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Thread: [Deck] Czech Pile

  1. #61
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    Re: [Primer] Czech Pile

    In my opinion, the match up "VS delver" is good. This is why we play 4c.
    But there is some window for delver , such as TNN ,wasteland.

  2. #62

    Re: [Primer] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    There are so many ways to kill Delver already though, and we force through stuff by simply outgrinding them imo, not using blast on a FoW. Personally I'd just sideboard in one at most. I like Leo a bit more than Jace.

    I know Ark4n streams a lot, he's pretty good. https://www.twitch.tv/ark4n11



    Agree, they can certainly get under you.
    Thanks, did watch some stream yesterday and today and see roughly the same play pattern.

    I must say it is really hard to watch this guy, annoying and arrogant as hell.

    "Come on guys, never Lucky" "He is playing the bad Liliana (of the veil), we are good.""Oh my gooood"

  3. #63

    Re: [Primer] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by grim confident View Post
    In my opinion, the match up "VS delver" is good. This is why we play 4c.
    But there is some window for delver , such as TNN ,wasteland.
    Yeah i didn't mean to sound condecending
    Of course delver decks vill have nutdraws, doubble delver, daze, stifle, wastelands, etc - that hardly any fair deck can beat. I mean, that is delver-deck's strength.
    But I can't think of any other fair blue legacy deck that has such a strong maindeck versus delver.

  4. #64
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    Re: [Primer] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    Thanks, did watch some stream yesterday and today and see roughly the same play pattern.

    I must say it is really hard to watch this guy, annoying and arrogant as hell.

    "Come on guys, never Lucky" "He is playing the bad Liliana (of the veil), we are good.""Oh my gooood"
    Haha, yeah I agree, I watch on mute sometimes I don't like that attitude either, but he streams the deck the most I think.

    I lost to Grixis Delver too last night fwiw, it happens.

    Small recap because why not

    R1 vs Esper Deathblade

    G1 I Deluge away a SfM and TNN, but he gets another TNN down followed by a Tombstalker. I drop to a low life total, but am able to land a Jace to bounce the Stalker, the TNN then goes after him rather than my life total, another Jace bounces the stalker again and eats it to the TNN too but buys me time (I'm at 4 life this whole time), I then Brainstorm into an Edict and Snapcaster and it's easy from there.

    G2 He plays out a lot of guys, 2 DRS, a SfM, TNN and 2 Snaps which counter a Jace and Leovold, but they were bait as I had a Marsh Casualties in my hand and lots of land, so am able to then resolve it around Flusterstorm kicked. My hand is all removal after that and it's easy to lock up.

    1-0

    R2 vs Grixis Delver

    G1 I'm on the play, but can't find any cheap removal with cantrips and slowly succumb to a Delver and DRS after Kommands and Deluges get countered.

    G2 is how we want the matchup to play, I have all the removal in the world.

    G3 he gets two quick delvers that flip and hit me twice, putting me really low. I need to Deluge them, going to 2 life, then FoW a Forked Bolt. I'm at 1 life for ~5 turns killing him with a DRS (and no green mana, can't fetch). I find a Trop, he find a Ponder which finds a Forked bolt and Stifles the DRS ability to gain life.

    1-1

    R3 vs Elves

    G1 isn't very exciting, I cantrip to find Leo and get him, but don't have a FoW for a No on turn 3.

    G2 I have a new Lili t2 which eats his T1 play, followed by all the removal and an ult locks it up.

    G3 I keep a 1 lander, which has Ponder, Brainstorm, Flusterstorm, Delta, Marsh Casualties, SCM and a Fatal Push. I considered leaving up Fluster to eot Brainstorm and find a second land, but Ponder instead. I get punished and he goes off with Glimpse T2. Interested to hear if you guys would have held up BS + Fluster there?

    1-2

    R4 vs BR Reanimator

    G1 I fow a Looting and he discards the rest of my hand, but the flashback of the looting doesn't find any fatties. I draw into a couple of Strix which beat down. He gets a Chancellor eventually, but Bolt and Kommand finish it.

    G2 He has a T1 Chancellor otp through a Surgical, but I have a couple of Strix and Jace in hand. Strix comes down T3, Jace T5 and it's easy from there.

