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Thread: [Deck] Czech Pile

  1. #261
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard View Post
    Hi guys, I have an unusual question for ya.

    What do I do as a goblins player that scares you, if anything?

    Obviously SB Blood Moon is a good card.
    Being threat dense is great (Multiple Siege-Gang Commanders).
    Making DRS inert is the strongest thing I can do that I've found (Relic etc).

    Basically, what do you struggle with, both with, and ignoring my deck? I was hoping for some more insight. Knowledge is power an' all.
    I've never played pile against goblins so I can't draw from direct experience but it does have trouble with lightning fast aggro. Main we only run 0-1 sweepers and post SB we have 2-3. This can mean that a fast aggro hand + a so-so keep on our part could mean a win for you. Our strategy will come down to removing your creatures as fast as you play them while searching for sweepers. If you can play them faster then you win.

    Cards like Ringleader (reload your hand), Krenko Mob Boss and Rabblemaster (Army in a can) would be stuff that we don't want to see from you. If you play Rishidan Port then that also would slow us down long enough for you to get there. Sharpshooter would also be a pain since a lot of our creatures are x/1 and our striges are a main part of preserving life total.

    Effects like blood moon would definitely hurt us but we wouldn't necessarily scoop to it. We run 2 basics and have deathrite shaman for mana. Some Pile lists have been running moon too. Honestly your main game plan seems good enough.

    Does anyone else have direct experience?
    mise 'miz v alter. of might as well (1997) 1: to win when you don't deserve to 2: to top-deck the "tings" you need 3: to be rewarded by an opponent's bad luck 4: to coin a phrase that spreads through the tournament scene like wildfire 5: to fling a monkey 6: to split firewood using a sharp instrument 7: To burn

  2. #262
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by Misersoneof View Post
    I've never played pile against goblins so I can't draw from direct experience but it does have trouble with lightning fast aggro. Main we only run 0-1 sweepers and post SB we have 2-3. This can mean that a fast aggro hand + a so-so keep on our part could mean a win for you. Our strategy will come down to removing your creatures as fast as you play them while searching for sweepers. If you can play them faster then you win.

    Cards like Ringleader (reload your hand), Krenko Mob Boss and Rabblemaster (Army in a can) would be stuff that we don't want to see from you. If you play Rishidan Port then that also would slow us down long enough for you to get there. Sharpshooter would also be a pain since a lot of our creatures are x/1 and our striges are a main part of preserving life total.

    Effects like blood moon would definitely hurt us but we wouldn't necessarily scoop to it. We run 2 basics and have deathrite shaman for mana. Some Pile lists have been running moon too. Honestly your main game plan seems good enough.

    Does anyone else have direct experience?
    Funny thing about that, and why I asked. Goblins is not an aggro deck, It's a mid range control deck. I can play aggro with a hand that supports it, but most hands are full town grind value, just like your deck.

    If I edit a post without an explanation, I am just correcting typos and / or formatting.
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  3. #263
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    So, I know Burn is a godawful matchup and I've been playtesting with a friend of mine that's been playing Burn on and off for years now and is pretty decent at it. I rarely get to squeeze out a win, usually when I do it's due to a Jace fate-seal and digging for a counter backup in the mean time and barely winning on a Jace Ult. The matchup is SO lopsided, though and I'm aware of it, but Burn is a very real deck and would like to know if there are some angles I'm missing.

    Here are some points I've found and would like to discuss:
    - Deathrite Shaman is an all-known all star, but it never sticks. Good Burn players know that it's a high priority threat; not only due to the life gain, but also do to its ramping possibilities.
    Is it correct to slam it ASAP and hope for the best or would it actually be correct to sandbag it for a bit? The latter seems rather futile due to Burn having so much redundancy.

    - Keeping a hand full of cantrips feels way too slow.

    - Price of Progress is a very real card and even though I / we usually run a single Island and a single Swamp, it does come at the price ... of well, literally progress, haha. Having DRS pretty much never stick makes this even worse.

