People have been doing it to success for over a year, so obviously yes.
But people have also just ran straight sultai colors like Jeremy Dezani did and got second @ GP Seattle in April. I think that if the meta shifts to really hate on 4 color- aka more chalice and blood moon decks, is there some merit to switching to a slightly less greedy mana base while also picking up wasteland ourselves to deal with decks that are running ancient tomb and city of traitors?Originally Posted by phg22
The format seems like it's turn into basically the "fair decks": 4 color and grixis delver, and the turn 1 chalice decks (dragon stompy, eldrazi, affinity). Many of the unfair combo decks aside from turbo depths are kind of on the outside looking in at the moment (sneak and show, reanimator, LED storm, etc.).
There are arguments on both sides. I prefer the red as I am also a DnT player and I know that the red version is a lot better (imo) against DnT and therefore is what I play. I hate losing to something I have an intimate knowledge of.
How does stoneblade defeat czech pile? What is czech pile's weakness?
All these "Grindy" MU come down to two things: Cardadvantage or unanswerble threats (TNN).
You think wastelands will help your Moon stompy MU? I highly doubt that.
Tbh I don't think moving to Grixis or Sultai wll improve your resillance against blood moon that much. It's the turn 1 or 3 Moons that get you, and all 3 Variants are bad against that. Removing a color is more for wasteland decks imo.
Keeping them off of 3 or 4 mana for even a single turn can be the difference between winning and losing. Obviously a turn 1 moon without FoW is probably going to be a loss regardless of what variant your on. But let's assume we have force for their turn 1 moon and we wasteland their city of traitors or ancient tomb. Oftentimes this will keep them off of their threats for a couple of turns, allowing us to set up our turns, maybe cast a hymn to tourach or thoughtseize, etc.. I just have seen more and more people trimming bolts and k commands recently- I saw a list that 5-0'd that had literally 2 k command and 1 bolt. At this point, I'm thinking, why bother with red? Is it really that much more worth it to open ourselves up to wasteland while not being able to play it ourselves. Yes k command is a grindy element of the deck and can be a 2 for 1, but dropping 2 slots for something like another abrupt decay or a single liliana, the last hope doesn't really seem that bad at all if our deck's mana gets tightened up a little bit. A lot of the sultai decks run TNN- but you could even drop these cards (if you're worried about people sb teching marsh casualties, deluge, or edict) for a toxic deluge and a card like a singleton tireless tracker as another card advantage engine (DRS ramping into a tireless tracker to get 2 clues is gas). A lot more 12 post lists are popping up online because people recognize that it dookies on 4 color control- wasteland shines in this matchup as well.
Basically my point is you're sacrificing relatively minimal power to make the deck slightly cleaner going sultai. I ported to legacy pretty recently from modern, and things seem more stagnant here- 4 color is great, it puts up great results and I can't deny it's a great deck, but I do question things when people just netdeck and use boiler plate lists vs. test on their own and actually figure out what is best vs. an entire format that is adapting to beat them (aka lots of chalice and blood moon). 4 color has made itself known and people are out to beat it now. I know that Andrea Mengucci, for instance, prefers straight sultai leovold compared to 4 color for a lot of the reasons I mentioned above. Dezani, one of Mengucci's friends, took his advice and put up a solid result at one of the largest legacy events of the year, yet people don't talk about this deck at all.
While I’m not saying your conclusion of BUG vs. 4c is incorrect, because most evidence at this point is likely anecdotal from either side, I don’t think you’re looking at the deck holistically enough. Specifically, red offers blasts, and missing out on those by playing BUG is a real downside, whether that’s enough of a reason to choose 4c over BUG is a real discussion, but I don’t think the answer is clear at this point.
4 Color has been a better performer overall than BUG. The newer versions of 4 Color with 5 one mana removal spells and 3 Kommand are just so much more efficient than Sultai is.
^ This, the Lightning Bolts are versatile acting as more removal and rarely a slightly faster clock. The access to Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast also can't be understated. Also, Kolaghan's Command is a hell of a card and sometimes does work against moon decks. :-)
I've been looking at eliminating a color from Czech Pile for a while now in order to run more basics for the recent blood moon heavy meta. From what I've learned, green has access to more efficient threats but less efficient removal. Red on the other hand has very efficient removal but it's threats aren't.
