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Thread: [Primer] Dredge

  1. #381
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    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    I top8'd Finnish Legacy Nationals last Saturday with:

    4 Breakthrough
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Cabal Therapy
    2 Careful Study
    4 Cephalid Coliseum
    4 City of Brass
    4 Faithless Looting
    4 Gemstone Mine
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    4 Ichorid
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 Lotus Petal
    4 Narcomoeba
    3 Putrid Imp
    4 Stinkweed Imp

    Sideboard:
    1 Ashen Rider
    1 Dread Return
    1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
    4 Leyline of the Void
    1 Lotus Petal
    2 Nature's Claim
    2 Silent Gravestone
    3 Wispmare

    Given that Storm is always underplayed in paper whereas Depths variants are not, I think -1 Iona -1 Void +2 Leyline of Sanctity is the way to go in the future. Biggest worry I have going forward is Mentor, possibly UW Blade as well, running 2-3 Rips/Containment Priest and 5-6 Forces to protect them, do ya'll think boarding answers makes sense in those matchups instead of trying to go off turn 1/therapy them, play/draw?

  2. #382

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by jolssoni View Post
    I top8'd Finnish Legacy Nationals last Saturday with:
    Congrats!

    I'm thinking of playing Dredge again soon.

    What's the reason for your 1 Lotus Petal main over say Mana Confluence or 3rd Study?

    Why 3 Wispmare? Is there an uptick in Chalice decks running Leyline?

    In the past my plan to beat 2cc answers like RiP & Priest was to explode and play under them. Especially on the play. I found that better than diluting the main plan and trying to kill their hate through counters. We're the aggressor. We should race, not answer. My last list also ran 2 Thoughtseize in the SB, a proactive answer for slow hate and faster combos.

  3. #383
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    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Sunday morning, it's cold. Slight rain, when we meet the streets are still empty, not even last night's drunks are out in this weather. It doesn't get better going south, as we drive into a thick fog. Close to the Gotthard we enter a winter wonderland, over half a meter of snow. This will come to bite us on the way home. We discuss our deck choices. My only deck is Dredge. Krzysztof likes spicy things and is on UR Standstill with sideboard Sulfuric Vortex. But no one can top Youn when he proudly announces that there is no name for his deck, but he likes to call it Thoughtlash combo with the new Jace and 3 Latern of Insights. I have fond memories of donating Thoughtlashes to unsuspecting opponents, and they have to pick it up and read it, it's perfect, like gifting someone a boring book for Christmas.

    The tournament is in a simple house, looks more like a warehouse. The organizer seems very experienced.

    20 people, so 5 rounds and cut to Top 8. 1st place is 2 Force, 2nd place 2 Wasteland, 3-8 MKM coupons.

    R1: Enrico on Jeskai Mentor
    G1 I lose to Mentor after he has double Force and Spell Pierce for my first 3 plays: LED, Looting, Pimp.
    G2&3 he only has max. 1 Surgical
    1-0

    R2: Moon Stompy
    Didn't bring my Serenities. Great.
    G1 he gets an early Trinisphere into Hazoreth, then Ensnaring Bridge and Karn. I am just a little bit too slow.
    G2 I keep a hand with Looting, GGT, Thug, Whispmare, Land, Petal, Careful Study. Amazing. He has no Leyline so I go Land -> Study, discard 2 dredgers, Petal -> Looting but he has FAERIE MACABRE. I proceed to do nothing the rest of the game. Later I cast another Looting and have the choice to discard 2 dredgers again or play around another Faerie. Of course he has it when I discard both dredgers, but it was too late anyway. Still, a punt.
    1-1

    R3: Adriano on Eldrazi Stompy. I know for a fact he is on Eldrazi as Krzysztof lost to him in R2.
    G1: On the play LED -> Breakthrough -> Looting, flip my deck. He concedes when I cast Therapy. This is why you sleeve this deck.
    G2: He opens with Leyline and Chalice on 1. Pretty good, except that I have Whispmare, the perfect answer to his board. We play back and forth a bit, he exiles 3 Bridges by playing Endless One on 0, but then I cast Hogaak off of 2 Ichorids. Hogaak is bigger than the Eldrazis and his only out is finding back to back Reality Smashers, which he doesn't.
    2-1