    - What would you guys say is the "best" way of approach regarding this matchup?

    - Same goes towards SBing. I usually board like this:

    [IN]
    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Blue Elemental Blast
    1 Hymn to Tourach (when on the play)

    [OUT]
    1 Thoughtseize
    1 Toxic Deluge
    1-2 Force of Will (when on the play 2 get boarded and 1 additional Hymn comes in | when on the draw 1 gets boarded)

    Is this the wrong approach in regards to boarding?

  4. #264

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Anyone have any thoughts on this list?

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/922812#paper

    Seems to pop up periodically, and I like the Planeswalker suite; but I feel like it might just not be good enough. Has anyone had a chance to run it themselves?

  5. #265

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by DemolitionColorScheme View Post
    So, I know Burn is a godawful matchup and I've been playtesting with a friend of mine that's been playing Burn on and off for years now and is pretty decent at it. I rarely get to squeeze out a win, usually when I do it's due to a Jace fate-seal and digging for a counter backup in the mean time and barely winning on a Jace Ult. The matchup is SO lopsided, though and I'm aware of it, but Burn is a very real deck and would like to know if there are some angles I'm missing.

    Here are some points I've found and would like to discuss:
    - Deathrite Shaman is an all-known all star, but it never sticks. Good Burn players know that it's a high priority threat; not only due to the life gain, but also do to its ramping possibilities.
    Is it correct to slam it ASAP and hope for the best or would it actually be correct to sandbag it for a bit? The latter seems rather futile due to Burn having so much redundancy.

    - Keeping a hand full of cantrips feels way too slow.

    - Price of Progress is a very real card and even though I / we usually run a single Island and a single Swamp, it does come at the price ... of well, literally progress, haha. Having DRS pretty much never stick makes this even worse.

    - What would you guys say is the "best" way of approach regarding this matchup?

    - Same goes towards SBing. I usually board like this:

    [IN]
    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Blue Elemental Blast
    1 Hymn to Tourach (when on the play)

    [OUT]
    1 Thoughtseize
    1 Toxic Deluge
    1-2 Force of Will (when on the play 2 get boarded and 1 additional Hymn comes in | when on the draw 1 gets boarded)

    Is this the wrong approach in regards to boarding?
    Typically boarding out FoW against burn isn't something I would do. Cards like PoP, Eidolon, Fireblast, GG on the play, or just even protecting a deathrite from a searing blaze are all things that should probably be forced. Burn typically has consistency issues and when you lose its usually with a cards in hand because they kill you quick so the card disadvantage on FoW isn't a thing in this match up.

  6. #266
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by pointicus View Post
    Typically boarding out FoW against burn isn't something I would do. Cards like PoP, Eidolon, Fireblast, GG on the play, or just even protecting a deathrite from a searing blaze are all things that should probably be forced. Burn typically has consistency issues and when you lose its usually with a cards in hand because they kill you quick so the card disadvantage on FoW isn't a thing in this match up.
    Very good point! What would you normally board out, then?

  7. #267

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by walked View Post
    Anyone have any thoughts on this list?

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/922812#paper

    Seems to pop up periodically, and I like the Planeswalker suite; but I feel like it might just not be good enough. Has anyone had a chance to run it themselves?
    Since that's my deck I will be a little biased for sure, but I think the deck is really strong. You have really strong fair deck matchups, and get extra points in some of the unfair matchups(lands, elves, depths, blood moon decks) while losing points in others (Storm, Sneak and Show, Post) (all relative to Czech).

    I also think my deck is somewhat harder than standard builds of Czech to play because it's not always as obvious what the best way to manage your resources is.

    If you're interested in some VoDs to see how the deck plays, you can check out my twitch channel, Twitch.tv/Stryfo. I stream the deck a lot, and (usually) do quite well with it.

