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Thread: [DTB] Czech Pile

  1. #181
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaka1333 View Post
    I understand your points but it doesn't help me choosing which deck I should test next haha (I played Stoneblade and BUG Shardless in the past, Miracles for a few years, I tried 4c Control on MTGO, now I am trying Grixis Pyromancer and i hesitate between your list or TheArtchitect list of Esper Mentor, UWr Miracles or some random home brews).

    Despite all this, I still don't know if the deck simply performed poorly in those 2 tournaments because of all the weaknesses you pointed out or because it was not heavily played/not played by a lot of good players like it is on MTGO.

    Again, I didn't mean to offend you or minimize your skill (that is why I said no offense and "lucky" with " " ). Despite your sideboard plan and your brainstorm protection, it was because still a bit lucky to win with that since a) you may not draw EE at the right time b) he may not have 2 2ccm at the same time on the battlefield c) few people play Library and very few play Baby Jace so winning against 4c Control on the back of EE is extremely rare.

    (Btw his manabase is way worse than classic version since he is playing 2 Wasteland and only one Volcanic Island)
    Understandable. I think your best bet is to find the one that you most enjoy playing, and then practice and optimize that one.

    Czech Pile may have underperformed in the last couple of events, but it could quite easily make a big comeback if people stop preparing for it. So if you like this deck, I see no reason to jump ship after only two bad performances.
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    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  2. #182
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    There is no such things as best deck, just decks that are very consistent at winning and grinding long tournament.

    Legacy is the history of people who just jam a deck that have outperformed a week, because the format is so complex and so hard to master than the netdeck effect is strong.

    The thing is, 4c Control is a very strong deck, as there is a few way to attack it, but people tends to think that it is just a pile of good cards and they can jam it and go for the win. Except that it is not the case, and now that everybody knows it, people will just adjust.

    They will adjust with their choice of decks, for instance, I believe that the resurgence of Tempo ***** is due to 4c, as the deck is doing well against it, as 4c Loam which has overperformed on the last two events.

    People are now playing more grindy sideboard tech, and good players are moving on the new flavours of the month, aka Esper Mentor.

    If you want to play the best deck, just jam 4 delver, 4 daze and 4 fow and start building around this. Anything else will always be less consistent in winning tournament.

    But your way of dealing with the format is quite unhealthy, you can't just come on a forum and ask people if the deck is now bad because it underperformed on two tournaments, make you a godamn opinion and play Legacy for Leovold's sake, you're going nowhere like this.

  3. #183
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Here's what I've been playing.

    4 Force of Will
    3 Cabal Therapy
    3 Lightning Bolt
    2 Fatal Push
    2 Kolaghan's Command

    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    3 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Gitaxian Probe

    1 True-Name Nemesis
    2 Snapcaster Mage
    3 Baleful Strix
    3 Young Pyromancer
    4 Deathrite Shaman

    2 Wasteland
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Badlands
    2 volcanic Island
    4 Underground Sea
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn

    SB:
    2 Ancient Grudge
    2 Diabolic Edict
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Toxic Deluge
    1 Dread of Night
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Pithing Needle

  4. #184
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by Machinus View Post
    Here's what I've been playing.

    4 Force of Will
    3 Cabal Therapy
    3 Lightning Bolt
    2 Fatal Push
    2 Kolaghan's Command

    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    3 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Gitaxian Probe

    1 True-Name Nemesis
    2 Snapcaster Mage
    3 Baleful Strix
    3 Young Pyromancer
    4 Deathrite Shaman

    2 Wasteland
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Badlands
    2 volcanic Island
    4 Underground Sea
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn

    SB:
    2 Ancient Grudge
    2 Diabolic Edict
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Toxic Deluge
    1 Dread of Night
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Pithing Needle
    That's Grixis Pyromancer, or Grixis Control, whichever you prefer. It's very close to Czech Pile, but the defining criteria of Czech Pile is 4c Leovold Control, which your list is not.

    The thread for that approach is Grixis Control.
    Sligh
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  5. #185
    MTGO Name: Adelorenzi
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    That's Grixis Pyromancer, or Grixis Control, whichever you prefer. It's very close to Czech Pile, but the defining criteria of Czech Pile is 4c Leovold Control, which your list is not.

    The thread for that approach is Grixis Control.
    This Grixis Control/Czech Pile thing reminds me of when people where confusing Grixis Delver with 4c Delver. In both cases Young Pyromancer has been the defining criteria.