The cards that green gives Pile access to are Leovold, Abrupt Decay, Sylvan Library and (most recently) Goyf. These permanents are cheap, powerful and require an answer from the opponent. Abrupt Decay is good at answering a lot of popular permanents (including those just mentioned) and has the added benefit of being uncountable. But it's drawback is that it cannot hit anything over 3 cmc, it requires 2 mana to cast and is color intensive. This makes it powerful but very inefficient. Maelstrom Pulse also has the same problem in that it is mana intensive and color intensive. What you gain in the ability to target ANY nonland permanent, you lose in being able to be countered. Rarely will it hit 2 permanents.
Red removal on the other hand is incredibly efficient. As mentioned above, Red provides us with Bolt, K Command and Pyroblast/REB. Bolt is probably the strongest removal spell ever printed and its continued use in pretty much every eternal format out there is a testament to it. It kills creatures, planeswalkers and players alike and does so for 1 single mana. K Command is also mana and color intensive, but it's incredibly flexible. It's almost always a 2 for 1 and functions as removal, card advantage and is powerful in a top deck war. Pyroblasts/REBs are also efficient but are extremely situational. They can act as removal or counter for single mana but only if you are playing against a Blue Mage, which is why they tend to be strictly sideboard material.
I'm not going to go into red's permanents here because we all know that this deck doesn't run any and this post is already too long.
The last thing to think about is what kind of deck you are trying to make. Czech Pile is a control deck, which means that above all else, it wants to run answers to problems, not threats that need to be answered. This is why the archetypes are typically called "Grixis Control" and "Sultai Midrange".
mise 'miz v alter. of might as well (1997) 1: to win when you don't deserve to 2: to top-deck the "tings" you need 3: to be rewarded by an opponent's bad luck 4: to coin a phrase that spreads through the tournament scene like wildfire 5: to fling a monkey 6: to split firewood using a sharp instrument 7: To burn
I saw a list that used 2x Goblin Rabblemasters, has anyone else tried that? I don't like the Goyf option to be completely honest. I own them, but I dislike them in this deck.
I'm not interested in dropping red.
You will never cut green from 4C because you need one green dual for DRS anyway, so we are talking about forfeiting the use of incredibly powerful cards like Leovold, Decay, Sylvan, G.Charm for cutting one dual? The opportunity cost for running that additional dual is close to zero. If you want to play the grixis colors you should go into the y.pyro+therapy deck, but that is just a worse version of grixis delver imo.
You can cut red, thats why you see bug control with at least a little success. You can replace everything but Blasts, but you loose some efficiency. You get more basics and the ability to run wastelands which help some MUs (Lands, Depths, etc)
If you were responding to me, you are mistaken, as I don't want to drop green. I think all 4 colors are absolutely necessary.
No I was just explaining why cutting green from 4C isn't worth thinking about unless you make a totally different deck.
Cutting Red is possible on the other hand but I agree that playing 4C is better overall
Maybe you are referring to me?
Currently I have been 'cutting green' by getting rid of all of the cards that can only be cast with green mana. I still run a trop in order for deathrite activations but I have been considering cutting it. The deck that I have been working on looks like this:
Land (19)
1x Badlands
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Swamp
1x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
Sorcery (9)
3x Hymn to Tourach
4x Preordain
2x Thoughtseize
Instant (16)
4x Brainstorm
1x Dead // Gone
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Fatal Push
4x Force of Will
2x Kolaghan's Command
2x Lightning Bolt
Creature (13)
4x Baleful Strix
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x True-Name Nemesis
Planeswalker (3)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
Sideboard (14)
3x Blood Moon
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x By Force
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2x Flusterstorm
1x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Toxic Deluge
The point of it is to take the Baleful Strix, K Command, Hymn shell of Pile and eliminate the "Green Cards" in order to have a more stable manabase for Blood Moon in the side while keeping the amount of 1 drops low for chalice. While I haven't been doing extensive testing against delver, I have been testing it against Mono Red Stompy and Eldrazi decks and it has been doing fairly well.