  8. #268

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by Stryfo View Post
    Since that's my deck I will be a little biased for sure, but I think the deck is really strong. You have really strong fair deck matchups, and get extra points in some of the unfair matchups(lands, elves, depths, blood moon decks) while losing points in others (Storm, Sneak and Show, Post) (all relative to Czech).

    I also think my deck is somewhat harder than standard builds of Czech to play because it's not always as obvious what the best way to manage your resources is.

    If you're interested in some VoDs to see how the deck plays, you can check out my twitch channel, Twitch.tv/Stryfo. I stream the deck a lot, and (usually) do quite well with it.
    If you don't mind me asking, what makes this version stronger against Lands, Depths, and Moon decks while being weaker against Storm and SnS? Is it the addition of Dack Fayden for filtering?

  9. #269

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    I'll break it down deck by deck:

    Lands: The strength comes from a bunch of small advantages on top of eachother.
    First, Dack does a great job of filtering, as you acknowledge.
    Second, Dack stealing mox diamonds is actually huge, you get to have a non-wastable rainbow source for the rest of the game.
    Third, the planeswalkers I play are harder to p fire down and ult faster than Jace. Dack ultimate isn't game ending, but it buys a ton of time.
    Fourth, I just play more ways of dealing with Marit Lage than most pile lists (rise//fall, Lili, Jace, edict in the main with an additional edict in the board).

    Blood Moon Decks:
    The ability to cast Dack off of a single basic and Chandra off of NO basics is huge, you get inevitability and card selection quickly and with minimal effort as far as fetching basics goes. (This also applies to SnS postboard, but having less discard is still a big disadvantage)

    Depths: I just play more ways of dealing with Marit Lage, also dack emblem ends the game if you can get there.


    SnS: Let me start by saying I don't think my SnS matchup is that bad, but I do play less discard and Leos, which is why I think I lose a few points relative to Czech.

    Storm: Once again, I don't think my matchup is terrible here, but having less access to discard and Leo than Czech makes this a bit worse.

    Hope this was clear, let me know if you have further questions or think any of my points are nonsense.

  10. #270

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by DemolitionColorScheme View Post
    Very good point! What would you normally board out, then?
    It depends on your list and what you have in your SB, but usually Thoughtsiezes, toxic deluge, 1 JtMS, and volcanic ( which depends on what you have to bring in).

    I would also always bring in all the hymns you have in the SB, card is the absolutely the thing you want to see in your opening hand.

  11. #271

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by Stryfo View Post
    I'll break it down deck by deck:

    Lands: The strength comes from a bunch of small advantages on top of eachother.
    First, Dack does a great job of filtering, as you acknowledge.
    Second, Dack stealing mox diamonds is actually huge, you get to have a non-wastable rainbow source for the rest of the game.
    Third, the planeswalkers I play are harder to p fire down and ult faster than Jace. Dack ultimate isn't game ending, but it buys a ton of time.
    Fourth, I just play more ways of dealing with Marit Lage than most pile lists (rise//fall, Lili, Jace, edict in the main with an additional edict in the board).

    Blood Moon Decks:
    The ability to cast Dack off of a single basic and Chandra off of NO basics is huge, you get inevitability and card selection quickly and with minimal effort as far as fetching basics goes. (This also applies to SnS postboard, but having less discard is still a big disadvantage)

    Depths: I just play more ways of dealing with Marit Lage, also dack emblem ends the game if you can get there.


    SnS: Let me start by saying I don't think my SnS matchup is that bad, but I do play less discard and Leos, which is why I think I lose a few points relative to Czech.

    Storm: Once again, I don't think my matchup is terrible here, but having less access to discard and Leo than Czech makes this a bit worse.

    Hope this was clear, let me know if you have further questions or think any of my points are nonsense.
    This makes perfect sense. Thank you.

  12. #272
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by pointicus View Post
    It depends on your list and what you have in your SB, but usually Thoughtsiezes, toxic deluge, 1 JtMS, and volcanic ( which depends on what you have to bring in).

