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Thread: [Primer] Dredge

  1. #281

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=19165&d=321216&f=LE

    Check this list out.

    No Street Wraith but 2 Dread Return, Norn and Flamekin the the main :D

  2. #282
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    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    I'm glad to see our deck putting up results in my absence. Here are a couple thoughts from perusing those top 8's and 16's:

    --We're battling the same kind of Grixis Delver decks we were 18 months ago. We know we can beat these decks. These are the kind of decks that have a slow clock with Deathrite Shaman main (which we already know we can beat), and then battling Surgical Extraction post-board (which we can play around well enough to win one of two). Based on what I see, I don't envision that deck gaining anything we couldn't already defeat. So good work there.

    --Sure, colorless(ish) Stompy got a boost with Gravestone and other friends. Do you remember our problem with this deck? It was (a) a corner deck, and (b) one that relied on mulliganning to Leyline of the Void against us. I can't comment on (a) since I've been out of it but I'm willing to bet it's not as much of a threat as one would think, especially in the bigger bouts. Even with a couple more outs that are good vs other decks, the scare for them is real as it has always been. Don't let this deck discourage you from piloting Dredge.

    --Reanimator remains a stick in our craw, and that's true. In my extensive testing on MTGO, that Reanimator-favored environment, I had no problem maindecking a Faerie Macabre or two. Granted, this sounds like my proposal for Driven/Despair, but that matchup is extremely winnable. Remember my tenets for playing the matchup that I conveyed to you in the original primer. Your IRL opponents are going to have trouble with the rules variations that lean our way because (1) Reanimator opponents don't concern themselves with those rules nuances, and (2) it will be enough of a surprise to them to get you to the post-side games, which you should be at least an even favorite in.

    Heckle and/or slight. I'm back.

  3. #283

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Dredge just top8ed GP Birmingham! List can be found here: https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/...sts-2018-05-12

  4. #284
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    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    So dredge top8ed mkm rome, eternal weekend paris and now gp birmingham. That should be all big European legacy tournaments this year. Probably just some weird variance. A little bit unfortunate that it lost in the quarters every time.

  5. #285

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by Orim67 View Post
    So dredge top8ed mkm rome, eternal weekend paris and now gp birmingham. That should be all big European legacy tournaments this year. Probably just some weird variance. A little bit unfortunate that it lost in the quarters every time.
    It's good so we can keep being seen as the underdogs, few top8s a day keep the leylines away.

  6. #286

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    I also see that most of the winning lists play 13 land instead of 12.

    Is playing 1 more land really that much better?

    They are also playing 3 Firestorm instead of 4 in the side.

    You guys think that is enough?

    Personally I love Firestorm that is why I`m always playing 4 of them.

  7. #287

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by Vissah View Post
    I also see that most of the winning lists play 13 land instead of 12.

    Is playing 1 more land really that much better?

    They are also playing 3 Firestorm instead of 4 in the side.

    You guys think that is enough?

    Personally I love Firestorm that is why I`m always playing 4 of them.
    I play 13 lands because I play 4 Coliseums.
    If I would cut a coliseum, I'd play with 12 lands.

  8. #288

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by Vissah View Post
    I also see that most of the winning lists play 13 land instead of 12.

    Is playing 1 more land really that much better?

    They are also playing 3 Firestorm instead of 4 in the side.

    You guys think that is enough?

    Personally I love Firestorm that is why I`m always playing 4 of them.
    I'd judge more based on pilot experience than the differences between 12 and 13 lands.

  9. #289
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    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by Vissah View Post
    I also see that most of the winning lists play 13 land instead of 12.

    Is playing 1 more land really that much better?

    They are also playing 3 Firestorm instead of 4 in the side.

    You guys think that is enough?

    Personally I love Firestorm that is why I`m always playing 4 of them.
    I'd personally play 14 lands if I could squeeze the 14th land in. As for Firestorm, I haven't won any match ups when I used it in the past so I decided to cut them out entirely from my sideboard. I think playing 4 of the same sideboard cards is excessive unless your playing Leylines. I found out that 3 would usually be enough to me to dig for them if needed. But that's just based on my own experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey View Post
    We play an Eternal format. Any threat, unanswered, will be your ass in short order.