    R4: Sascha aka eheh_dude on RUG Delver
    I am a big fan of Sascha's stream so this is my highlight of the tournament.
    G1: I do some dredging, he flips T1 delver with bolt. I have bridges in the yard, and he stares at the ceiling for a long time. I ask him if he's thinking or praying, to which he responds that praying is useless, and bolts my face. This tells me he's racing (he could've bolted his own delver to remove the bridges), so I Cabal Therapy him and name Bolt. As expected he has the second one and proceeds to lose to hasty horrors.
    G2: T1 Delver, natural flip and Surgical. He tells me this is the only way to win in this matchup. I ask him if he doesn't play Cages in the SB, he tells me no. Still I leave in my single Ingot Chewer as he has EE and could have Tormod's.
    G3: My notes only consist of 2 informations: 1) The only life change I recorded was him going to 19. 2) At one point I wrote his hand down: Fiery Islet, EE, Volcanic, TNN, Delver, Bolt. This is not a hand that wins against dredge.
    3-1

    R5: ID
    3-1-1

    Youn is also locked for Top 8. Krzysztof is convinced his breakers are too bad but plays it out anyway, at 2-2. He proceeds to play the most epic game of the evening against my R1 opponent. He is behind, but manages to stabilize the board with a hail mary move of sudden shocking a mentor and Snapcaster -> Echoing Truth the tokens. Nothing much happens for a few turns, except he draws Sulfuric Vortex into Sulfuric Vortex into Mountain, while being on 4 life to his opponent's ~20 life. His opponent narsets into Magmatic Sinkhole to stop the attacking Factory after taking a few hits. Krzysztof draws out all the answers with Grim Lavamancer, Snapcaster, etc. With his opponent on 4 and himself on 2, he plays Vortex. His opponent laughs, a bit confused. He brainstorms, finding 3 lands. Vortex resolves. Krzysztof plays the second Vortex. Blank stare from the other side of the table, the crowd goes wild.

    He makes Top 8.

    All of us made it.

    Top 8: Youn, on Thoughtlash combo!
    G1: I dredge half my deck without finding anything but a single Ichorid, which he swords, and a Narcomoeba. I die soon after he resolves Thoughtlash.
    G2: Same as G1, except he finds RiP after ~8 turns.

    Krzysztof lost 2 quick games against my R2 opponent (Moon Stompy).
    Youn ends up being the next snack for Moon Stompy and we head home.


    +
    The tournament was organized very well, thank you!
    Thanks to all the players, I had a great time playing
    Whispmare
    Hogaak being an 8/8, simply great design

    -
    Prismatic Vista only fetching basics (this is for you Youn)
    Confusing route back through small mountain towns and heaps of snow
    Me dropping my coffee two seconds after buying it

    P.S. My list: 13 lands, 12 dredgers, 4 LED/Narc/Ich/BfB/Therapy/Looting/PImp, 3 Breakthrough, 2 Study, 1 Hogaak (8/8), 1 Petal. SB: 3 LotV, 2 Leyline of Sanctity, 1 Silent Gravestone/DR/Ashen Rider/Ingot Chewer/Nature's Claim, 4 Whispmazing, 1 Petal.

  4. #384
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    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Congrats on the Top 8! I wouldn't even know how to approach that matchup lol. I've never seen it in person.


    -----------

    I've noticed more individuals playing Creeping Chills, but I don't actually understand the advantage of it. It seems like another "dead" card if we open with it. And it doesn't facilitate what we want to be doing i.e. discarding/drawing, its not even a black creature for Ichorid.



    EDIT: 420
    WESTCOAST
    DREDGE Playlist

  5. #385
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    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    There are two things in favor of Creeping Chill:
    1) It's great against Delver and Chalice, since it's uncountreable and makes it difficult for them to race.
    2) The London mulligan changed how we approach opening hands significantly. Before, you would keep a solid hand of lands, Imp, dredgers, but now it's often correct to simply mull into explosive LED hands. Effectively, ~40% of your hand is dead anyway, so Chill is not too bad.