    I would also always bring in all the hymns you have in the SB, card is the absolutely the thing you want to see in your opening hand.
    I see. Thoughtseizes and Deluge going out and Hymns going in are a given. Shaving off a Jace is what I originally planned on doing, but I've never thought about boarding out a Volcanic! Does make sense in terms of PoP.

  13. #273
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by DemolitionColorScheme View Post
    I see. Thoughtseizes and Deluge going out and Hymns going in are a given. Shaving off a Jace is what I originally planned on doing, but I've never thought about boarding out a Volcanic! Does make sense in terms of PoP.
    I agree with taking out TS, Jace, deluge and lands. Going down on lands can give you a higher density of spells to interact with burn. Volcanic is also the weakest land since we don't really need any of our red spells and would much rather have green for leovold or deathrite lifegain.

    However, I don't know if I want to have all 4 forces in my deck against burn. Our deck is built on having answers to any threat and generating card advantage through 2 for 1s once we get to the late game. Forcing a T1 Goblin Guide or Eidelon seems to be an incredibly bad exchange. There are times in which it might be worth it but most of the time we should have a Push, Bolt or Decay to handle them. To me the only cards worth a force are Sulfuric Vortex, big Chandra and Fireblast. You need them for the late game finishers not their early threats. For this reason I like going down to 2. If you are forced to use them on T1 then you are probably not going to win that game anyway.

    Going back to your point on "sticking a deathrite", the question I have to ask myself is, if I play a deathrite and he eats a burn spell am I unhappy with this exchange? As noted before, burn does have consistency issues and we want to play the long game. If in the early game he is merely, "(b) - you gain 3 life, target opponent loses a mana and discards a card" then I would still play it.

    If you are able to get to the late game then you'll be able to get him back with K Command or find another one and by then your burn opponent should be desperately trying to topdeck.
    mise 'miz v alter. of might as well (1997) 1: to win when you don't deserve to 2: to top-deck the "tings" you need 3: to be rewarded by an opponent's bad luck 4: to coin a phrase that spreads through the tournament scene like wildfire 5: to fling a monkey 6: to split firewood using a sharp instrument 7: To burn

  14. #274

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    After few time (over 2 month's) of testing and building my version - finally I got my list. Now I want to share it with you all and hear 5cent.

    LANDS [20]:
    1 Island
    1 Swamp
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Volcanic Island
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Badlands
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Wasteland
    1 Bloodstained Mire

    CREATURES [15]:
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Baleful Strix
    3 Snapcaster Mage
    2 True-Name Nemesis
    2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

    INSTANTS [16]:
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    2 Kolaghan's Command
    1 Lightning Bolt
    2 Fatal Push
    2 Abrupt Decay
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Counterspell

    SORCERIES [8]:
    4 Preordain
    2 Hymn To Tourach
    2 Thoughtseize

    PLANESWALKERS [2]:
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    SIDEBOARD [15]:
    1 Flusterstorm
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Hydroblast
    1 Life from the loam
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Dread of night
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Null Rod
    1 Pithing Needle
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Golgari Charm

    I feel really safe against more of deck with this build. I cannot describe all decisions before your comment. after first fresh air from your side I will speak all strategy in my head. please don't be nice to me now. I Like true opinion.

  15. #275
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by HardBrain View Post
    After few time (over 2 month's) of testing and building my version - finally I got my list. Now I want to share it with you all and hear 5cent.

