[Deck] Czech Pile

[Misersoneof]

I sympathise with your feelings on Squee. Having a win con that doesn't care about being exiled or killed is incredibly valuable but (r) (r) would require a reassessment of the mana base.

As a former Miracles player, my problem with the 3rd Jace in this deck is the lack of basics. Miracles can comfortably develop mana without fear of wasteland and drop Jace T4 or T5. But if our opponent has a wasteland heavy hand or drops an early blood moon, he becomes just another dead card for pile. The only time in which we want to have 3 Jaces is when we are facing against miracles. For any other deck his only role is to pull ahead if we've managed to stabilise the board or force food.

I feel that Gurmag might be the best option of the recent cards discussed here but only if you are looking at an extremely aggro meta. He's cheap, doesn't die to most forms of removal and can end a game if you can keep your opponent locked down. However he's not very good against Miracles or the mirror. Strix can keep him stymied and swords is bad.

[NegatorITA]

why people play dead // gone when there is far // away assuming it's used to deal with marit lage?I get that far deals two damage to DRS and delver, yet far away pitch to force, in late can be fused and deals with marith lage more efficently
Guess it's the ability to act as pseudo bolt that guarantee its inclusion, but I'm not sold over it.

[Misersoneof]

why people play dead // gone when there is far // away assuming it's used to deal with marit lage?I get that far deals two damage to DRS and delver, yet far away pitch to force, in late can be fused and deals with marith lage more efficently
Guess it's the ability to act as pseudo bolt that guarantee its inclusion, but I'm not sold over it.

You raise an interesting point. I have been trying to find a removal spell that answers Marit Lage, is useful against Delver decks and can get around a chalice on 1. Compared to dead gone, it seems better against blood moon decks and the multiple modes all seem relevant against Marit Lage. Even though it doesn't cleanly answer Deathrite or Young Pyromancer with a couple of tokens, if it resolves against a delver deck it could set them back on Tempo long enough to make it to the end game.

[NegatorITA]

You raise an interesting point. I have been trying to find a removal spell that answers Marit Lage, is useful against Delver decks and can get around a chalice on 1. Compared to dead gone, it seems better against blood moon decks and the multiple modes all seem relevant against Marit Lage. Even though it doesn't cleanly answer Deathrite or Young Pyromancer with a couple of tokens, if it resolves against a delver deck it could set them back on Tempo long enough to make it to the end game.

I also think that there are different approach to the deck:
I keep seing these list without TS, but these cleary seems tuned toward a metagame where there is not much combo:
my tes buddy can ramp over me with these list, but, magic
I switched two cards with two thoughtseize, and last night I was winning like 8 match over 10 (mind you, I always had good to decent hands, but, these cards do make the difference)
Now, in my local meta there isn't any marit lage, but there are a few in the milan metagame I'm going to swim into the incoming week.
There are also miracle, grixis control, moon stompy, eldrazi, BIG eldrazi and some BR, surely there will be some show and tell, some grixis delver (or maybe, actually MORE) some bug control for sure and bug delver as well:
A true open field on the level of a SCG open or classic or whatever you have.
So I'm pretty thorn atm about what to run, considering that there is going to be some quite number of GY based deck, I won't leave home without 3 surgicals.

My current list will look as the following:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest


4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to tourach

4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain

2 Fatal Push
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Toxic deluge

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 bloodstained mire
3 Scalding Tarn


SideboarD
1 hydroblast
1 blue elemental blast
1 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
2 flusterstorm
3 surgical extraction
2 diabolic edict
1 golgari charm
1 abrupt decay
1 liliana, the last hope
1 toxic deluge



I wonder if in such an open meta would be wiser to move the lili main deck over one toxic deluge.
Also would like to fin it a third edict (or another solution of the mentioned before) but I can't see myself cutting anything if not again one thoughtseize (or maybe the lone decay)
decay & golgari charm though help vs the random food chains (which aren't really so random here), and are really two marvelous catch all that cutting them seems so wrong.
Another solution COULD be to cut one kolaghan for a decay maindeck, and voilà, we have the third edict.
But maybe I should focus more into gaining an extra edge AGAIN vs miracle rather than fixing an already difficult match up? (I still belive depths to be a not so easy deck to handle, if they are fast or go big there isn't much we can do)

[phg22]

I see Dead / Gone as a bolt that kills Marit Lage. While the ability to kill the 20/20 is important, making out deck worse overall to do so is not advisable. Since we care very little about the face damage and most creatures that die to bolt also die to shock, Dead / Gone is a clean answer to Lage that's still very efficient when I just want to 1 for 1 removal everything.