  6. #186
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    That's Grixis Pyromancer, or Grixis Control, whichever you prefer. It's very close to Czech Pile, but the defining criteria of Czech Pile is 4c Leovold Control, which your list is not.

    The thread for that approach is Grixis Control.
    Naming decks in Legacy is not as black and white as you might wish. Anyway, other than not playing Leovold, my deck is closer to this one than that one.

  7. #187
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Differences:

    Czech Pile vs Grixis Control:
    0-2 wastelands vs 2-4 wastelands
    2 basics vs 0 basics
    1-2 Leovold vs 0 Leovold
    0-2 Abrupt Decay vs 0 Abrupt Decay
    0 Young Pyromancer vs 2-4 Young Pyromancer
    0 Cabal Therapy vs 2-4 Cabal Therapy
    2-3 Hymn to Tourach vs 0 Hymn to Tourach
    0 Preordain vs 0-3 Preordain

    Other cards are shared mostly depends on build.

  8. #188

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal View Post
    Differences:

    Czech Pile vs Grixis Control:
    0-2 wastelands vs 2-4 wastelands
    2 basics vs 0 basics
    1-2 Leovold vs 0 Leovold
    0-2 Abrupt Decay vs 0 Abrupt Decay
    0 Young Pyromancer vs 2-4 Young Pyromancer
    0 Cabal Therapy vs 2-4 Cabal Therapy
    2-3 Hymn to Tourach vs 0 Hymn to Tourach
    0 Preordain vs 0-3 Preordain

    Other cards are shared mostly depends on build.
    Grixis Control with Preordains runs 0 wastelands and 2/3 basic FYI
    Overdosed on confidence

  9. #189

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by Fra_44 View Post
    Grixis Control with Preordains runs 0 wastelands and 2/3 basic FYI
    Yeah why would you assume the three color deck runs fewer basics than the four color deck

  10. #190

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Do you guys think that there is a way to fight Burn-decks? or is it just a bad matchUp? there is a lot of Burn and UR in my meta. Or should i just play a different deck then? :D

  11. #191

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by blablub View Post
    Do you guys think that there is a way to fight Burn-decks? or is it just a bad matchUp? there is a lot of Burn and UR in my meta. Or should i just play a different deck then? :D
    Honestly my Burn % hasn't been too bad lately on modo. 2 BEB + 2 Soft counters do a ot of work and you should look for that angler asap

  12. #192

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    Honestly my Burn % hasn't been too bad lately on modo. 2 BEB + 2 Soft counters do a ot of work and you should look for that angler asap
    Yeah, currently im runnin the BUG Version with 3 Nemesis and Jitte Main. Adding Blue-Blasts to the SB and getting a clock might be good enough, thanks

  13. #193

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal View Post
    Differences:

    Czech Pile vs Grixis Control:
    0-2 wastelands vs 2-4 wastelands
    2 basics vs 0 basics
    1-2 Leovold vs 0 Leovold
    0-2 Abrupt Decay vs 0 Abrupt Decay
    0 Young Pyromancer vs 2-4 Young Pyromancer
    0 Cabal Therapy vs 2-4 Cabal Therapy
    2-3 Hymn to Tourach vs 0 Hymn to Tourach
    0 Preordain vs 0-3 Preordain

    Other cards are shared mostly depends on build.
    Just my 2 cents. In my experience playing decks in line with Czech pile and grixis control, the strategies are vastly different. Take into consideration the velocity at which these decks close games out and how they generate advantage. Grixis control plays with velocity clocking opponents while generating value off YP and their cantrips and disruption. Czech pile aims to generate CA over the course of the game until you get to the late game where the CA takes over.

    IMO grixis control is a YP deck while pile is a snapcaster deck.

    RE: Burn matchup haven't tested this yet but I'm hoping 1 blue blasts and 2 flusterstorm is mandatory imo. I play 2 Counterspell as well in my 75 as additional answer to burn haymakers. It's a manageable matchup but whatever, losing to it is fine unless it's like 15% or higher of your metagame.
    Last edited by bum_man; 11-11-2017 at 12:43 PM. Reason: Added thoughts
    Why so serious?

  14. #194
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by bum_man View Post
    Just my 2 cents. In my experience playing decks in line with Czech pile and grixis control, the strategies are vastly different. Take into consideration the velocity at which these decks close games out and how they generate advantage. Grixis control plays with velocity clocking opponents while generating value off YP and their cantrips and disruption. Czech pile aims to generate CA over the course of the game until you get to the late game where the CA takes over.

