[Deck] Czech Pile

[RhoxWarMonk]

I do. It's been fine locally.

I find she's been so much better than LotV but I still find a lot of people using the latter (with success), so I'm not sure if I'm simply "doing it wrong" or not?

The other thing I'd love to discuss more is preordain vs ponder. Ponder is definitely the traditional choice but it seems a lot more people are opting for Preordain now and are finding a lot of success with it. Anyone here make the switch yet and if so, thoughts?

[DemolitionColorScheme]

An interesting read on BBD's take on Goyf in the board for Grixis Delver and Chalice matchups:
- http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/articl...date=5-24-2018

And then it hit me. It struck me, like a smooth criminal. I lost control of myself and yelled out, “Ach Hans, run. It's the Llurghoyf.” Tarmogoyf isn't a new idea in Four-Color Control; I have seen lists playing the card in the past but for some reason I had completely forgotten, but it seemed like the perfect card to combat Grixis Delver after sideboard.

I sent a message to Brad Nelson at 2 a.m. the night before we left for Toronto, telling him to bring Tarmogoyfs along on the trip.

That worked out pretty well.

I registered three Tarmogoyfs in my sideboard, a threat designed to put pressure on Grixis Delver and Chalice of the Void strategies, and I played against a lot of Grixis Delver and Chalice of the Void strategies. I did not lose to any of them, and Tarmogoyf did a lot of work and surprised a lot of opponents.

Any opinions / experiences with this?

[RhoxWarMonk]

An interesting read on BBD's take on Goyf in the board for Grixis Delver and Chalice matchups:
- http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/articl...date=5-24-2018


Any opinions / experiences with this?

Just read the article, I don't have any experience with goyf in this shell but I trust that he playtested the crap out of the Grixis Delver matchup, so his advice holds a lot of weight IMO and it's something I think I'll give a try myself. To be honest, I'm still a little skeptical because I find Grixis tends to go wide and Delvers fly over top but I can absolutely see Goyf being a beating against prison strategies and at least will hold down gurmags and put extra pressure on them in the early game, so it's likely better than some of the alternatives; guess we'll see.

One interesting thing I noticed is that most lists are no longer playing Abrupt Decay... why is that? Both BBD and Lucas Siow opted against running it in the 75 but it's a card I rarely ever consider dropping completely in fear of not being able to answer certain problem permanents like blood moon, for example. I guess Hydroblast does the same thing post board and for only 1 mana, where as getting the green required to cast AD after BM has hit the table is tricky, but it hits more than just BM, including pesky planeswalkers like Liliana. I'd love to hear some opinions on this and see if it's another slot I can squeeze out of the MD.

[NegatorITA]

Just read the article, I don't have any experience with goyf in this shell but I trust that he playtested the crap out of the Grixis Delver matchup, so his advice holds a lot of weight IMO and it's something I think I'll give a try myself. To be honest, I'm still a little skeptical because I find Grixis tends to go wide and Delvers fly over top but I can absolutely see Goyf being a beating against prison strategies and at least will hold down gurmags and put extra pressure on them in the early game, so it's likely better than some of the alternatives; guess we'll see.

One interesting thing I noticed is that most lists are no longer playing Abrupt Decay... why is that? Both BBD and Lucas Siow opted against running it in the 75 but it's a card I rarely ever consider dropping completely in fear of not being able to answer certain problem permanents like blood moon, for example. I guess Hydroblast does the same thing post board and for only 1 mana, where as getting the green required to cast AD after BM has hit the table is tricky, but it hits more than just BM, including pesky planeswalkers like Liliana. I'd love to hear some opinions on this and see if it's another slot I can squeeze out of the MD.

let's see:
Hydroblast/BeB take care of: young pyromancer, burn spells, moon, chandra, kolaghan, past in flames, burning wish and sneak attack... quite the numbers for a "shitty" sideboard card.
Reb/Pyroblast deal with BTB (which is the primary hate seems in fair events/online along with moon),Counterbalance,True name, show and tell, manipulate fate, leovold, delvers, ancestral visions, jace, the usual blue good spells

Now, let's all brainstorming : what's left out that are dangerous for us?