    I have not tried Chill myself, but point 2) seems wrong or more inconsistent. Against a lot of matchups it's great to have a backup drawspell or Imp in case they have an answer to the first one. I played 4 Imps, inspired by MTGO player THE_DADDY (Pingu on the discord). Attacking for 2 is often relevant, it flashes back Therapy, convokes out Hogaak and is a permanent discard outlet. Feels really strong right now, I would always play a drawspell into blue mana to bait a counter. A resolved Imp is very problematic for some decks. It's also great when you have stranded Ichorids or Bridges in your hand.


    Something else:
    I have trouble deciding when to keep Therapy hands. By that I mean hands with Therapy, 2 lands and a 2-drop like Narc or Thug. The idea is to T1 Therapy, T2 flash it back and win from there. However, Thug has to put itself on top of your library, which isn't great.
    Thoughts on that?

  6. #386

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Hi,

    I played against an interesting Dredge version utilizing Fiery Islet and Insolent Neonate.
    The full decklist is not available to me but I think it should/could look something like this:

    4 Cephalid Coliseum
    4 Fiery Islet
    4 Gemstone Mine

    4 Insolent Neonate
    4 Careful Study
    4 Faithless Looting
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond

    4 Street Wraith
    4 Ichorid
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Narcomoeba

    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug

    Sideboard: 15
    4 Leyline of the Void
    4 Chain of Vapor
    2 Silent Gravestone
    2 Unmask
    2 Lotus Petal
    1 Leyline of Sanctity

    I like the idea of having more utility lands like Coliseum and Insolent Neonate maybe is an upgrade to Putrid Imp to make the deck faster.
    The deck becomes faster and more consistent with this change but loses the ability to cast cards like Nature's Claim or Serenity.

    What do you guys think?

  7. #387

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by Andifeated View Post
    Hi,

    I played against an interesting Dredge version utilizing Fiery Islet and Insolent Neonate.
    The deck hits a top 8 at GP Bologna.

    2 Insolent Neonate
    2 Street Wraith
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Ichorid
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    3 Breakthrough
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Careful Study
    4 Faithless Looting
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 City of Brass
    1 Mana Confluence
    3 Fiery Islet
    4 Cephalid Coliseum
    4 Gemstone Mine

    Sideboard:
    4 Chain of Vapor
    2 Dread Return
    1 Flame-Kin Zealot
    1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Lotus Petal
    1 Shenanigans

    Wish to know his sideboarding strategies. The Dread Return targets seems good only against combo and maybe few other decks, but probably they're good even against fair decks to win early when on the play. I hope for a report to know these things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andifeated View Post
    What do you guys think?
    The decklist seems built to play against Surgical Extraction and seems a little more resistant against Faerie Macabre.
    Last edited by Alex_UNLIMITED; 12-04-2019 at 10:24 AM.

  8. #388

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex_UNLIMITED View Post
    Wish to know his sideboarding strategies. The Dread Return targets seems good only against combo and maybe few other decks, but probably they're good even against fair decks to win early when on the play. I hope for a report to know these things.


    The decklist seems built to play against Surgical Extraction and seems a little more resistant against Faerie Macabre.
    I'm not the person who piloted the list, but the reasoning behind it when compared with the stock list that is used 99% of the time on MODO is simply giving up all non-UR colors in order to gain something that probably should have been considered earlier, which is another land that can act as a draw effect in Fiery Islet.

    All you lose are PImp and sideboard cards for the most part, and gaining access to a much worse but at least two colored Cephalid Coliseum is pretty nice. Chain of Vapor is really all you need right now because of how prominent Leyline is and the random utility it has over Claim and the like. I was first surprised about the inclusion of 5c lands to fill up the mana base at first, but I guess it makes sense to be able to randomly hardcast Therapy and Dredgers at times. If that wasn't important you could play something like a singleton basic Island, Volcanic Island and a few blue Fetches instead.