    2-2

    Not hugely exciting, the G3 of Elves is bugging me a lot, feel like I should have left up the fluster.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  5. #65

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Against Elves I think the safe line is always kill the first couple of elves you see. In this scenario I would probably Fatal Push his play and Ponder in my next turn (also dig one more card to find the second land).

  6. #66
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by toletole View Post
    Against Elves I think the safe line is always kill the first couple of elves you see. In this scenario I would probably Fatal Push his play and Ponder in my next turn (also dig one more card to find the second land).
    Hm, you're right, I don't think I had a Push in hand then now I think back to it, sorry. My options were Ponder or hold up Fluster with Brainstorm if I want to.

    I'll include how I sideboarded vs each of the matchups too, good to get some discussion of this going.

    vs Esper Deathblade

    -4 Fow
    -3 Fatal Push (mistake! I didn't see DRS G1, but the Tombstalker should have told me it was the list from MKM Prague recently). I think it's OK to board one out but probably not more. Could see a Hymn or both being shaved on the draw.

    +1 Pyroblast
    +1 Red Elemental Blast
    +2 Flusterstorm
    +2 Marsh Casualties
    +1 Diabolic Edict

    vs Grixis Delver

    -2 Fow
    -2 Jace (despite what I said earlier )
    -2 Hymn

    +1 Pyroblast
    +2 Marsh Casualties
    +1 Diabolic Edict
    +2 Flusterstorm

    vs Elves

    otp
    -2 FoW
    -2 Kolaghan's Command
    -1 Gurmag Angler
    -3 Baleful Strix

    +2 Thoughtseize
    +2 Hymn
    +2 Marsh Casualties
    +2 Flusterstorm

    otd
    Go back to 4 fow and take out 2 hymns
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  7. #67
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    I played another four rounder at a LGS last night and moved a Flusterstorm to the main which was great. We have so much card selection that in matchups it's bad/dead in it can be shuffled away or pitched to a force without being punished most of the time, otherwise it's very high impact and helps our slightly unfavoured game one combo matchup. Matchups were ANT 2-1, Post MUD 2-1, BUG Delver 2-0 and Punishing Mav 2-0.

    Really liking this list at the moment. Only question lingering over the md is whether a Trop should be a Bayou to help support the Hymns. Are any of you on that? Not having BB early has come up a couple of times.

    4 Deathrite Shaman
    3 Baleful Strix
    4 Snapcaster Mage
    2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
    1 Gurmag Angler

    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Liliana, the Last Hope

    4 Ponder
    2 Hymn to Tourach
    1 Toxic Deluge

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    3 Fatal Push
    1 Lighning Bolt
    2 Kolaghan's Command
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Flusterstorm

    1 Island
    1 Swamp
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Volcanic Island
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Badlands
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Polluted Delta


    1 Flusterstorm
    2 Hymn to Tourach
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Pyroblast
    2 Marsh Casualties
    3 Surgical Extraction
    2 Thoughtseize
    1 Abrupt Decay
    Last edited by Whitefaces; 08-18-2017 at 07:02 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  8. #68
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    I gave your build a shot with 2 Hymns, cutting Counterspells and shaving an Abrupt Decay for the Liliana MD (which I already liked) and found I didn't cast a single Hymn that I liked at all the entire night. I'm preparing for an event this weekend and I'm going to cut the Hymns from the MD and SB again as I believe my local meta is not correct for those. For example I can be entirely sure I won't run into Storm the entire day, because we have 0 Storm players, but I can guarantee I'll run into Lands and Loam repeatedly. I also missed my second copy of Decay to get me out of spots against D&T where I was running low on artifact destruction, even with 2 KCommand and an Ancient Grudge out of the side.

    Liliana over performed, finally creating 27 2/2 zombies to swing over a Batterskull and a few other creatures against D&T when my deck had been decimated by an early Rest in Peace making half the cards we play look like garbage.

    I actually think I might give TNN a shot again as my meta is very midrange and fair and I want to have more threats.

  9. #69

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    I played another four rounder at a LGS last night and moved a Flusterstorm to the main which was great. We have so much card selection that in matchups it's bad/dead in it can be shuffled away or pitched to a force without being punished most of the time, otherwise it's very high impact and helps our slightly unfavoured game one combo matchup. Matchups were ANT 2-1, Post MUD 2-1, BUG Delver 2-0 and Punishing Mav 2-0.