    LANDS [20]:
    1 Island
    1 Swamp
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Volcanic Island
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Badlands
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Wasteland
    1 Bloodstained Mire

    CREATURES [15]:
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Baleful Strix
    3 Snapcaster Mage
    2 True-Name Nemesis
    2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

    INSTANTS [16]:
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    2 Kolaghan's Command
    1 Lightning Bolt
    2 Fatal Push
    2 Abrupt Decay
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Counterspell

    SORCERIES [8]:
    4 Preordain
    2 Hymn To Tourach
    2 Thoughtseize

    PLANESWALKERS [2]:
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    SIDEBOARD [15]:
    1 Flusterstorm
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Hydroblast
    1 Life from the loam
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Dread of night
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Null Rod
    1 Pithing Needle
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Golgari Charm

    I feel really safe against more of deck with this build. I cannot describe all decisions before your comment. after first fresh air from your side I will speak all strategy in my head. please don't be nice to me now. I Like true opinion.
    Boy, in a deck with 4 colors and so many options there are a lot of things to analyse. Let's see what you've done here...

    You've cut some of the removal/discard (some lists run more Bolts, Edicts, Toxic Deluge or Inquisition) to add 2 True-named Nemesis. You've also adjusted your mana base by cutting two volcanic islands for 2 wastelands and changed 4 ponder into 4 preordain.

    My initial reaction is that you've made the deck less able to deal with creature based strategies and added a way to beat down and race. Additionally, by changing the mana base, you have made it harder to cast spells because you've effectively turned 2 of your lands that tap for mana into spells. You've changed 4 Color Control into 4 Color Midrange.

    To make things even harder on your manabase, you've changed 4 ponders (which give you the ability to look at 4 cards) into preordains which only sees 3 cards.

    This list seems like it would have a much harder time with Delver, D&T, Elves and TES (if they go for goblins) and slightly shores up Miracles, other Pile lists and maybe Lands and Eldrazi.

    What are your reasons for making these changes?
    mise 'miz v alter. of might as well (1997) 1: to win when you don't deserve to 2: to top-deck the "tings" you need 3: to be rewarded by an opponent's bad luck 4: to coin a phrase that spreads through the tournament scene like wildfire 5: to fling a monkey 6: to split firewood using a sharp instrument 7: To burn

  16. #276

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    (I posted this by mistake in the Miracles thread, so you may have seen the question before. )

    Lately there has been a trend to play more Thoughtseize effects. Can someone give a reasoning for that? I guess the aim is to get both players into top decking mode more reliably? Is that a viable strategy against heavier decks with a higher density of late game bombs?

    Has the metagame adjusted to be more resilient to Hymns?

  17. #277

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by Misersoneof View Post
    Boy,
    <3I wanted to discover new field for deck and spread options more and more.

    LANDS [20]:
    1 Island
    1 Swamp
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Volcanic Island
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Badlands
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Wasteland
    1 Bloodstained Mire

    Mana base is maybe strange for more of you. But after 2-3 months testing against decks like .Lands. I can tell that it works! Firstly we have acces to two core basic in this deck. Then still we have two wastelands which shine a lot. In some time we can ruin opponent manaPlan and against deck like ,Lands. we have perfect rest for Token. Against Eldrazi its a huge adv. there are a lot deck when we can crush their strategy just by landKilling. We have a lot of Deck Manipulation card so its no problem to find mana source. don't panic.

    CREATURES [15]:
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Baleful Strix
    3 Snapcaster Mage
    2 True-Name Nemesis
    2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

    2 Nemesis - yes, agains TWO NEMESIS. they are so broken that we cannot erase it from pool. It gives us best way to win with no danger. But describing TNN in Legacy is waste of time. It fits and im sure that he will stay in my Shaman-Strix etc Familly.