    I topped a 6-round tournament this weekend with a UB list without LED and with Force of Will among other things. I've grown pretty tired of that same 75 everyone usually copy/pastes nowadays and I don't like its all-in nature very much anyway, so I played something I'd been brewing with with for a long time that fits my playstyle more and that's more resilient to hate, because I always expect a lot of it in my meta. My only loss was to a Turn 1 Veil of Summer into turn 2 kill on the play in g1 and a mulligan to four in g2 to TES (in which I could have found a FoW after his Echo of Eons to instantly win) and I beat Eldrazi (2-0), UWgr Miracles (2-0), BUG Zenith Snowko with Natural Order (2-0) and UW Stoneblade twice (2-0/2-1) going 5-1. I can provide some more info if anyone's interested, but I was slacking a lot on my notes.

  9. #389

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by Izor View Post
    I'm not the person who piloted the list, but the reasoning behind it when compared with the stock list that is used 99% of the time on MODO is simply giving up all non-UR colors in order to gain something that probably should have been considered earlier, which is another land that can act as a draw effect in Fiery Islet.

    All you lose are PImp and sideboard cards for the most part, and gaining access to a much worse but at least two colored Cephalid Coliseum is pretty nice. Chain of Vapor is really all you need right now because of how prominent Leyline is and the random utility it has over Claim and the like. I was first surprised about the inclusion of 5c lands to fill up the mana base at first, but I guess it makes sense to be able to randomly hardcast Therapy and Dredgers at times. If that wasn't important you could play something like a singleton basic Island, Volcanic Island and a few blue Fetches instead.


    I topped a 6-round tournament this weekend with a UB list without LED and with Force of Will among other things. I've grown pretty tired of that same 75 everyone usually copy/pastes nowadays and I don't like its all-in nature very much anyway, so I played something I'd been brewing with with for a long time that fits my playstyle more and that's more resilient to hate, because I always expect a lot of it in my meta. My only loss was to a Turn 1 Veil of Summer into turn 2 kill on the play in g1 and a mulligan to four in g2 to TES (in which I could have found a FoW after his Echo of Eons to instantly win) and I beat Eldrazi (2-0), UWgr Miracles (2-0), BUG Zenith Snowko with Natural Order (2-0) and UW Stoneblade twice (2-0/2-1) going 5-1. I can provide some more info if anyone's interested, but I was slacking a lot on my notes.
    Hi,

    Very interessing to modificate the whole list even without LED's. Please give us some more insight in your list and the thoughts about it.

    Personaly was thinking aswell longtime in brewing something new with the dredge theme, which suits my personal playstile more.

    Thanks in advance!

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

  10. #390

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    What I dislike about the current stock list is the fact that's it's a massive glass cannon with little to no resilience against true graveyard hate. The natures of the cards LED and to a lesser extent Breakthrough and the 8 Careful Studies is that they give you percentage points where and when you're already advantaged, which is when there's no graveyard hate or to a lesser extent Force of Will involved (referring to how terrible it is for us if our Careful Study/Breakthrough gets Forced with LED sacked), but in the face of true hate they turn into actively terrible magic cards. LED is straight up the worst card in the deck if there's a Leyline, Rip or Tormod's Crypt effect in play and it is also very risky in the face of Surgical, because it always gives your opponent perfect information on whether they're supposed to hit the Dredgers or the meat.

    So I've been trying to find ways to change the deck in a way that doesn't compromise my g1 win percentage against fair decks too much while being significantly better against various forms of hate post board. I was always going to lose percentage points against other fast combo decks like TES or Reanimator this way, but they're tough matchups even for the LED lists and they can be addressed in our sideboard, so I still wanted to try it out.

    The first decision then was that LED needed to go and that Breakthrough shouldn't be relied on. You'll see that I still play 2 of the latter, but that's mainly to have enough cards for FoW. They're always boarded out against anything but combo. The second realization was that Careful Study effects are pretty terrible against graveyard hate as well, because they're bad cantrips when looking for an answer to RiP/Leyline, forcing you to give up card advantage and exile cards you'd want access to later. They're also terrible against Surgical, because once again they give the opponent full info on what to go for. That's where I decided to play no more than 4 of them and cut red entirely in the process. Assuming Chain of Vapor as my go-to anti-hate in the board I was also pretty much UB at that point. That gives me access to an actual mana base that doesn't have to play the worst lands that see any kind of play in Legacy.