    Really liking this list at the moment. Only question lingering over the md is whether a Trop should be a Bayou to help support the Hymns. Are any of you on that? Not having BB early has come up a couple of times.

    4 Deathrite Shaman
    3 Baleful Strix
    4 Snapcaster Mage
    2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
    1 Gurmag Angler

    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Liliana, the Last Hope

    4 Ponder
    2 Hymn to Tourach
    1 Toxic Deluge

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    3 Fatal Push
    1 Lighning Bolt
    2 Kolaghan's Command
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Flusterstorm

    1 Island
    1 Swamp
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Volcanic Island
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Badlands
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Polluted Delta


    1 Flusterstorm
    2 Hymn to Tourach
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Pyroblast
    2 Marsh Casualties
    3 Surgical Extraction
    2 Thoughtseize
    1 Abrupt Decay
    I play a very similar list to yours and I've found that 1 Trop 1 Bayou is definitely the right green configuration. I think I fetch for Bayou more often than Trop.

    As for Hymn vs CS having played both I prefer the Hymn build for a more tap out kind of play style. I might try MD Flusters or Pierce again but CS is just way too clunky.

    Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

  10. #70

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    I think that if you have a spot to give to cheap disruption, the flusterstorm, that you would be better off playing Thoughtseize. I do think that in a vacum Thoughtseize is better than Flusterstorm, though obviously there are times Flusterstorm is better. But this is a proactive, tap out control deck. You don't want to be in a situation of having to choose between holding up permission vs tapping out for Leovold or Jace or what have you, but also and time you can look at your opponents hand should be taken. I went down to 1 Thoughtseize myself, upping the amount of spot removal I have, but I'm going to be testing to get that number back up to 2.

  11. #71
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    To what Whitefaces is saying about the combo matchup more generally, I think that would actually be helped more by adding a more reliable beater than the 1-of Angler/Tombstalker. I don't even hate the idea of having a stock maindeck and just a 1-2 of Pyromancer/Tarmogoyf out of the board to give us better closing speed against combo. I've never felt short on interaction postboard, but I've definitely played draw-(cantrip)-go against combo because I was just hoping to find a threat to end a game once I'd stripped their hand. Deathrite and Snapcaster are really only good clocks in multiples, so having access to the extra threats seems at least worth discussing.

  12. #72

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Instead of tarmogofy or YP, why not play Vendillion Clique as a post board threat vs. combo? Unlike the other two it actually does something to disrupt their combo besides beating face. Also running 1-2 MB leovold helps your combo match up a lot.

  13. #73
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by pointicus View Post
    Instead of tarmogofy or YP, why not play Vendillion Clique as a post board threat vs. combo? Unlike the other two it actually does something to disrupt their combo besides beating face. Also running 1-2 MB leovold helps your combo match up a lot.
    I'm suggesting the addition of a Pyromancer/Tarmogoyf-esque creature because the the deck's primary problem against combo isn't a lack of interaction. Do you find yourself losing lots of games on turns 1-3 because you just don't have enough disruption? My experience is that the first attempt is pretty easy to stop, but that the stock list is leaning very heavily on either finding Leovold or assembling a critical mass of Snapcasters and Deathrites to end the game by turn 6 or 7 when the combo deck can try to win again. Pyromancer and Tarmogoyf are cheap enough that they're plausible turn 2 plays, and they end the game very quickly when the opponent can't remove them. Clique is fine, and Leovold is even quite good, but neither makes people dead in the ideal timeframe.

  14. #74

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    I haven't had a large problem in closing games against combo, but I don't think you want to use sideboard slots on YP and Goyf as beaters for the combo match up. I am not even sure that Goyf and YP are impressive beaters when you're playing against something like storm or SnT. But if you really considering SB slots for YP and Goyf, I would cut 1-2 baleful strix and play them in the main rather than the board.