    INSTANTS [16]:
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    2 Kolaghan's Command
    1 Lightning Bolt
    2 Fatal Push
    2 Abrupt Decay
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Counterspell

    SORCERIES [8]:
    4 Preordain - it can be dumb step for you guys but look: ponder sees 4 cards (3+1) but if you shuffle those 3 cards are still in drawOption. After Preordain we can peek a bit and decide. After scry to bottom we saw 3 cards (2+1) but we have 100% information that we will not draw those dead cards from bottom. Combine it with Brainstorm. We can BS and Send 2 dead cards down. its a step that you need to feel by your self before respons your opinion. I have spend a lot of games to admit it. ponder < preordain in this deck.
    2 Hymn To Tourach
    2 Thoughtseize

    PLANESWALKERS [2]:
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    SIDEBOARD [15]:
    1 Flusterstorm
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Hydroblast
    1 Life from the loam - BROKEN! its sooooo good against WastelandDecks. especially shines vs D&T but still after SB we can crush opponent man abase by our Wasteland in mirror match. Still remember that we can dredge it and fulfill our grave.
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Dread of night
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Null Rod
    1 Pithing Needle
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Golgari Charm

    //Ps.
    If anyone else have something important to say/ask - please tell me - I will respons with full argument about my changes ;)

    Br.
    Last edited by HardBrain; 02-09-2018 at 05:19 PM.

  18. #278
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    I'm gonna try to go through these points one at a time.

    Quote Originally Posted by HardBrain View Post
    <3I wanted to discover new field for deck and spread options more and more.

    LANDS [20]:
    1 Island
    1 Swamp
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Volcanic Island
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Badlands
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Wasteland
    1 Bloodstained Mire

    Mana base is maybe strange for more of you. But after 2-3 months testing against decks like .Lands. I can tell that it works! Firstly we have acces to two core basic in this deck. Then still we have two wastelands which shine a lot. In some time we can ruin opponent manaPlan and against deck like ,Lands. we have perfect rest for Token. Against Eldrazi its a huge adv. there are a lot deck when we can crush their strategy just by landKilling. We have a lot of Deck Manipulation card so its no problem to find mana source. don't panic.
    I would like to know how and with whom you have tested. To me this seems like you should have gotten the opposite result. Do you have data to back up this claim?

    While having Wasteland can be useful when dealing with the Marit Lage combo, lands has a multitude of ways of locking you out of mana with Ghost Quarter, Wasteland and Port. Whenever I have played against lands I have gotten choked on mana more times than I can count and the problem was always been them loaming back Ghost Quarter over and over. Many Lands players don't use Port anymore because GQ can destroy basics. I don't see how cutting color mana sources and bringing in Wastelands helps with this. Postboard you do have Life from the Loam but Lands can put multiple lands into play per turn or can destroy your two green sources. I don't think you can win that race if both you and your opponent are spending each turn returning lands from the graveyard.

    Additionally, there are very few matchups in which I would want to run Wasteland. Delver can function on very few lands and if they are destroying ours with Wasteland or Stifle then we need color sources for removal. Miracles runs so many basics that Wastes don't matter. Against Eldrazi we can sometimes stick them with threats in hand, but that situation is very dependent on what they draw.

    I just don't see any merit to this inclusion, but again, if you have data to back up your claims, please post it.

    Quote Originally Posted by HardBrain View Post

    CREATURES [15]:
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Baleful Strix
    3 Snapcaster Mage
    2 True-Name Nemesis
    2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

    2 Nemesis - yes, agains TWO NEMESIS. they are so broken that we cannot erase it from pool. It gives us best way to win with no danger. But describing TNN in Legacy is waste of time. It fits and im sure that he will stay in my Shaman-Strix etc Familly.
    I have run TNN instead of Leovold before and I know he can be a house against some match-ups. What I find problematic is the fact that you are going up on 3 mana color intensive creatures while going down on blue sources. TNN can't do anything if you lack the mana to cast him.