[Misersoneof]

I see Dead / Gone as a bolt that kills Marit Lage. While the ability to kill the 20/20 is important, making out deck worse overall to do so is not advisable. Since we care very little about the face damage and most creatures that die to bolt also die to shock, Dead / Gone is a clean answer to Lage that's still very efficient when I just want to 1 for 1 removal everything.

I'm trying to understand the intent of this comment. Are you saying that running Dead // Gone is making the deck worse overall or is this a comment on some of the above alternatives like Far // Away? Tomorrow I am going to a local Legacy Tournament and I am thinking about cutting one of my two bolts for a Dead // Gone in addition to running an Engineered Explosives somewhere in my 75 as a catch all removal and or sweeper.

[beta]

Been playing miracles quite a lot in my LGS of late and have been losing quite a lot of times as well. What is the generic gameplan we have against them? It seems that our creatures are usually too slow and gets mopped up by their removals. Once they land counterbalance, it is hard to navigate around it (or maybe i am not experienced enough). Command seems lacklustre against them as our creatures will usually get removed or tugged. The way we can win is to hymn and land a jace it seems.

[phg22]

My point is that, while killing Marit Lage is important, we shouldn't be playing cards like Far / Away that are often really bad to do so. Edict is good because is covers TNN and Angler, so without Lage in the format we might still be playing it. Dead / Gone is going to do what Bolt does > 90% of the time anyway, so swapping one in is another reasonable way to cover against Lage.

[Misersoneof]

I see what you're saying now. I agree with your assessment that Dead // Gone is probably the best tool since it swaps well for bolt but still answers Marit Lage. The only think I don't like about it is the fact that it doesn't really do anything against chalice decks except set them back a turn. This is why I've been looking at two mana removal spells that can fill all 3 roles but there doesn't really seem to be one.

Regarding Miracles, I played against it once in the tournament on Saturday and again (different build) in casuals afterwards with my Grixis Control list. I was able to win a majority of games despite not having access to Abrupt DK or Leovold. My basic plan was to keep a creature in play and continually chip away at their life total while also attacking their hand as much as possible.

Post board I took out 4 strix, 1 fatal push (2 if they played angels) and 1 edict and brought in 3 REB, 2 Flusterstorm and 1 extra Lilly TLH. Perhaps instead of the 4 strix, I should've boarded out my 2 Thoughtseize and or my 3 K Commands but my goal with this configuration was rip apart their hand so they couldn't cast or find their answers. This plan seemed to work and despite my opponent having counterbalance or Back to Basics in play, I was able to make those cards irrelevant while they desperately searched for ways to answer my Shamans and snapcasters.

I'll do a write up of the tournament if people are interested but my list is a little different from standard Czech Pile.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Is new flip-Bolas too cute? I know, it's too cute. But I think I'm going to try it.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I see what you're saying now. I agree with your assessment that Dead // Gone is probably the best tool since it swaps well for bolt but still answers Marit Lage. The only think I don't like about it is the fact that it doesn't really do anything against chalice decks except set them back a turn. This is why I've been looking at two mana removal spells that can fill all 3 roles but there doesn't really seem to be one.

Regarding Miracles, I played against it once in the tournament on Saturday and again (different build) in casuals afterwards with my Grixis Control list. I was able to win a majority of games despite not having access to Abrupt DK or Leovold. My basic plan was to keep a creature in play and continually chip away at their life total while also attacking their hand as much as possible.

Post board I took out 4 strix, 1 fatal push (2 if they played angels) and 1 edict and brought in 3 REB, 2 Flusterstorm and 1 extra Lilly TLH. Perhaps instead of the 4 strix, I should've boarded out my 2 Thoughtseize and or my 3 K Commands but my goal with this configuration was rip apart their hand so they couldn't cast or find their answers. This plan seemed to work and despite my opponent having counterbalance or Back to Basics in play, I was able to make those cards irrelevant while they desperately searched for ways to answer my Shamans and snapcasters.

