thread as a place to discuss these new versions or create new ones and leave this one as a small piece of Legacy history?
I realize the meta is in flux and will take some time to stabilize. If we are to keep this one, I could potentially try to update the primer with new information and lists. I also wouldn't be opposed to someone else taking the mantle in a new thread as I will be busying taking a new job in the coming months. Please chime in on your thoughts. It is sad that Czech Pile was such a short-lived deck, but I am happy that I was able to contribute to the community in some way, and I hope that the deck adapts and continues to exist in some shape or other.
I think we have pretty good matchups vs D&T en Blade decks in general (depending on the list), but Miracles is going to be harder without Leovold, Library, Decay and Hymn. Bitterblossom can be quite good vs Miracles, though. I'll give you that - not sure if that's enough, though.
S&T isn't going to be a good matchup and I think S&T is going to be one of the biggest DsTB. Arcane Artisan is a good new addition to the deck as well and is going to tamper with our SB-plan. Speaking of; I definitely suggest running 3 REBs in the new meta. Also, S&T can fold to an early clock + permission / disruption and while we can do the permission / disruption part, an early clock we can't deliver and Bitterblossom isn't going to change that at all (it's achingly slow), neither is Blood Moon. The downside of the above list is that it also packs zero Hymns, which are great vs combo. The loss of DRS is actually really apparent in this matchup, since DRS not only provided an early EOT clock, it also enabled us to discard and keep mana open for permission.
I think RUG Delver is rather even. If they get the Threat / Stifle / Wasteland / Daze hand, it's hard to get going and the above list also runs 1 less Push and 0 Edicts. Bitterblossom gets sided out in that MU (according to the Sideboard Mapping), but that list does run more Basics, which can be good, but can also provide some color-issues. Blood Moon is GG vs RUG and if they side out FoWs, that might be a really big win there.
I think we can keep this thread going. The Grixis lists, at least, are very much Pile-like in nature and they're basically just Pile without DRS and Leovold. BUG lists still vary a lot, some going with a similar setup as the Grixis lists, others veering off towards the Noble and Goyf side of things.
I think we can still make it clear in the primer that this deck / these decks were birthed from what Pile used to be; keeping the history intact.
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