    IMO grixis control is a YP deck while pile is a snapcaster deck.

    RE: Burn matchup haven't tested this yet but I'm hoping 1 blue blasts and 2 flusterstorm is mandatory imo. I play 2 Counterspell as well in my 75 as additional answer to burn haymakers. It's a manageable matchup but whatever, losing to it is fine unless it's like 15% or higher of your metagame.
    "Grixis Control" is basically just a color combination (Grixis) and a deck style (control). Trying to define an exact list is very hard compared a more established deck name like Czech Pile.

    Grixis control can look like this: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/803622#paper (Ignore the obviously faulty deck name)

    Or like this: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/670708#paper

    Or it can look like everything in between. So I think if you want to have rewarding discussions about the differences or how to play against it, you need to be more specific.

  15. #195

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by LarsLeif View Post
    "Grixis Control" is basically just a color combination (Grixis) and a deck style (control). Trying to define an exact list is very hard compared a more established deck name like Czech Pile.

    Grixis control can look like this: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/803622#paper (Ignore the obviously faulty deck name)

    Or like this: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/670708#paper

    Or it can look like everything in between. So I think if you want to have rewarding discussions about the differences or how to play against it, you need to be more specific.
    Yes, this is why I pointed out key strategic differences between that deck and Czech pile. Since the DTT era, Grixis control/Grixis Pyromancer has been commonly categorized as a control deck that use YP based control deck that leverages on cantrips and control elements like therapy, probe, and counters to maximize value off of YP. Well at least that's how understand it. Some grixis control/pyromancer lists even used to eschew deathrite shaman to stay strictly under grixis colors.
    Why so serious?

  16. #196
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Hello guys,

    I have some trouble grinding other fair decks, like Shardless and Jund. I often lose to Jund due to Lili + P.fire being too oppressive for my board and hand, and to Shardless that does a lot of value.

    What do you recommand in those match-up and how do you tweak your sideboard to help against those decks ?

  17. #197
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Snapcaster Mage and Leovold are huge MVPs vs both of those decks. Just grind em out with Strixes + Removal and leverage your leovold/jaces to gain card advantage. K Command is always a huge beating vs Shardless too.

    As for sideboarding, Pyro/Red Blast is awesome vs Shardless, and maybe a couple more removal spells for some maindeck discard, which becomes useless in the midgame.

    Jund is kind of a different beast. The goal is to grind them out, so Surgical is a shoe-in to remove their Punishing Fires. Just grind em out with removal, leverage Snapcaster Mage to use the removal again, and you shouldn't have much trouble keeping your hand more full than theirs in the late game. Of course they can always Choke you, but you can operate on Jund colors somewhat. Instant speed snapcaster is good vs Lili on an empty board.

    Toxic Deluge could be worth it vs these decks. Sometimes they over-commit with cascades and DRS and so forth.

  18. #198

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Your Win% agaisnt Shardless or Jund postboard should be 80+% in my mind. You do the same thing as them just better, Jund will loose games to inconsistency while shardless just has less efficient spells.

  19. #199
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    Your Win% agaisnt Shardless or Jund postboard should be 80+% in my mind. You do the same thing as them just better, Jund will loose games to inconsistency while shardless just has less efficient spells.
    I feel quite confidant against Shardless, but you clearly never test the Jund match-up. Main game is nearly impossible due to P.fire engine, and while we can shut it down after side with surgi, this is clearly inconsistent, as they can beat the card.
    Jund is not incosistency at all, its average draw is incredibly powerfull and will just struggle to death/flood, which is less than 20% of the game. The rest is pure bomb that is hard to deal with.

  20. #200

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    Your Win% agaisnt Shardless or Jund postboard should be 80+% in my mind. You do the same thing as them just better, Jund will loose games to inconsistency while shardless just has less efficient spells.
    It's extremely rare for a deck to be 80% favored against another in Legacy, the only matchups that are that lopsided are things like Sneak and Show vs Lands, or Elves vs DnT.

    Shardless and Jund are basically greedier versions of this deck that trade some disruption and consistency for even more card advantage. They're probably both favored against Czech Pile, especially Jund with the P fire engine. Shardless really depends on how many red blasts you play.
    Nobody plays Legacy anymore, the tournaments are all too crowded

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