As for Nic Fit - I don't think surgical is worth bringing, there is little window to exile cabal therapy (or even no window), more over exiling some singletons which are bringing by E.Witness or Meren is not worth 1 card from hand, other story when they bring back some 3-4 of cards like removal, anyway I don't think surgical is worth bringing against.Originally Posted by kubalonek
Sugical < Red Elemental Blast, Discard (Hymn), Thread even counters like FoW will be better then Surgical - can stop Veteran Explorer from resolving, works also as overcosted Counterspell which isn't to hard to cast after they trigger Explorer.
Hei guys
Finally my record takes an end..
Played my bug pile list again in a 30 men tournament.
I got stopped in the top 4.
I have to say i played really poorly some small but important missplay in the end of the top 4..
2:1 Bug delver
2:0 chandra stompy
0:2 Dnt with black splash..normally you cannot lose to it but g1 he played pontif for my true name..still jitte and leovold on board.. then i just get flooded by drawing lands..
G2 mull to 4...
2:0 Dark dephts
I draw
Top 8
2:1 infect.. i missplay g1 again poorly..
1:2 dnt (same) g1 he takes mull to 6 otp..i keep a fetch 1 lander with fow , jitw, shaman, push,strix so i keep it otd. The way to beat this hand is double stp and wasteland..he have it and i just draw 1 land alot later and i concede..
G2 i do what my deck does..
G3 my hand is nuts but t3 council judgment take my true name and t4 monarch guy takes my last creatureshaman with jitte... then i drow just 1 or 2 removals and just lands again!!! And i lose..
I was like ok if dnt this lucky i just lose..also i made a noob missplay with push maybe if i wouldnt do that i could probably safe more time but still not sure..
But i'm ok with top 4:)
Greets Pascal
the BUG list is very appealing to me, also because they are the colors that I like most.
but there is a big missing, imho, that stops me playing this deck: pyroblast. Pdingo, how do you fight against blue-control deck? Is leo your only answer to Jace? I guess you have to keep FoW...... or you replace them with Fluster?
I've been seeing a few lists running Grafdigger's Cage in the sideboard. Why? This doesn't pair well with Snapcaster Mage. My speculation is against Elves, it slows down Natural Order and Green Sun's Zenith, but they can still ping you by committee or use Glimpse of Nature, unless you have Leovold present. Cage vs. Reanimator is great and perhaps that's the reason. Just asking for a friend...
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=25232&iddeck=197963
See Bo55sauce list - https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...gue-2017-10-22
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
Well is there any blue controll deck?
The only one i know is miracle and i have to say its a harder match up..but board in fluster and more discard. This should be fine but it is still pretty hard. Here i keep in all the forces
The other one is uwr stoneblade. Here you basically do the same but take in the marah casualties just for true name.
Here you can side out some forces.
The diffrent between miracle and stoneblade is that you cannot make great card advange like with miracle. So hymn are here alot more efficient. My answet to jace is always discard, true name or leovold. But if you really fear a jace then play maelstrom pulse in the sideboard.
Greets Pascal
yeah, I was thinking about pulse, but I prefer instant solution. Maybe notion thief (I REALLY love that card......slow, you have to be open, but if it resolves after a brainstorm/jace's activation, it's game).
thanks for the input!
What's your opinion about top 5 list at the Eternal Weekend in North America?
Two baby Jaces and three Kozileks main deck.
Jace seems like a controll card for me its a bader snapcaster mage but maybe it can be good in a slow format.
Inquisiton of kozilek hmm i really don't like this card as a legacy card..jace, fow or even gurmag is important to take sometimes..i dont know why inquisiton is played over TS.
And just losing -2 life is not an argument..burn is still bad and not heavy played..
Fwiw Ondrej will have most likely got the decklist from Tomas Mar, who made this deck in the beginning. I'd be sure that all the choices are well thought out.
I am also curious about the where does czech pile stands in the current metagame? Looks like delvers are still putting up better numbers, despite czech pile being the most played deck in the tournament. It is still a great deck, dont get me wrong but is there some changes we can make to combat delver better?
I don't think you need to do anything to combat Delver. Just because it's putting up better results doesn't make it a bad matchup, they're not connected.
Bad matchups are Lands and some fast combo decks like TES and Dredge I think, SnS can be tough too.
I played the deck at a local tournament this weekend with 54 players, got a Force of Will for the result. I got to try out a Bitterblossom in the sideboard a bit more, it was a must answer in the mirror (where it did get answered by Decay unfortunately, but that card isn't standard in every list these days) and vs other midrange/control decks that doesn't get hit by pyro/hydro blast. Quite happy with it so far, has anyone else tried it?
kubalonek, nice last result. Our lists are very close, I'm really happy with most of it.