Rest in peace - which is currently not so widely played due of BR Reanimator being too fast for it to be effective.
Humility - rarely played, we can still win with PW out of it.
aluren - not so wisely played, don't have experience, but decay don't it it aluren anyway.
food chain - food griffin is so ahead of us personally, that here decay DO matters a lot, but how many food griffin are played out there? and still 1 or 2 may not help.
Counterbalance - without top isn't impossible to reb it away, but if it were to be everywhere, some decay could help, it's not everywhere btw)
gurmag/nemesi - decay doesn't help
new karn - decay doesn't help
liliana the last hope - here decay helps but:

If you see the new list all run 3/4 snap 3+ bolt: these should do the trick both vs liliana AND gurmag, while even offering some kind of reach for TNN (because yep, without equipment, hello triple kolaghan) nemesis shouldn't put up a fast race (shouldn't, in reality WE don't have a fast race, so...)

What really concern me, is that they all dumped every kind of extra thoughtseize, really nobody plays combo at gps?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

He said himself it surprised many of the relevant opponents to see Goyf. My suspicion is that boarding plans and even gameplay changes somewhat if SB Goyfs become an actual plan and the strategy fails. I'm not saying don't do it in a regional or larger event, because if your opponents don't expect it, as BBD's example shows, it's strong; but as sticking them in the board insinuates-it needs to be a surprise.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

So, in regards to the Goyfs:
I went to the Dutch Open Series today and jammed 3 Goyf in the SB as of yesterday (after some playtesting) and while I wasn't paired versus any Delver-variants, I did encounter 3 Chalice-'n-stuff decks and every time I boarded in the Goyfs they were a severe beating for them. It basically just becomes "protect the Goyf(s) and ride it / them to victory" and I was actually really pleased with 'em in those matchups. Ancient Tombs + getting rid of a few opposing artifacts and PWs makes for a rather large Goyf early on and quite the clock. Chalice decks that are being pressured and are on the backfoot often just ... well, lose.

In playtesting versus Grixis and UR Delver, they were spectacular as well; not only as a wall for Swiftspears, Gurmags and groundtroups, but as an offensive tool as well. Being able to close out games fast is at times just really nice. I wouldn't board them in versus stuff like BUG Delver or BUG Leovold due to Push.

I boarded them in versus Storm as well since Strix is so dead in that matchup, outside of the (expensive) cantrip and FoW-pitch, and there they did fine as well.

In regards to Abrupt Decay:

One interesting thing I noticed is that most lists are no longer playing Abrupt Decay... why is that? Both BBD and Lucas Siow opted against running it in the 75 but it's a card I rarely ever consider dropping completely in fear of not being able to answer certain problem permanents like blood moon, for example. I guess Hydroblast does the same thing post board and for only 1 mana, where as getting the green required to cast AD after BM has hit the table is tricky, but it hits more than just BM, including pesky planeswalkers like Liliana. I'd love to hear some opinions on this and see if it's another slot I can squeeze out of the MD.

This is something that's been on my mind as well as of late. I've always ran with 1 Decay in the main (2 K-Command in the main next to it) and 1 in the side (before the Goyf-switch). I dunno, I'm on the fence about it. The downside of Decay at times is that it's B/G which at times can be slightly awkward, but we also know that in Legacy especially, a 1 mana difference is rather huge and it being uncounterable does come up in the matches where it stays in, like vs. the mirror (and BUG / Grixis variants), Miracles, Infect, etc.

K-Command and Abrupt Decay do overlap in the artifact department, but here the 1 mana difference can be huge when being on the play, dropping a land -> DRS / Ponder, them dropping a Tomb + Chalice and you being able to Abrupt Decay immediately and then fire off another DRS / Ponder / BS / TS or keeping DRS-mana open to Push / Bolt / Blast a Magus, for example. Granted, this does depend on different factors, since K-Command would be way better when they try to resolve a Magus and you just blast the Chalice + Magus, considering you have a DRS out and a fetch in the GY.

Things Abrupt Decay does hit, K-Command doesn't, and are rather relevant:
Sylvan Library, Exploration / Manabond, Molten Vortex, Blood Moon, RiP (not really a thing anymore, very true), Bitterblossom, Lili's, Back to Basics, Suppression Field, random jank 1-3CMC enchantments (did win me a game today, getting a Leovold trigger and drawing into Decay), etc.