  15. #75
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by toletole View Post
    Against Elves I think the safe line is always kill the first couple of elves you see. In this scenario I would probably Fatal Push his play and Ponder in my next turn (also dig one more card to find the second land).
    These are my thoughts as well. I'm normally on Blade decks, which means I have a very slow game, but my win rate since coming back to legacy is a clean 11-0 against Elves against a variety of players in tournament/league matches. The first thing to do is realize they can win T2, so you always leave interaction up or cut their mana (by killing a guy.) They get some pretty awkward draws, so even an aggressive Kill + wasteland can set them back pretty hard when they had 3 elves, GSZ, Bayou, NO.

    In your example, you'd have a dead Elf and they *couldn't* go off because Dude + Glimpse is all of their mana, so they'd have to wait. Now you ponder into land, leave up flusterstorm (you dug 5 cards, which is ~90% chance.) Brainstorm if they don't do anything T3 on their turn, untap T3 and start trying to lay a threat with FStorm up at all times until you draw a force or have them at an empty board (and even then... be careful if they're at 5 mana.)

    Second thing to do is to leave your Forces for NO, natural Hoof, or a game ending GSZ. I normally let Glimpse resolve [unless I have a plethora of counters] and look for a way to grind them out (though as I'm usually a blade deck I have the option of stalling into SoFaI or Jitte.) While letting Glimpse resolve can be dangerous, they do fizzle *a lot* and if you have a sweeper in hand, you can guarantee you'll not only hit the big thing if they glimpse into it, but you'll also have the sweeper to reset things. Note: Peruse the Elves thread and you'll notice that they often talk about how using Glimpse to draw your counters can clear the way for the win. You want to read their hand/line and figure out where your counters are most effective. Often their Glimpse is to get you to leave their first NO alone since they gain CA anyway. It doesn't matter if they have 3 elves if they can't win. It does matter if they hit you for 48 damage while you aren't looking because you were worried about their CA. They're not the control deck here, so them getting CA is often negated by your own.

    Third thing, make sure your sideboard hate also hits them. Run a cage in the side for the grave + elves decks. Run an E-Plague as one of your sweepers if you can. If you have SB V-Cliques, consider them. Just like with any combo deck, you want density of interaction. Bring in Pithing needle if you have it, shut off Wirewood or Quirion if you need to.

    Always remember you can lose T2 and that they are a non-blue combo deck. Every chance you get to interact with them you should; because the longer the game goes, the more you'll hit your consistency and they're bound to run into a block of unusable cards at some point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

  16. #76
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    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Quote Originally Posted by pointicus View Post
    I haven't had a large problem in closing games against combo, but I don't think you want to use sideboard slots on YP and Goyf as beaters for the combo match up. I am not even sure that Goyf and YP are impressive beaters when you're playing against something like storm or SnT. But if you really considering SB slots for YP and Goyf, I would cut 1-2 baleful strix and play them in the main rather than the board.
    One of the main reasons to play Pile is that it's the best Strix deck, and Strix is one of the best cards available in creature matchups. If I were interested in cutting it for a better clock I'd be inclined to just play Delver. This approach might not jive with your intuition about how a deck should be built, but I think it's theoretically sound, it's consistent with my experience, and at least worth testing.

  17. #77

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    If anybody is bored and wants to see me punt alot on MTGO I will upload my games here:

    PLaylist

    Maybe there are some interesting situations worth discussing.

  18. #78

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    So at.least on modo I have seen an uptick of troublesome permanents, which are really hard to deal with once resolved. Examples

    Blood Moon from Grixis control or UWr decks
    Ground Seal from Storm
    Sylvan Library from TurboDephts, Aluren, Mirror, BUGx in general
    Liliana, the last hope from Tempo, grindy Midrange decks
    Nissa/Choke from Elves

    This might be a resüonse to 4cs strong presence online. What would you guys do to fight it? I think the best options in my mind are:

    1. Discard, though Hymn is not reliable and TS is not to good in Grindy MUs, plus they can always topdeck, cantrip into it
    2. Re-add 1-2 spell pierce after it has been cut from most lists
    3. Add a second decay again

    Any other suggestions/opinions on this?

  19. #79

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    I would consider Engineered Explosives in sideboard. It is very versatile card for me.

  20. #80

    Re: [DTB] Czech Pile

    Not sure if this has been asked before, for those who are playing 2 hymns in the main and 2 in the side, how would you approach the reanimator matchups with your discards. I know it depends on the game state, if drs is in play, if you had previously thoughtseized the opponent. Just would like to hear the general consensus.

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