2-0 vs BUG Delver
1-2 vs Miracles
1-2 vs 4c
2-1 vs DnT
2-0 vs Elves
2-0 vs Big Red
2-0 vs UWR Stoneblade
2-0 vs Punishing Dack
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Fatal Push
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Kolaghan’s Command
1 Thoughtseize
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Misty Rainforest
SB
2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Bitterblossom
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Marsh Casualties
RE: Inquisition of Kozilek: I chatted a little with Tomas Mar on this subject and played his list @Ovino (lost my win-and-in to TurboDepths). I'll try to give som insights on this subject (might be a little off of Tomas' thougts though)
The general thought is you want to be able to trade one for one or even 1 for 2 (e.g. forcing an important spell earlygame) in the earlygame a lot.
In the mid- to lategame your superior spells will draw you ahead anyways, so it's good to have more plays in the early game (more CC1 discard) to have more choices.
Many games are lost bc we have cards in hand we were'nt able to play. The lifeloss matters a lot. Ofc mostly vs more aggressive decks, but even in mirror matches it makes a difference, too.
Another point is developing your gameplay according to your opponents hand (seeing your opponents hand more often during games is important).
Hi Everyone,
Just got back from a third place finish in a tournament rocking the below list. Will try to provide a more comprehensive report later today. Just wanted to ask some key questions regarding deck philosophy in general. Below is my list.
Czech Pile
20 Lands
4 Polluted Delta
2 scalding tarn
2 bloodstained mire
2 wasteland
1 island
1 swamp
3 underground sea
2 Volcanic island
1 tropical island
1 bayou
1 badlands
13 CREATURE
4 deathrite shaman
4 baleful strix
3 snapcaster mage
2 Leovold emissary of trest
3 PLANESWALKER
2 Jace the mindsculptor
1 Liliana of the veil
24 SORCERY AND INSTANTS
4 brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 force of will
2 kolaghans command
2 hymn to tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 fatal push
1 lightning bolt
1 Counterspell
1 toxic deluge
1 diabolic edict
15 SIDEBOARD
2 surgical extraction
2 hymn to tourach
1 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
1 blue elemental blast
1 hydroblast
1 flusterstorm
1 Counterspell
1 life from the loam
1 umezawas jitte
1 toxic deluge
1 marsh casualties
1 diabolic edict
Thoughts:
-4 baleful strix is a must have for me. Great 2 for 1 engine with kommands and helps manage early game to get to a point where the CA starts to put us ahead. I've never felt the need to speed up the clock. Finished all my matches and oddly enough, won through creatures all the days since walkers were most of my side outs.
-2 Counterspell in the 75. I've found Counterspell to be a very good card especially post board where forces gets sided out. These aren't commonly played but I feel good with them. Thoughts?
- Abrupt Decay vs Liliana of the Veil. This is currently my flex slot in the MD. Both cards have merits but not sold on either. I liked the Counterspell md instead of playing both lotv and abrupt decay. Do you think it is needed?
-Has anyone made use of other sweepers outside of marsh casualties and deluge? Deluge seems great but there are cases where being able to deluge is difficult due to us being on low life. Thoughts?
-IMO at least 2 wasteland is mandatory. I've won a lot of critical matches off of the 2 wastelands. Anyone having mixed results with this setup?
-Does this deck have a discord group? I'd like to join if you do. Thanks!
Why so serious?
Hello everyone, I've been playing the deck for a few months now and here is what I've found to work the best for me. I would appreciate any feedback on this list as well as suggestions for any card changes or substitutions. The obvious change might be Counterspell or Abrupt Decay. The pair of Counterspells have worked out well for me, but I see most people don't run them anymore. Maybe because it's too slow? Especially on the draw anyways. Abrupt Decay can be clunky at times, but for the most part it's solid removal. Anyway, here's the list and I look forward to any feedback. Thank you.
Mainboard
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force Of Will
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Counterspell
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn To Tourach
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, The Last Hope
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Wasteland
Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Dread of Night
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrade
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Hymn To Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
Also, what does everyone think of Search for Azcanta? I was considering trying it, but maybe it's either redundant or someone else has tried it but without success. Thanks.
The deck almost didn't put any results in the last 2 major US tournaments despite being played (only the best player in the room Ondrej Strasky made quaterfinal with it at the EW but 0 version made Top32 at the SCG Open...).
I thought it was clearly in the Top5 of the format, maybe the best deck, so I am very surprised.
Is the deck actually bad ?
Is it, in fact, not heavily played in the US (the 15 4c Control on SCG could be other decks without red) like it is on MTGO ?
What do you think ?
Most of the time, when a deck becomes a DTB, people become prepared for it. This deck has several big weaknesses, which make it much easier to hate out than a more resilient DTB like old Miracles or Grixis Delver.