Things Abrupt Decay hits but stuff like Pyroblast hit as well, but where the uncounterable portion of Decay actually comes up in regards to matchups:
Counterbalance, Search, Back to Basics.

Now, in terms of it being a maindeck thing and 2CMC:
It does get rid of stuff on turn two, like a resolved YP, DRS, Delver, Thalia (with a DRS out); basically, any threat. Vs Delver it isn't even that bad that it's not that cheap and hyper-efficient, the uncounterable part actually lines up with us not having to play around Daze. Granted, I do always board it out vs Grixis and UR Delver.

So, well - I'm not sure. Sometimes I'm staring at an early K-Command vs Delver and it feels so ... far away.

What really concern me, is that they all dumped every kind of extra thoughtseize, really nobody plays combo at gps?

This I agree on! I still run 2 TS main (next to 3 Hymn) and it feels really bold not running TS in the 75, but I do have to say - they basically always come out vs the non-combo matchups, since I don't feel it's necessarily where we want to be. Besides the G1 info I gather with it, it never feels ridiculously powerful in Legacy, even though it's a fantastic card.

-------------------------

This is the current list I'm running:
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Abrupt Decay

4 Ponder
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

SB:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Sylvan Library
3 Tarmogoyf

[Misersoneof]

Hey everyone,

It's been a while since I've come back to this thread and it seems like there has been some real good discussion going on. I've gotten caught up on BBD's article and I can't say that I disagree with his conclusions, I am sad to say however that I don't own any goyfs so I will not be able to play with his proposed SB package.

But, I have been thinking really hard about the meta and while some of you have been moving more and more into green cards, I've been looking at eliminating them all together.

My current list runs a single Trop, switches leovolds for TNNs, doubles the basics count and runs 3 moons in the board. My reasoning has been that for any deck with a greedy manabase, I can moon and then counter or remove anything that they can still cast while riding a TNN or Jace to victory. Against decks that run moon or chalice, I have constructed a deck that ignores lock pieces until the crucial turn where I wipe them out and play some threats.

This is my list that I've been tinkering with.

Land (19)
1x Badlands
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Island
4x Polluted Delta
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Swamp
1x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island

Sorcery (9)
3x Hymn to Tourach
4x Preordain
2x Thoughtseize

Instant (16)
4x Brainstorm
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Fatal Push
4x Force of Will
2x Kolaghan's Command
2x Lightning Bolt

Creature (13)
4x Baleful Strix
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x True-Name Nemesis

Planeswalker (3)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Liliana, the Last Hope

Sideboard (14)
3x Blood Moon
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x By Force
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2x Flusterstorm
1x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Toxic Deluge

I realize that this is a Grixis Control list and it doesn't necessarily belong in this thread, but I would like input from some of you guys on what I am opening myself up to with this list and the elimination of green. Is there any way to shore up those openings other than reintroducing green to the deck? I guess I'm asking if you guys think I'm going off the reservation with this list and if I should come back to the fold.

As a side note, I have noticed from a lot of the lists being posted seem to have very little in the way of dealing with a quick marit lage. Has the meta moved away from Lands and Turbo Depths or have some of you accepted it as a bad Game 1 match?

[DemolitionColorScheme]

I realize that this is a Grixis Control list and it doesn't necessarily belong in this thread, but I would like input from some of you guys on what I am opening myself up to with this list and the elimination of green. Is there any way to shore up those openings other than reintroducing green to the deck? I guess I'm asking if you guys think I'm going off the reservation with this list and if I should come back to the fold.

For me, personally; I feel all those Grixis and BUG lists are pretty much Pile, but just dropping one of the splashes; either Red or Green. The core and the 2-for-1-mentality is basically the same across all the versions. The upside of the 3-color versions is that they can incorporate more basics and - indeed - Blood Moon or can even add Wasteland.

As a side note, I have noticed from a lot of the lists being posted seem to have very little in the way of dealing with a quick marit lage. Has the meta moved away from Lands and Turbo Depths or have some of you accepted it as a bad Game 1 match?