    Back to the question on what's good or bad against hate, the solution to my issue always had to start with Putrid Imp. It's by far the best discard outlet in the face of any kind of hate, because it does everything right that LED and Study effects don't: It is no card disadvantage and lets you start Dredging one full turn earlier by casting it turn 1 and removing Leyline in your t2 upkeep, it lets you carefully play around Crypt effects by slow-dredging until they are forced to sac it (which most of the time they'll not do correctly), and they 100% leave your opponent in the dark about what you still have in your hand, which means that your opponent might make wrong decisions with their Surgical by either hitting a Dredger when you have another one left or vice versa. In fact, after testing with UB lists for a long time my issue was simply that I wanted more PImps than I was allowed to play, also due to the fact that you're kinda struggling to find anything playable beyond the first 8 discard effects (PImp and Study). After being disappointed by Hapless Researcher I decided to add White to the deck just for Tireless Tribe as my PImps 5-8. I didn't expect that to work initially, but it overperformed so massively in its role that I stuck with the idea.

    And the last unconventional choice I made is the card that puts all those ties together: Brainstorm. Usually a much worse draw effect than anything that discards at the end of resolution, that drawback is not a factor if you start the game with a discard dork. Unlike Breakthrough it can also be cast in addition to another Brainstorm or Breakthrough off of 2 lands on turn 2. And most importantly, it is great in the face of hate, enabling you to search for things in the same fashion normal Legacy decks also do, and it provides random utility against Surgical hitting your Dredgers as well. I play 8 fetchlands, which maximizes its utility whenever you're not already dredging. Speaking of fetchlands, I cannot stress how much random utility they generate in this deck. First, you always mulligan a lot, and the cards you put back are always graveyard-relevant cards. Shuffling them back in before starting your dredging is actually a huge deal when compared to the common scenario where you know you'll never find those 2 Narcos you put back again in the game. Second, they thin your deck. Third, they let you actually play the long game with hardcast Stinkweed Imps and Golgari Thugs instead of taking 2-3 damage or losing your lands all the time. The only drawback is that you have to be somewhat careful to fetch the few duals before you might dredge them away, leaving you without anything to get back. Because you usually only have and need 1-2 Lands and you usually only dredge 4-6 before sacrificing your second fetch it doesn't come up very often, though.

    That said, this is the list I'm playing.

    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Tundra
    4 Cephalid Coliseum

    4 Putrid Imp
    3 Tireless Tribe
    4 Careful Study
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Breakthrough
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    3 Golgari Thug
    4 Cabal Therapy
    2 Dread Return
    4 Bridge From Below
    4 Narcomoeba
    3 Ichorid

    SB:
    4 Chain of Vapor
    1 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    1 Silent Gravestone
    4 Leyline of the Void
    1 Ashen Rider

    After my recent testing and influenced by the fact that my only loss was to TES, I'm considering cutting into the holy grail that is Cabal Therapy and playing an Iona main to have something that actually does something against UG Omnishow and TES, both of which play 4 Veils main nowadays. With 2 Dread Returns main I still should have enough sac outlets. I'd also consider swapping Ashen Rider for Terastodon or Woodfall Primus for the same reason that is Veil of Summer. I also never liked Silent Gravestone because of how unreliable it is as anti-hate and because it shuts off your own DRs, and I think the Daze should be something else too, so I'd probably play 2 Mindbreak Traps over them. I might try to write a littl report on the tournament I played later, provided I can remember enough of it/my notes are enough.

    And before anyone asks, I'm not a fan of Hogaak in the deck. I don't think this deck should ever need a vanilla 8/8 to be able to win pre-board. You have Zombies and Ichorids to do that job as well as DR to make 15/15 regenerators instead. Hogaak is only good when you hit two of them, which enables you to make infinite Zombies, but as I said, that doesn't help at all against the matchups where you get Veil'd and then die on their turn and it is very unlineky to happen to begin with. DR at least lets you guaranteed turn your meat into Zombies where Hogaak gets stuck in your graveyard with 2 Narcos in play and you not finding the necessary Therapies and/or Bridges to cast it.