I'll do a write up of the tournament if people are interested but my list is a little different from standard Czech Pile.

Just post your list with it to give us context. Would love to read a report. I didn't get to go and I'd love to get an updated feel for the metagame. I've been busy and just can't make an event this year.

Edit: sorry for the double-post

[Misersoneof]

EDIT: So I guess I should've mentioned that this was a local I played in near me. I didn't mean to mislead anyone into thinking that I played at the GP or something. Sorry if that's the case.

My list:

Land (19)
1x Badlands
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Swamp
1x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island

Creature (13)
4x Baleful Strix
4x Deathrite Shaman
2x Gurmag Angler
3x Snapcaster Mage

Instant (16)
4x Brainstorm
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Fatal Push
4x Force of Will
3x Kolaghan's Command
2x Lightning Bolt

Sorcery (9)
2x Hymn to Tourach
4x Preordain
2x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge

Planeswalker (3)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Liliana, the Last Hope

Sideboard (15)
2x Blood Moon
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x By Force
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Flusterstorm
1x Hydroblast
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction


I went into the tournament knowing that I would probably play against bloodmoon stompy, reanimator and miracles so I tuned my board by dropping a hymn for a 3rd K Command and 2 lightning bolt instead of the 1 bolt 1 Dead // Gone split. Turns out I was 100% right.

Round 1 Miracles:
I win the roll and started aggressively with thoughtseize, into thoughtseize deathrite, into snapcaster thoughtseize. By discarding his enablers I was able to keep him from searching for removal. He landed a back to basics but I had some basics in play so I ignored it. I kept attacking and draining and he died.

Game two he landed a counter balance but I already had a deathrite and it has a tough time countering KCommand. I used 2 Commands to burn him and discard and draining whatever he discarded. His balance didn’t counter anything and he died.

Round 2 BR Reanimator

I forgot that this guy's only deck is reanimator. I lose the roll and keep a hand with only 1 deathrite. He announces a chancellor trigger so I lay a land and pass the turn. He combos off and gets a griselbrand into play. He draws 7 but can’t continue so he discards to hand size (none of which were creatures). I see if I can rip an edict which I don’t. I lay second land and cast strix, he takes a moment to remember his trigger and when he does I then scoop em up.

Game 2 was a grind fest.
My T1 deathrite keeps the yard nice and tidy while I drain him for two every turn. Shaman eventually eats a collective brut (pitching Norn) but I have edict, deluge, Force and two strix in play so it’s fine. He takes the force and reanimates Norn going to eight life. I realise he just 2 for 1'd me but I deluge her away. He then proceeds to cast exhume and I let it resolve, draw off the strix trigger which dies to Norn's ability and draw more countermagic. I edict his Norn and then rip angler off the top who wins in 2 turns.
Game 3 I keep a hand with no blue sources but spellbomb and deathrite. It also had a force but no blue card. I scry a blue card to the top. He T1s me by putting in Norn. I kill her but I’m at 1 life and he collective brutality’s for the win. Maybe I shouldn’t have kept that hand but it seemed solid at the time.

Round 3 Moon Stompy

Been waiting for this matchup. I win the roll and keep a solid 7 with 2 basics, deathrite and k command. I drop deathrite and he casts T1 3ball. I proceed to fetch up more basics and pressure him with deathrite and T3 hymn. Eventually I get Lilly and Jace in play and I just plus them both to their ultimates for the win.

Game 2 I keep a normal 6 with a basic or two but a lot of 1 drops. He proceeds to T1 3 ball, T2 chalice, T3 rabblemaster and T4 scab clan beserker. He runs my ass over.