For starters, the manabase is atrocious. The colored requirements are all over the board, so the deck is very vulnerable to Wasteland, removal for your DRS, Back to Basics, Blood Moon, etc.
You run a large number of removal spells that are dead draws against combo decks, not enough interaction in game 1, and a slow clock. So you are also vulnerable to various combo decks. These matchups can be improved postboard, but I'd still very much consider this another weakness.
Lastly, the other midrange and control decks of the format are beginning to adjust and tweak with Czech Pile in mind. What this means is that, what were originally your best matchups, have slowly gotten worse. People are now prepared to either get under you, or to keep up with you in CA. For example, I went 2-1 against Czech Pile twice during the EW main event with Mentor Deathblade by doing a combination of both of those things.
I believe that as long as no deck is broken (which miracle was, and 4c isn't) the best deck will only be marginally best as the other decks can evolve around it. Just as Hanni said I think other decks are prepared for a czech pile meta and because if that czech pile isn't that well positioned. I also think that the high density of czech piles online makes it worse: there people are starting to next level other piles with more and more value and grind cards, even as sideboard tech. If you come to an open meta with that version of the deck you're bound to loose.
That's a very fair point JackaBo. It is true that people try to optimize their 4c Control to beat other 4c Control (I have faced a lot of Sylvan Library and Painful Truths, even a miser Divert which was very painful on my Hymn to Tourach) and so if you arrive in a live tournament with your 4c Control optimized to beat other 4c Control, you will likely not have a good chance of success.
The other question is : Why is it still that heavily played on MTGO if the deck is not that good ? I believe the level in MTGO is (way) higher than the one in a big live tournament so people should change their deck if it was not that good (plus it is easier to buy another deck on MTGO than it is in paper).
Hanni, I agree that the manabase is not great but it is better than people might think. I honestly rarely have problems. Yes you can lose against 2 Wasteland + Stifle, early Blood Moon or Back to Basics (I play 2 Abrupt Decay and 3 Pyroblast though) but most of the time, it is fine.
I didn't test against a lot of combo decks yet but it seems pretty even to me.
Except UWr Miracles, I don't really see how other Midrange / Control can compete in term of long game CA against 4c Control. I honestly don't think that your 3 matches against the deck is enough to conclude anything (no offense) especially when Ondrej Strasky's hands were really bad in the quarters and you got him with a "lucky" EE (it is extremely rare that you can handle two gamebreakers like Jace and Library at the same time ^^;).
No one is saying the deck is not good. We're saying that this isn't the next Miracles... if you're the current DTB and on everyone's radar, you're going to have a bad day. That's all. In fairness, most decks become easy to beat when people are gunning for them. The same things happen to Eldrazi Stompy, Elves, Sneak and Show, Lands, etc.
In regards to the manabase, sometimes it's not even an opponent's cards that you lose to. Sometimes, you just lose to yourself. In my game 2 against Ondrej, he was unable to find red mana for like 7 turns, which likely lost him the game.
I'm not saying my games against Czech Pile were definitive, especially with such a small sample size. I did lose to Czech Pile the day before, going 0-2, although he played two Leo's each in both games, and pretty early in both games to boot. I did not have Council's Judgment or Toxic Deluge in my board at the time, but my point is that I did lose to Czech Pile as well. I'm not saying the matchup is unfavorable for you, I'm saying that these other midrange matchups are no longer as favorable for you as they used to be.
Also, the EE wasn't lucky. I set that up several turns in advance, putting it back on top of my library with a Brainstorm to protect it from discard. I wasn't expecting the Sylvan Library to show up and cause it to be a blowout 2-for-1, but it still wasn't "lucky". I got to see his decklist before the match, and prepared a sideboard plan to beat what I thought his postboard configuration was going to be. Regardless, that's not really a discussion I want to go too deep into right now, so I'll leave it at that.
I understand your points but it doesn't help me choosing which deck I should test next haha(I played Stoneblade and BUG Shardless in the past, Miracles for a few years, I tried 4c Control on MTGO, now I am trying Grixis Pyromancer and i hesitate between your list or TheArtchitect list of Esper Mentor, UWr Miracles or some random home brews).
Despite all this, I still don't know if the deck simply performed poorly in those 2 tournaments because of all the weaknesses you pointed out or because it was not heavily played/not played by a lot of good players like it is on MTGO.
Again, I didn't mean to offend you or minimize your skill (that is why I said no offense and "lucky" with " " ). Despite your sideboard plan and your brainstorm protection, it was because still a bit lucky to win with that since a) you may not draw EE at the right time b) he may not have 2 2ccm at the same time on the battlefield c) few people play Library and very few play Baby Jace so winning against 4c Control on the back of EE is extremely rare.
(Btw his manabase is way worse than classic version since he is playing 2 Wasteland and only one Volcanic Island)
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