  11. #391

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by Izor View Post
    I'm considering cutting into the holy grail that is Cabal Therapy...
    This got me thinking. I decided to do a rebuild starting from mono-U, and it ended up looking like this:

    4 Cephalid Coliseum
    3 Island
    4 Misty Rainforest
    3 Prismatic Vista

    4 Phantasmagorian

    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    2 Shambling Shell

    4 Bridge from Below

    4 Piracy Charm

    4 Careful Study
    2 Breakthrough
    4 Brainstorm

    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Ichorid

    2 Dread Return

    Sideboard:
    3 Veil of Summer
    4 Spell Pierce
    4 Nature's Claim
    3 Reverent Silence
    1 Forest


    The basic lands could be duals, but I figured I would add some protection vs. Wasteland. The Piracy Charms could be Mind Bombs or Hapless Researchers or something else that helps with discarding. I tried looking for cheap effects to discard in Blue, but there were not many. I think the deck misses red the most here, with not Faithless or Firestorm possibilities.

    There aren't really any answers to Containment Priest in this list right now though, so I might go with Contagion (can work to kill our own Narcomoebas as well).

    I feel like I covered a lot of the bases from LED dredge, though without the explosive Looting + LED possibility.

    I might want to go 4x on Veil of Summer. I also really want to jam in Disrupt, but I don't think it is good enough.

    Daze is another card that I have considered, as are Faerie Macabre and Street Wraith. Force of Vigor is also probably better than Reverent Silence.

    I splashed for green instead of other colors due to Nature's Claim and Veil, but I did not investigate white very deeply when making this list, so there could be good options that I am missing.

    What cards am I missing that could help out?
    Last edited by Whoshim; 02-09-2020 at 04:37 AM.

  12. #392
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    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by Izor View Post
    What I dislike about the current stock list is the fact that's it's a massive glass cannon with little to no resilience against true graveyard hate. The natures of the cards LED and to a lesser extent Breakthrough and the 8 Careful Studies is that they give you percentage points where and when you're already advantaged, which is when there's no graveyard hate or to a lesser extent Force of Will involved (referring to how terrible it is for us if our Careful Study/Breakthrough gets Forced with LED sacked), but in the face of true hate they turn into actively terrible magic cards. LED is straight up the worst card in the deck if there's a Leyline, Rip or Tormod's Crypt effect in play and it is also very risky in the face of Surgical, because it always gives your opponent perfect information on whether they're supposed to hit the Dredgers or the meat.

    So I've been trying to find ways to change the deck in a way that doesn't compromise my g1 win percentage against fair decks too much while being significantly better against various forms of hate post board. I was always going to lose percentage points against other fast combo decks like TES or Reanimator this way, but they're tough matchups even for the LED lists and they can be addressed in our sideboard, so I still wanted to try it out.

    The first decision then was that LED needed to go and that Breakthrough shouldn't be relied on. You'll see that I still play 2 of the latter, but that's mainly to have enough cards for FoW. They're always boarded out against anything but combo. The second realization was that Careful Study effects are pretty terrible against graveyard hate as well, because they're bad cantrips when looking for an answer to RiP/Leyline, forcing you to give up card advantage and exile cards you'd want access to later. They're also terrible against Surgical, because once again they give the opponent full info on what to go for. That's where I decided to play no more than 4 of them and cut red entirely in the process. Assuming Chain of Vapor as my go-to anti-hate in the board I was also pretty much UB at that point. That gives me access to an actual mana base that doesn't have to play the worst lands that see any kind of play in Legacy.

    Back to the question on what's good or bad against hate, the solution to my issue always had to start with Putrid Imp. It's by far the best discard outlet in the face of any kind of hate, because it does everything right that LED and Study effects don't: It is no card disadvantage and lets you start Dredging one full turn earlier by casting it turn 1 and removing Leyline in your t2 upkeep, it lets you carefully play around Crypt effects by slow-dredging until they are forced to sac it (which most of the time they'll not do correctly), and they 100% leave your opponent in the dark about what you still have in your hand, which means that your opponent might make wrong decisions with their Surgical by either hitting a Dredger when you have another one left or vice versa. In fact, after testing with UB lists for a long time my issue was simply that I wanted more PImps than I was allowed to play, also due to the fact that you're kinda struggling to find anything playable beyond the first 8 discard effects (PImp and Study). After being disappointed by Hapless Researcher I decided to add White to the deck just for Tireless Tribe as my PImps 5-8. I didn't expect that to work initially, but it overperformed so massively in its role that I stuck with the idea.