The "Young Pyromancer Cabal Therapy" list that you may be referring to is a deck championed by Wilson Hunter of The Brainstorm Show podcast fame. This is indeed a different deck from Pile as his game plan is different. His deck looks like this:
Land (18)
1x Badlands
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Island
1x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Swamp
1x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
Planeswalker (1)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Instant (17)
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Fatal Push
4x Force of Will
1x Kolaghan's Command
3x Lightning Bolt
Sorcery (13)
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
2x Thoughtseize
Creature (11)
4x Deathrite Shaman
2x Gurmag Angler
2x Snapcaster Mage
3x Young Pyromancer
Sideboard (15)
3x Blood Moon
1x Cabal Therapy
2x Collective Brutality
2x Dead // Gone
2x Pyroblast
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Toxic Deluge
Source
While I have been testing this deck too, some things I don't like about it are the basic mountain over the second swamp, the fact that he runs Dead // Gone in his SB instead of main and the fact that he is really 1 drop heavy which can't survive with Chalice on 1. Despite my feelings on the deck, he has been putting up some strong results with it as he Top 16'd at a recent GP. The bottom line however is that this deck is a control deck.
Rabblemaster is an interesting choice. He is an army in a can but I don't like the idea that if your opponent has a deathrite your token dies anyway. I have been playing with the idea of running Young Pyromancers in my build instead of the TNN but with the lack of 1 drops, I don't think my deck can take full advantage of the token production.
mise 'miz v alter. of might as well (1997) 1: to win when you don't deserve to 2: to top-deck the "tings" you need 3: to be rewarded by an opponent's bad luck 4: to coin a phrase that spreads through the tournament scene like wildfire 5: to fling a monkey 6: to split firewood using a sharp instrument 7: To burn
Young Pyromancer is not a card I like in this shell, either. I think if I wanted to play with it I would just play Grixis Delver or something Mardu. I don't know if I agree with your single point summary of Rabblemaster, as opposing DRS are an issue anyway, and I try to deal with them as soon as I get the opportunity. I'm more concerned about room and how it differs in use from TNN, and whether or not it fills a need and if that is really better than what TNN does. I only play 12 creatures and really need a good argument to make me want to change it. The reason I am interested in this is because once in a while, another win condition would help, but it has to be good enough.
Edit: I really wish Squee, the Immortal wasn't 1(r)(r)...
Have you tried Gurmag Angler? He's pretty solid as a finisher, especially on a lower creature count, where I assume you have more spells than the average list.
In regards to the Wasteland argument, I've been considering cutting a fetch for a singleton -- has anyone experimented with this? Not sure if it's the right call but this deck is all about utility and I find I utilize my 1-ofs (AD, Toxic Deluge, LotLH, etc) reasonably well. I dont think I could cut any basics, they've been so valuable against PoP and Wasteland decks but there's been a number of times that I'd have loved to have a even a single Wasteland to cut off a mana source or to take down a Dark Depths. The deck is too mana intensive to run many (any?) colorless land but I feel it might be something worth considering.
Hmm. I have not. I'm not sure why not, maybe I should.
BBD played a third Jace, any opinions on that? I don't think I want to but it was something I haven't heard of others really trying.
I have not tried the 3rd Jace but I think if I was adding another planeswalker to the MD, it would be a Liliana, the Last Hope over a 3rd Jace. Jace IS awesome, he wins a lot of games but having 2 in your opening hand feels bad... at the same time, it's hard to argue with the results.
What I find interesting is how many people are taking out Thoughtseize altogether, it's a little puzzling to me as it's always been a card I've really liked. Im trying to cut them all now and see how it plays out, I definitely feel Hymn is a better card in this deck since you want to 2 for 1 as much as possible. My suspicion is that having thoughtseize as a singleton is pretty weak because you really want it in your opener compared to late game (usually) and it's generally a very bad top deck (again, usually) - so perhaps cutting them all for other gas is the better approach.
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