Game 3 is a long one. I keep a Thoughtseize, basic swamp, fetch, Deathrite, Bolt, Ponder and Brainstorm. I TS him and see chalice, 3 ball, spyglass, rabblemaster and 2 mountain. I take rabblemaster and ready myself for the grind. In retrospect, I think I should have taken chalice. That was the biggest problem during the game. He doesn’t get the sol land but gets a second mountain. He drops chalice T2 but I’ve got the deathrite into play. He drops all of the other lock pieces and we play draw go for a while. Eventually he gets a second rabblemaster and I only have the bolt. I decide to go for it anyway and bolt the rabblemaster during his main (paying 3 mana). He picks up the goblin and places it in the yard before remembering the trigger. I offer to let him take it back but he says it’s fine. He knows the rules of a tournament. We then draw go for a while more. He then lands a chandra and my only option is to keep her in check with by attacking with a strix and a deathrite. He kills one of them and we are at a standstill. I rip gurmag and can play him while keeping force mana up (for 3 ball). He chumps the fish with a Magus of the moon next turn and next turn gets a rabble master which I force. He plusses Chandra and gets a bridge. I rip and drop a second angler and pray to top a kCommand. He gets another bridge and I know I only have one out. I tap the deck and peel my singleton By Force. I blow up everything except the spyglass and then swing at Chandra. She dies and he knows it’s over. He extends the hand after another draw phase.

After the tournament I did some testing with a different Miracles player (as I mentioned above). The games were much longer than the one in the tournament but my take away is that I would prefer the second lilly in the board to be a Chandra. Lilly is tough for miracles to deal with but her +1 and -2 doesn't do anything against them. I'd much rather be drawing a card or shocking their face. 2 bolts are definitely better than the 1 bolt, 1 dead // gone split against miracles since bolts can take care of Jace. I probably should have done something to mark the bolt that should have been a dead // gone to more thoroughly test the hypothesis.


On a slightly different note, I have been currently thinking about replacing the last bolt with a sudden shock. The reasoning is that it is 2 mana, which means it doesn't care about chalice, it can hit planeswalkers, it's uncounterable and it also can make sure that your opponent's deathrite can't activate in response.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

EDIT: So I guess I should've mentioned that this was a local I played in near me. I didn't mean to mislead anyone into thinking that I played at the GP or something. Sorry if that's the case.

You didn't, I simply failed to read the post well. My mistake. NBD.

[NegatorITA]

So, Tomas Mar did it again
http://www.ovinotournament.com/ovino...-b107ea74-8fb6
while I like the maindeck, I still can't realize what's the plan vs BR with that kind of sideboard...

[Misersoneof]

So, Tomas Mar did it again
http://www.ovinotournament.com/ovino...-b107ea74-8fb6
while I like the maindeck, I still can't realize what's the plan vs BR with that kind of sideboard...

I don't suppose there is a recording of the Top 8 out there? I'd love to see the finals at least. Anyone have a link?

[mike1987]

So, Tomas Mar did it again
http://www.ovinotournament.com/ovino...-b107ea74-8fb6
while I like the maindeck, I still can't realize what's the plan vs BR with that kind of sideboard...

Thanks for the link. Wish Tomas has an account here so we can bombard him with card and sideboard choices

I think the main changes to the deck are the basic lands and the playing of just 3 ponders

While Tomas is well known for his choice of playing many turn 1 discards, wouldnt it be a terrible top deck from mid-late game, would love to hear you guys' opinions of this as i am just currently playing 3 hymns. And will you board out those turn one discards vs chalice decks?

[Misersoneof]

Thanks for the link. Wish Tomas has an account here so we can bombard him with card and sideboard choices

I think the main changes to the deck are the basic lands and the playing of just 3 ponders

While Tomas is well known for his choice of playing many turn 1 discards, wouldnt it be a terrible top deck from mid-late game, would love to hear you guys' opinions of this as i am just currently playing 3 hymns. And will you board out those turn one discards vs chalice decks?

Does he not normally play an island and a swamp?

My discard package is currently 2 hymn and 2 thoughtseize. Personally I think I could get on board with his discard package. I have had a lot of games where going Turn 1 thoughtseize has kept my 1 drops live. At this stage of the game, I almost always want to see them and I think having Inquisition over TS might be a reasonable switch. My main question is, how useful is the 3rd hymn? I know it's good in a lot of control mirrors but I have a hard time thinking it's worth the slot against stompy or delver. Delver will often times counter it when it's live and stompy only plays things sorcery speed so rarely is it backbreaking.

I could see myself going up on 1 drop discards but I'm not to sure about a 3rd hymn and I definitely don't like going down on ponders.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

Does he not normally play an island and a swamp?