    Quote Originally Posted by HardBrain View Post
    SORCERIES [8]:
    4 Preordain - it can be dumb step for you guys but look: ponder sees 4 cards (3+1) but if you shuffle those 3 cards are still in drawOption. After Preordain we can peek a bit and decide. After scry to bottom we saw 3 cards (2+1) but we have 100% information that we will not draw those dead cards from bottom. Combine it with Brainstorm. We can BS and Send 2 dead cards down. its a step that you need to feel by your self before respons your opinion. I have spend a lot of games to admit it. ponder < preordain in this deck.
    2 Hymn To Tourach
    2 Thoughtseize
    This classic argument of Ponder vs. Preordain has been rehashed many times over in other threads. I don't want to get pulled into a debate but what it boils down to is, if you shuffle with a ponder, what is the percent that you will draw one of the cards you shuffled away. Most players agree that this chance is low enough that Ponder gets the nod but some disagree. For me personally there have been many times in which I have pondered in order to hit my second land drop and being able to see that 3rd card and shuffle it away mattered. But I am not a statistician and don't have the numbers to back me up so I won't bother trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by HardBrain View Post
    SIDEBOARD [15]:
    1 Flusterstorm
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Hydroblast
    1 Life from the loam - BROKEN! its sooooo good against WastelandDecks. especially shines vs D&T but still after SB we can crush opponent man abase by our Wasteland in mirror match. Still remember that we can dredge it and fulfill our grave.
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Dread of night
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Null Rod
    1 Pithing Needle
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Golgari Charm
    Loam could be an interesting SB option against Lands or D&T but I think that if I were to try and build a Czech Pile deck with a wasteland loam package, I would try to go up to 22 lands. The idea that you can switch 2 lands to colorless sources, put a Loam in your board and call it a day seems dubious but I try not to judge anyone without adequate proof. What does your testing data look like?
    mise 'miz v alter. of might as well (1997) 1: to win when you don't deserve to 2: to top-deck the "tings" you need 3: to be rewarded by an opponent's bad luck 4: to coin a phrase that spreads through the tournament scene like wildfire 5: to fling a monkey 6: to split firewood using a sharp instrument 7: To burn

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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by Misersoneof View Post
    I'm gonna try to go through these points one at a time.



    I would like to know how and with whom you have tested. To me this seems like you should have gotten the opposite result. Do you have data to back up this claim?

    While having Wasteland can be useful when dealing with the Marit Lage combo, lands has a multitude of ways of locking you out of mana with Ghost Quarter, Wasteland and Port. Whenever I have played against lands I have gotten choked on mana more times than I can count and the problem was always been them loaming back Ghost Quarter over and over. Many Lands players don't use Port anymore because GQ can destroy basics. I don't see how cutting color mana sources and bringing in Wastelands helps with this. Postboard you do have Life from the Loam but Lands can put multiple lands into play per turn or can destroy your two green sources. I don't think you can win that race if both you and your opponent are spending each turn returning lands from the graveyard.
    I'd love to be that data, as the Lands player who helped to test this build.

    I'd also love to see my every matchup with DRS control decks to go as you present them: to be able to combo off fast, secure boardstate with timely and unchallanged Wastelock and reccuring removal against DRS, having the time to deal with both duals and basics with wastelands,quarters and ports at the same time.

    Unfortunately, usually that's not the case. Usually I need to choose one of those plans when I see t1 DRS on the draw, and either my Exploration, Loam or Punishing Fire gets countered. Quarter is excellent when it works as trip mine, which means when my opponent don't play basics. When they do, I'm literally wasting my land into nothing, filtering the value of your draw and putting myself in need of recurring that Quarter under grave hate, counters and pressure, not to mention the unpleasant aspect of Leovold's protection.

    Still, my main gameplan against you will be fast combo or strong mana denial. Opposite wasteland is one of the biggest threats to both of those plans. I need to play around it's activation for another turn, untill I can put my own waste into play. I need to risk crop rotating or making the token mainphase, when it can be eaten by Jace. 4 Qarters builds are worse when they don't put ourselves in immediate advantage and with opponent having access to basics - they don't. It's just one more turn to get them back from grave, sure. If Loam won't get countered. And if they won't be eaten by DRS or Surgical. And if you don't have another basic. And if I do have an Exploration in play, cause trading 1 for 1 is paaainfully slow for me and I can't afford crawling like this for 5 turns while any opponent with brain will Brainstorm for 3rd land and play Nemezis or Leo. That's why I preffer split Quarter / Port build but that's of course just my personal prefference.