    And the last unconventional choice I made is the card that puts all those ties together: Brainstorm. Usually a much worse draw effect than anything that discards at the end of resolution, that drawback is not a factor if you start the game with a discard dork. Unlike Breakthrough it can also be cast in addition to another Brainstorm or Breakthrough off of 2 lands on turn 2. And most importantly, it is great in the face of hate, enabling you to search for things in the same fashion normal Legacy decks also do, and it provides random utility against Surgical hitting your Dredgers as well. I play 8 fetchlands, which maximizes its utility whenever you're not already dredging. Speaking of fetchlands, I cannot stress how much random utility they generate in this deck. First, you always mulligan a lot, and the cards you put back are always graveyard-relevant cards. Shuffling them back in before starting your dredging is actually a huge deal when compared to the common scenario where you know you'll never find those 2 Narcos you put back again in the game. Second, they thin your deck. Third, they let you actually play the long game with hardcast Stinkweed Imps and Golgari Thugs instead of taking 2-3 damage or losing your lands all the time. The only drawback is that you have to be somewhat careful to fetch the few duals before you might dredge them away, leaving you without anything to get back. Because you usually only have and need 1-2 Lands and you usually only dredge 4-6 before sacrificing your second fetch it doesn't come up very often, though.

    That said, this is the list I'm playing.

    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Tundra
    4 Cephalid Coliseum

    4 Putrid Imp
    3 Tireless Tribe
    4 Careful Study
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Breakthrough
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    3 Golgari Thug
    4 Cabal Therapy
    2 Dread Return
    4 Bridge From Below
    4 Narcomoeba
    3 Ichorid

    SB:
    4 Chain of Vapor
    1 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    1 Silent Gravestone
    4 Leyline of the Void
    1 Ashen Rider

    After my recent testing and influenced by the fact that my only loss was to TES, I'm considering cutting into the holy grail that is Cabal Therapy and playing an Iona main to have something that actually does something against UG Omnishow and TES, both of which play 4 Veils main nowadays. With 2 Dread Returns main I still should have enough sac outlets. I'd also consider swapping Ashen Rider for Terastodon or Woodfall Primus for the same reason that is Veil of Summer. I also never liked Silent Gravestone because of how unreliable it is as anti-hate and because it shuts off your own DRs, and I think the Daze should be something else too, so I'd probably play 2 Mindbreak Traps over them. I might try to write a littl report on the tournament I played later, provided I can remember enough of it/my notes are enough.

    And before anyone asks, I'm not a fan of Hogaak in the deck. I don't think this deck should ever need a vanilla 8/8 to be able to win pre-board. You have Zombies and Ichorids to do that job as well as DR to make 15/15 regenerators instead. Hogaak is only good when you hit two of them, which enables you to make infinite Zombies, but as I said, that doesn't help at all against the matchups where you get Veil'd and then die on their turn and it is very unlineky to happen to begin with. DR at least lets you guaranteed turn your meat into Zombies where Hogaak gets stuck in your graveyard with 2 Narcos in play and you not finding the necessary Therapies and/or Bridges to cast it.
    Been trying this out. Love the tribes. Definitely screwed up a brainstorm interaction once. I still need to learn how to board appropriately with chain and force. In my pick up games I lost to D&T twice but I think it's a lot of 'I took a long break and punted some triggers'. I agree with daze and gravestone being meh, mostly from my past experience. Gravestone is probably better than daze tbh. I'll continue getting some games in. I'll probably mess with some numbers since I am used to not MD dread returns, and feel uncomfortable not maxing both thug and/or ichorid. Good list though!

    Any thoughts on white sb cards? Since the mana kind of supports it? It does kind of not fearless dredge.
    Last edited by ThomasDowd; 03-26-2020 at 12:28 AM.

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