He was actually playing full duals for a while, if I'm not mistaken.

My discard package is currently 2 hymn and 2 thoughtseize. Personally I think I could get on board with his discard package. I have had a lot of games where going Turn 1 thoughtseize has kept my 1 drops live. At this stage of the game, I almost always want to see them and I think having Inquisition over TS might be a reasonable switch. My main question is, how useful is the 3rd hymn? I know it's good in a lot of control mirrors but I have a hard time thinking it's worth the slot against stompy or delver. Delver will often times counter it when it's live and stompy only plays things sorcery speed so rarely is it backbreaking.

I could see myself going up on 1 drop discards but I'm not to sure about a 3rd hymn and I definitely don't like going down on ponders.

I think 3 Hymn is a sweet, sweet spot. Hymn in itself can be a wincon, especially when going Hymn, Snap -> Hymn. It's not just about having too much Hymns; it's about having access to those early Hymns. Sometimes it sucks to draw it in some matchups where hands are depleted, but we play Brainstorm and Jace and sometimes you can still hit stuff when people are topdecking permission (like Blasts and Spellpierces).

I've always played 3 Hymn and 2 Thoughtseize and have recently switched to an extra Bolt, keeping one Thoughtseize - which I was actually thinking of replacing with a 3 K-Command. In the combo matchups, Thoughtseize can be fantastic, but I feel in a lot of matchups, trading 1 for 1 (and losing 2 life) just feels really underwhelming. I do think Tomas' thinking is probably along the lines of being a little more proactive vs Delver and being able to go T1 Inquisition vs Delver can be pretty good to remove a threat before it even hits the board. If the discard eats a Daze, we're fine with that - cause it feels like we're losing less tempo, since it's one of the few tempo plays we can actually make on T1.

I don't really like going down to 3 Ponders as well, but I do have to admit that I often board one or more out vs stuff like Mono Red and Delver.

[RhoxWarMonk]

He was actually playing full duals for a while, if I'm not mistaken.


I think 3 Hymn is a sweet, sweet spot. Hymn in itself can be a wincon, especially when going Hymn, Snap -> Hymn. It's not just about having too much Hymns; it's about having access to those early Hymns. Sometimes it sucks to draw it in some matchups where hands are depleted, but we play Brainstorm and Jace and sometimes you can still hit stuff when people are topdecking permission (like Blasts and Spellpierces).

I've always played 3 Hymn and 2 Thoughtseize and have recently switched to an extra Bolt, keeping one Thoughtseize - which I was actually thinking of replacing with a 3 K-Command. In the combo matchups, Thoughtseize can be fantastic, but I feel in a lot of matchups, trading 1 for 1 (and losing 2 life) just feels really underwhelming. I do think Tomas' thinking is probably along the lines of being a little more proactive vs Delver and being able to go T1 Inquisition vs Delver can be pretty good to remove a threat before it even hits the board. If the discard eats a Daze, we're fine with that - cause it feels like we're losing less tempo, since it's one of the few tempo plays we can actually make on T1.

I don't really like going down to 3 Ponders as well, but I do have to admit that I often board one or more out vs stuff like Mono Red and Delver.

Couldn't agree more on the 3rd hymn, I too play 3 and can't see myself going back. There's just too many times it wins games, actually my spell suite looks fairly similar to yours. Currently I'm on 3 hymn/1 TS, 2 Bolts and 3 K-Command. Really liking that setup, though I wish I had room for the 3rd bolt (its currently a Toxic Deluge or LtlH, depending on your MD slots).

I can't imagine going up to so many discard spells or going down from 4 Ponders, but Mars is a hell of a lot better of a player than I am. Right now I'm quite happy with my main deck but I feel my SB still needs work. Has anyone had much success with the 3x Tarmogoyf plan? I really haven't found any footing with them yet and quickly cut them in favor of other playtesting choices (which Im also not happy with atm).

[Misersoneof]

It seems that a lot of people are running 3 hymn, 1 Thoughtseize for their discard package while I have been running 2 hymn & 2 TS. While I agree that Hymn is really strong, does it really trump targeted discard on T1? I would've thought that looking at the op's hand, taking their best card and being able to shape your plan is better than rolling the dice.