I know he dodged the axe this time but if DRS does end up getting banned how does Pile fair? I’m interested in the deck and only need a JTMS and a Badlands to finish it. I’d really like to play something that’s 50/50 vs most decks in the format.
Terribly. I doubt it would be playable.
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Really?Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Without Shaman, 4 colors simply isn't reasonable. It's likely a similar list would continue to see play without green.
It's generally understood that if Shaman were to get banned that Czech Pile would no longer exist. Pile uses 4 colors interchangeably and has access to cards like Baleful Strix, Hymn to Tourach, Kolaghan's Command, Abrupt Decay, Marsh Casualties and Counterspell which are all color intensive. Shaman helps us to cast these cards. Even when he gets removed he acts as a lightning rod for our opponent to focus their efforts instead of wastelanding us or countering our spells.
If you take him out of the format then Czech Pile becomes too slow or precarious too play. Players would most likely split camps. Some would go into Grixis Control, others into BUG Midrange, and the rest would play whatever delver variant still stands. (Assuming that they don't have some other deck to play)
EDIT Card Tags
mise 'miz v alter. of might as well (1997) 1: to win when you don't deserve to 2: to top-deck the "tings" you need 3: to be rewarded by an opponent's bad luck 4: to coin a phrase that spreads through the tournament scene like wildfire 5: to fling a monkey 6: to split firewood using a sharp instrument 7: To burn
Shouldn't we get an updated primer right now?
Many list are now basically grixis, playing no decay, but is it really safe?
edict is now a must have, probably due the presence of depths other than all the others threat (nemesis/angler/eldrazi) which still isn't an easy match up.
the new update on the pw damage rule & the presence of much more beb in the sideboards should make Chandra, torch of defiance a less desiderabile choice, thoughts on this? I've seen more lists running two Liliana in the board, seems good since are harder to deal with.
Miracle is slight more present and I still belive is a even or slight worse match up, some tips will be good.
Br reanimator is a terrible match up with only two surgical in my opinion, same as dredge.
Moon stompy can be harsh, t1 moon or sun almost tilts you out of the game and even if you held that at Bay you still have to face 6/7 more pw, luckily they don't really filter or draw much since we have kolaghan to answer their bottled cloystred/trinisphere/chalices, but pw are hard to hold if you don't pick blue elemental blast in the board
I can't believe miracle is a bad matchup. This deck was orginated as s deck that could fight miracle even during the top era. As long as you run sweepers, rebs and bolts you should be favoured.
It's matchup that a bad player will always lose. I've played from both side and lost once. I think on the whole Miracles is favored from that experience. Their haymakers are more problematic for us (Mentor and nonbasic hate, counterbalance stealing games). Leovold also steals games for Czech, and sticking a Jace is good for both sides. It's close, but probably tilted towards miracles.
What do you guys think of bitterblossom as a sideboard card? Seems like it excels in the mirror, miracles, turbo depths and lands deck. I am trying out one copy in the side, will update you guys on its efficacy.
The primer has needed an update for a while and I would love to work on it but I don't have the time that such a job requires. If someone else is interested on working on it, I'd be happy to do some editing or give my input as I have been looking at this deck for a long time now.
I currently run 1 main decay and 1 in the board and I would never consider cutting both of them. It is a clean answer against opposing enchantments and PWs and the only downside is that it is mana intensive.
I think that the biggest issue with the miracles matchup is knowing what your opponent is playing. Miracles currently has around 3-4 different iterations with mentor versus entreat and Counterbalance versus Back to Basics. Even once you've established that your opponent is on miracles, you still can't be sure which threat or lock piece they might try to drop which makes knowing what to search for more difficult.
The best metric for how you are doing is hand size. If you have more cards in hand then they do then you are probably winning. Your best card against them is hymn and you should try to use it as much as possible. Snapping back hymns or cantrips to stay ahead on cards is always a good idea. If they counter back then let it go. Save your counters for their haymakers or lock pieces that you don't have an answer for.
This may be a bad idea but postboard it might be right to keep in some number of FOW. Because Miracles has been eclectic lately they could bring anything from additional copies of their main deck haymakers to things like Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and From the Ashes/Ruination. These are must answer threats and we need a counter for them.
I cannot comment on Bitterblossom's efficacy against lands and turbo depths but I have seen it across the table from me a couple of times and each time I've seen it as being "on my team". The slow drain of life means that the opponent has put themselves on a clock and rather than a slow game that can go back and forth, they now have a time limit. Because of this my game plan usually becomes either "outlast the clock" or "burn them out".
What worries me about using it against control decks though is that it is a slow engine and it can be mitigated with a well timed wrath. Doing some simple math, you don't see any advantage from it until Turn 5 when you finally manage to get up on life. This is of course assuming you are swinging with the tokens each time and none of them get removed. Please let us know how your testing goes though.
edit I can't English
mise 'miz v alter. of might as well (1997) 1: to win when you don't deserve to 2: to top-deck the "tings" you need 3: to be rewarded by an opponent's bad luck 4: to coin a phrase that spreads through the tournament scene like wildfire 5: to fling a monkey 6: to split firewood using a sharp instrument 7: To burn
I went 5-2 in the legacy open this weekend before my team died with this board. Wins against D&T, B/R reanimator, Grixis Delver, B/G Depths, ANT. Losses to elves (just couldn't find removal) and Shardless in turn 5 of turns.