As far as I know, most lists still run 2 Diabolic Edict in the side or sometimes a 1-off in the main and 1 in the side. I think it depends on how the maindeck is built. 2-mana removal is pretty pricey for Legacy and I just rather have a Deluge in the main at the moment.

As for the Blood Moon tech; I like it! I'd give it a shot. Blood Moon can be backbreaking versus a lot of strategies. We can't get it out on turn 1, but with a DRS, we can slam it on turn 2.

[NegatorITA]

My version would look like:
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
3 Kolaghan's Command


4 Ponder
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

SB:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1-2 Hydroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Toxic deluge
2 Surgical Extraction
2-1 Liliana, the Last Hope
0-1 pithing needle
3 Tarmogoyf

Edited the list as I would play that:
Indeed I'd prefer to run two lili in the board over the lybrary (personal tastes) but I'm afraid of having only one BeB effect when it hits to much stuffs lately... also two lili can still be a bit overkill with the three goyf... even if they are grindy powerful tools

[CarlosTiberioJr]

As we have almost the same core for maindeck now, wouldn't be nice to have some sideboard plan (at least what isn't so good to remove from deck) for the most common matchups on legacy ?

[DemolitionColorScheme]

As we have almost the same core for maindeck now, wouldn't be nice to have some sideboard plan (at least what isn't so good to remove from deck) for the most common matchups on legacy ?

Yeah, that would definitely be nice! I'd be interested seeing how other people board seeing as there are definitely viable different boarding plans.

[NegatorITA]

Yeah, that would definitely be nice! I'd be interested seeing how other people board seeing as there are definitely viable different boarding plans.

Mmmm with the new decklist I'm unsure how to side in properly the goyf, but here is what I'd go for: (updated list and updated sideboard)
def need some suggestion/feed back vs grixis and miracle eh, I know everyone has different concepts, like cutting force or not cutting them ever.

1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the last hope

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
3 Kolaghan's Command


4 Preordain
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

SB:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Hydroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Toxic deluge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 pithing needle / surgical extraction / thoughtseize
3 Tarmogoyf[/QUOTE]
[/SPOILER]

The needle slot is still under judgment, I guess we can call it a meta call, needle should help vs walker/depths/wasteland.deck maybe even artifact. deck (voltaic key? ballista?) but TS help more vs all combos and SE vs BR/dredge, can be replaced obv with spellbomb or cage if your deck need more GY hate

vs storm
- 4 strix
- 2 push
- 1 jace
- 1 liliana, the last hope
- 1 kolaghan's command

+ 2 surgical
+ 2 reb
+ 2 beb
+ 2 flusterstorm
+ 1 toxic deluge

debating if I should now remove ALL the kolaghan + jace in order to slam in the tripe goyf


VS BR reanimator
I wish I have more GY hate to begin with, surely if meta is GY infested I'd run a third surgical over needle.

- 2 push
+ 2 edicts
- 3 tourach
+ 2 surgical + 1 needle (or triple surgical)
- 3 kolaghan - 1 liliana
+ 2 flusterstorm + 2 blue elemental blast

Oddly I've not played against BR with 4c much, but that's my plan: I want to avoid him discarding cards he may like, and I go with all the help I can get, because fluster is half decent, and BeB only hit loothing/stronghold, but it may still be good targets


VS Grixis Delver
- 4 force
+ 2 reb + 2 beb
- 3 tourach
+ 3 tarmogoyf
- 2 jace - 1 thoughtseize
+2 flusterstorm +1 toxic deluge

Unsure here if I side in correctly, I play against the best legacy deck not so much and I'm unsure since the side is "new"

VS Show and tell
- 2 push
- 2 bolt
- 1 deluge
+ 2 beb + 2 reb + 1 needle
- 1 liliana - 3 kolaghan
+ 2 flusterstorm + 2 surgical extraction
- 4 strix
+ 2 edicts + 2 goyf

Not totally sure here either if I should slam in some goyf or not, strix can still keep in check a needled griselshit after all... and diabolic edict works only at times, so here is what I'd try, unsure though.