    To sum up the "wasteland" part, after playing the deck for over 3 years now, I bearly can name a single card that is more problematic to Lands than opposite Wasteland (well, maybe Blood Moon or DRS, which you can combine together in your deck). I can't argue for the whole metagame being vulnerable to this choice, yet after good 3 months of playing against HardBrain's deck I can assure you it's not easy for me to dispatch, nor it is clunky against other decks in our quite diversed meta

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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiktul View Post
    I'd love to be that data, as the Lands player who helped to test this build.

    I'd also love to see my every matchup with DRS control decks to go as you present them: to be able to combo off fast, secure boardstate with timely and unchallanged Wastelock and reccuring removal against DRS, having the time to deal with both duals and basics with wastelands,quarters and ports at the same time.

    Unfortunately, usually that's not the case. Usually I need to choose one of those plans when I see t1 DRS on the draw, and either my Exploration, Loam or Punishing Fire gets countered. Quarter is excellent when it works as trip mine, which means when my opponent don't play basics. When they do, I'm literally wasting my land into nothing, filtering the value of your draw and putting myself in need of recurring that Quarter under grave hate, counters and pressure, not to mention the unpleasant aspect of Leovold's protection.

    Still, my main gameplan against you will be fast combo or strong mana denial. Opposite wasteland is one of the biggest threats to both of those plans. I need to play around it's activation for another turn, untill I can put my own waste into play. I need to risk crop rotating or making the token mainphase, when it can be eaten by Jace. 4 Qarters builds are worse when they don't put ourselves in immediate advantage and with opponent having access to basics - they don't. It's just one more turn to get them back from grave, sure. If Loam won't get countered. And if they won't be eaten by DRS or Surgical. And if you don't have another basic. And if I do have an Exploration in play, cause trading 1 for 1 is paaainfully slow for me and I can't afford crawling like this for 5 turns while any opponent with brain will Brainstorm for 3rd land and play Nemezis or Leo. That's why I preffer split Quarter / Port build but that's of course just my personal prefference.

    To sum up the "wasteland" part, after playing the deck for over 3 years now, I bearly can name a single card that is more problematic to Lands than opposite Wasteland (well, maybe Blood Moon or DRS, which you can combine together in your deck). I can't argue for the whole metagame being vulnerable to this choice, yet after good 3 months of playing against HardBrain's deck I can assure you it's not easy for me to dispatch, nor it is clunky against other decks in our quite diversed meta
    Thanks for the input. I am always glad to get details on testing and I'd like to learn more about how wasteland can be used against a lands player. I can't be sure but I don't think I've played against Lands with Wasteland in my deck.

    Could either of you go into more detail about which lands should be targeted with wasteland or how it can be used to protect our lands in the matchup? Also, how often did being on the play effect your games?

    In my experience, having a T1 Deathrite against lands is pretty powerful but when he came down T2 he would usually end up PFired or Molten Vortex'd before I got any activations in. Then the burden was on me to find another Deathrite. I mention this because drawing a wasteland seems to be not very helpful in this situation. Does Wasteland lose value if you are on the draw?

    To add on to the above, Wiktul, you mention how you have to choose between either killing DRS or destroying lands. Often, my opponent would kill my DRS and then go after my lands. It was a gradual process to be sure but it locked me out quick enough and I wasn't able to cast anything bigger than a 1/1 Strix. How often is this strategy of destroying each of the opponent's lands just too slow?
    mise 'miz v alter. of might as well (1997) 1: to win when you don't deserve to 2: to top-deck the "tings" you need 3: to be rewarded by an opponent's bad luck 4: to coin a phrase that spreads through the tournament scene like wildfire 5: to fling a monkey 6: to split firewood using a sharp instrument 7: To burn

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