This was my board:
1 Bitterblossom
1 Blood Sun
1 Chandra, Torch of defiance
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Hydroblast
1 Liliana The Last Hope
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
I find Bitterblossom amazing in the lands and turbo depths matchups as well as very strong against miracles and reasonable against some other grindy decks. I like that it both protects you from the 20/20 while putting your opponent on a faster clock for little cost. When my opponent is gonna kill me by swing for 20 it hardly matters what life total I'm at and forcing my opp to draw enough outs to beat bitterblossom and the rest of my deck fast enough feels really strong.
The well timed wrath in miracles is good, but that's assuming we arent applying any other pressure than faerie tokens. If they have to wrath my 3 tokens and a deathrite and i untap and slam a leovold while the tokens keep pumping out, it burns through their resources quickly and forces them to have the board wipe repeatedly.
Right now I'm considering adding 2 wasteland to the main and a loam in the side for the depths matchup since it seems to be on the upswing along with lands, miracles, and delver constantly in top 8. Considering cutting Chandra for the Loam as I think she might be a little too narrow and hard to cast or maybe blood sun, but I'd still rather have blood sun than loam against lands.
Played 4c tonight at our local store, such a great crowd legacy folks are <3. I ended up going 1-1-1, beating Burn (no typo), losing to Nic Fit and drawing against the mirror. The Nic Fit match ended with him winning turn 5, so was quite close; he literally top decked like a champ, while I brainstorm'ed into lands... it happens
I tested out the second Badlands over the second Volcanic and really wasn't a fan. Going to switch back to the original/more standard configuration for next week.
I'm going to work a 3rd surgical into the SB, interested in maybe trying out Bitterblossom after reading Chhaam's comments as I find Turbo Depths and Lands both hard matchups. Seems like a good card against their 20/20 shenanigans, though I don't know if I'd board it in against anything else (sans Miracles maybe)...
What does everyone think of the new lists running Preordain over Ponder? Seems like an interesting choice, I've never tested it personally but it's putting up results.
I've been trying preordain over ponder. It's been fine. It takes a little getting used to, but I don't think I have lost a game because of it.
You can read the reasoning behind it here, towards the bottom of the article on the first page. The general idea has been that preordain helps you smooth out the early game and since you already have a very strong late game you're essentially trading off some late game digging power for early game consistency. I've tried both ponder and preordain versions of the deck and they've both been fine. In my honest opinion past the 4 brainstorms, it actually doesn't matter what other cantrips you are running.
Excellent, thank you kindly for the link! Always love to read new stuff for legacy.
Given the uptick in moon stompy and turbo depths, how can we adapt to it?
Would playing abrupt decay and thoughtseize in the main help against these decks? Most decks recently are not playing thoughtseize and decay anymore.
One interesting list is BBD’s list at GP Toronto. He plays 3 goyf in the side. I guess it’s good against grixis, stompy and combo decks
I don't actually think that either of those 2 matchups is that bad. I'd say moon is the worse one since you can very much be hosed by a turn 1 blood moon, and then run into these awkward states where you need to counter multiple things but don't have a blue card to pitch to FoW. For depths i'd recommend adding some number of edict effects, and for dragon stompy i'd recommend some number of blue blasts/hydroblasts in the side with a decay or 2 in the main and praying that you get a turn to fetch -> swamp -> DRS. I think that people cut thoughtseize because the mtgo metagame is very fair, but I think it's still very powerful against miracles and the mirror.
I play 1 TS and 1 Decay main with a TS in the board. I also play 1-2 blue blasts in the board.
I highly disagree with your statement that Goyf seems good against Grixis. Their Pushes and Y. Peezy make him pretty useless, he can't block delver, he is almost always smaller than an Angler. Bad.
Agree with all this, not sure why Goyf would be good against Grixis but certainly a quick clock against combo and can block a lot of high end creatures in most stompy lists.
I keep fluctuating between 1-2 TS main (moving the second to the SB), I just love the card but the life loss is surprisingly relevant and it's rarely a good top deck late. There's a good bit of combo played in my area though (and sadly, a bit of burn /shudder)... I just have the one decay main (none SB) and as much as I find it meh a lot of the time, being uncountable is sometimes very useful and I always want a least SOME way out of blood moon or other various lock pieces. You don't always have that force of will when you need it and having a way out can make or break a game one. I actually play 2 blasts in the board now, because moon decks have become so much more popular and they do double duty against any burn decks I come across (in place of the TS's). It's probably correct to play one TS and 3 Hymns, rather than the 2-2 split, something I may end up going with in the next event.
On another note, is anyone else playing LotLH in the MB?
I do. It's been fine locally.
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