VS Blood moon stompy
- 4 strix
+3 goyf + 1 needle
- 2 fatal push
+ 2 beb

VS Bug shardless/control
- 4 force
+ 2 reb +2 fluster
-1 thoughtsize
+ 1 deluge

Can also meddle with tourach/push/edicts but depends on the opponent list or if I'm on the draw/play

Vs Mirror
- 4 force
- 1 thoutseize
- 1 deluge

+2 beb +2 reb + 2 fluster

can also move some tourach for removal if expeting angler and or if I'm on the draw/play.


VS miracle
- 1 thoughtseize/kolaghan
+1 needle
- 4 strix
+ 2 flusterstorm + 2 reb

here I definitely need some suggestion vs miracle, but that's how I go, strix cantrip but doesn't really do nothing vs mentor and it's slow vs PW, force is still good because going in late we need to stop their powerful spells. Thoughtseize should be cut on the draw and kolaghan on the play but maybe it's fine to always cut the command instead.

Vs food griffin

I think we should side in Tarmogoyf, because fast clock and discard is usually how I beat them (when I was running angler and double thougtseize and one or two decay=)
really, need suggestions here though since with that list I think we are even less favored (no decay at all hurts, needle should really be another TS)
Def we need reb/fluster to counter their manipulate fate though.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

I'll add my sideboard-planning vs. the field.

My current list:
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Abrupt Decay

4 Ponder
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

SB:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Sylvan Library
3 Tarmogoyf

vs Grixis Delver:

OTP:
-4 FoW
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Abrupt Decay
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

+3 Goyf
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Hydroblast / +1 Flusterstorm
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
+1 Marsh Casualties

OTD:
-4 FoW
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Abrupt Decay
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

+3 Goyf
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Hydroblast / +1 Flusterstorm
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
+1 Marsh Casualties
+1 Flusterstorm

I wouldn't board out Hymn here. Being pro-active vs Delver is pretty good. There's a case for going down -1 Hymn and keeping in 1 Jace on the draw or replacing that with an Edict.

-------------

vs Ant:
-2 Fatal Push
-2 Lightning Bolt
-1 Abrupt Decay
-3 Strix
-1 Toxic Deluge

+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Pyroblast
+3 Goyf

vs TES:
-2 Fatal Push
-2 Lightning Bolt
-1 Abrupt Decay
-4 Strix
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Hydroblast
+1 Marsh Casualties
+3 Goyf

-------------

vs Mono Red Prison:

OTP:
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-1 Ponder
-3 Hymn to Tourach

+3 Goyf
+1 Hydroblast
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope

OTD:
-2 Thoughtseize
-2 Hymn to Tourach
-1 Ponder

+3 Goyf
+1 Hydroblast
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Sylvan Library could come in here, but is a bitch when a Blood Moon / Magus does resolve and you can't crack your fetches to shuffle. I wouldn't board out your Pushes here, since they can be an answer to their creature base. Even if you can't fetch to activate Revolt, blocking with a DRS still gives you a trigger. Same goes for Strix. It's something that can get under Chalice most of the times, does cantrip and can block a Magus / Rabblemaster / Orge. There's something to be said for keeping 2 Thoughtseize on the play, though.

-------------

vs Stompy / MUD / Big Eldrazi / Cloud:

OTP:
-2 Fatal Push
-1 Ponder
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

+3 Goyf
+2 Edict

OTD:
-2 Fatal Push
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

+3 Goyf
+2 Edict

Lightning Bolt still deals with Lodestone Golem, Metalworker and can shoot Planeswalkers and such.

-------------

vs UWR Miracles (non Mentor):
-2 Fatal Push
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Volcanic Island
-1 Strix

+2 Pyroblast
+1 Hydroblast
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
+1 Sylvan Library

vs UWR Miracles w/ Mentor:
-1 Volcanic Island
-1 Strix
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 FoW
-1 Fatal Push

+2 Pyroblast
+1 Hydroblast
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
+1 Sylvan Library

We're pretty much forced to keep in Deluge for a Mentor that's running wild. Liliana and Library are a pretty big deal in this matchup. Hymn and K-Command are great here as well. These games will go long and I feel FoW is pretty mandatory, since they do have some permanents which we want to fight over and 2-for-1-ing ourselves while being able to make up for that with Hymn, K-Command, Lili, Snap, Strix and Library is okay. Gideon is really problematic for us, for instance.

-------------

Turbo Depths:
-2 Fatal Push
-1 Toxic Deluge
-2 K-Command
-1 Ponder

+2 Edict
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Flusterstorm

I feel this matchup is truly abysmal. This basically comes down to Strix-block and bounce with Jace, or Edict and then Surgical-ing their Depths. Bolts need to stay in to get rid of things like Dryad Arbor, Safekeeper or an extra Hexmage that's being played to keep them safe from Edict. Sometimes you can get lucky with Hymn-ing their Depths and then Surgical-ing it. Abrupt Decay stays in for Library, Expedition Map and Needle.

Slow Depths:

OTP:
-2 K-Command
-1 Abrupt Decay
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-1 Ponder

+2 Edict
+1 Marsh Casualties
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
+2 Surgical Extraction

OTD:
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 K-Command
-1 Abrupt Decay
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-1 Ponder

+2 Edict
+1 Marsh Casualties
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
+2 Surgical Extraction

Basically the same matchup, but it's even harder since they bring a ton of creatures to the matchup which we do need removal for. I don't think we can rely on Strix-block + Jace-bounce, but I'd like to hear different perspectives on this matchup.

-------------

I don't have enough time to finish this now, but will pick this up later!

[NegatorITA]

was playtesting tonight and wasn't impressed by tarmo vs tes, it didn't really matter this much
Food chain still proves to be a terrible match up if I don't have any decay
I think in my meta there are too much combo for running a goyf list :/

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It's (Tarmogoyf's) inclusion is predicated upon being strong versus combo and tempo because of the fast clock it represents early on; this gives the opponent the ultimatum of deal with it or die. Having said that, tes is a very fast deck. It's a whole turn faster (sometimes more) than ANT, and sometimes there's nothing that can get underneath it, and that includes a single Force of Will. It's just fast.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

It's (Tarmogoyf's) inclusion is predicated upon being strong versus combo and tempo because of the fast clock it represents early on; this gives the opponent the ultimatum of deal with it or die. Having said that, tes is a very fast deck. It's a whole turn faster (sometimes more) than ANT, and sometimes there's nothing that can get underneath it, and that includes a single Force of Will. It's just fast.

Indeed. And I think having the potential to increase the clock with a Goyf while Hymning and Thoughtseizing does more than Strix's would in that matchup.

[NegatorITA]

Indeed. And I think having the potential to increase the clock with a Goyf while Hymning and Thoughtseizing does more than Strix's would in that matchup.

Indeed I was surprised how much more fast then Ant is, Usually only ant is played around here but my buddy just got TES and we both wanted to test.

I may just make some fix here and there on your list ( mainly playing Golgari charm over Marsh) and try.
Still not a fan of library, would rather have a second Lili/Chandra/combo hate card personally

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Still not a fan of library, would rather have a second Lili/Chandra/combo hate card personally

How often do you play the mirror? It's very good there imo. If I were you I would try the 1B sorcery that draws you 2 cards and loses you two life. It's like a tempo version of Library that allows you to Snapcaster for extra draws. Plus, you get 4 cards for 4 life that way rather than 4 life for 1 card. You lose the filter, but gain a little flexibility.

[NegatorITA]

How often do you play the mirror? It's very good there imo. If I were you I would try the 1B sorcery that draws you 2 cards and loses you two life. It's like a tempo version of Library that allows you to Snapcaster for extra draws. Plus, you get 4 cards for 4 life that way rather than 4 life for 1 card. You lose the filter, but gain a little flexibility.

this
I've already tryed the Night's whisper/Painful truth and Library slot:
they are all great in the mirror/control/bug/jund/D&T match up, just I'm often stuck playing vs
dredge
ant
tes
S&T
aluren
Food chain
burn
moon stompy

[mcnealstash]

How worth it is the red splash in 4 color? I've seen a few BUG lists that drop red so that they can pick up some number of wasteland, and are usually running some amount of TNN. Is picking up a few k commands and bolts really worth stretching the mana base for?