  10. #290
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    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    You can kind of do the math for the number of lands. Your best hands have either 1 or 2 lands, 13 lands give you the best odds to have such a number in your opening 7, something like 66%. These numbers are also not really saying too much, because there are definitely keepable hands without lands and having 3 lands isn't too bad if the rest of your hand is busted.

  11. #291

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Again thanks for all the great help from all you guys.

    I been playing the straight up Quad list from the beginning, because I wanted to get a feel for the deck and for Legacy in general, for about 5 months now.
    Now I`m starting to tweak the list a bit because with more experience I`m seeing stuff like I can cut a card here and gain something there. FOr me that is the fun part of playign Magic, tweaking your list to what you want it to be.

  12. #292
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    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    In case anyone wants it - video coverage of eventual T8 competitor Alexander Mertins. It's one of those time warp matches but better than nothing; esp with it being the win & in for T8

    R15 vs Grixis Delver
    https://youtu.be/BkL0z0EPu9Q?t=37m47s

  13. #293

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Thanks I was looking for that one 😃

  14. #294

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Hi, new to Dredge and I had a question about a particular interaction that pertains to "keeping priority".

    Consider an opening hand with 1 LED, 2 Street Wraith, and 2 random dredge cards, and 2 other things that aren't relevant.

    What I want to do on my first turn is this:
    1. Play LED
    2. Announce Cycling on a Street Wraith, paying 2 life
    3. Keep priority and announce Cycling on the second Wraith, paying 2 life
    4. Still keep priority, and sacrifice LED, discarding my hand
    5. Replace the two Wraith cycle draws with 2 dredges.

    Is this feasible?

  15. #295

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by Unspeakable Elvis View Post
    Hi, new to Dredge and I had a question about a particular interaction that pertains to "keeping priority".

    Consider an opening hand with 1 LED, 2 Street Wraith, and 2 random dredge cards, and 2 other things that aren't relevant.

    What I want to do on my first turn is this:
    1. Play LED
    2. Announce Cycling on a Street Wraith, paying 2 life
    3. Keep priority and announce Cycling on the second Wraith, paying 2 life
    4. Still keep priority, and sacrifice LED, discarding my hand
    5. Replace the two Wraith cycle draws with 2 dredges.

    Is this feasible?
    Assuming all resolve without a stifle effect, yes that is correct.

    Edit: And, since you weren't clear by just saying "announce", the Wraiths are in the graveyard before the LED activates while their cycle ability is on the stack, so they will be below the cards you discard. Might or might not matter for your question.
    Last edited by ronco; 05-17-2018 at 11:22 AM.
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    Look at the bright side, if Legacy becomes like Vintage all of us old dudes can get together, drink whiskey, and smoke cigars while we play the gentleman's format. Like an MtG speak-easy.
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  16. #296

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    So, I was testing this guy out online - and surprisingly, it was shockingly effective:

    //Mainboard

    4x Force of Will
    4x Golgari Grave-Troll
    4x Stinkweed Imp
    4x Narcomoeba
    4x Careful Study
    4x Faithless Looting
    4x Foil
    3x Prized Amalgam
    3x Bloodghast
    3x Cabal Therapy
    3x Bridge from Below
    1x Firestorm
    1x Ashen Rider
    1x Life from the Loam
    1x Dread Return

    4x Cephalid Coliseum
    4x Volcanic Island
    4x Underground Sea
    3x Tropical Island
    1x Riftstone Portal


    //Sideboard

    3 Faerie Macabre
    3 Silent Gravestone
    3 Chain of Vapor
    2 Ancient Grudge
    2 Firestorm
    2 Pithing Needle


    The deck has room for adjustments, but it was still balling. I think it has a ton of room to blossom, but this was pretty good in the games I tested with. It's much, much grindier than traditional, faster LED Dredge variants - but it's incredibly resilient. Key plays when testing were on-the-draw Foils where the dredger hit the hard before I dropped a land, which in turn was good because it gave me the ability to drop a land and trigger Bloodghast.

    Also: Dakmor Salvage was terrible in testing, and I've been fluctuating between Darkblast and no Darkblast. I think I want Darkblast lol.

  17. #297

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    So, I was testing this guy out online - and surprisingly, it was shockingly effective:

    //Mainboard

    4x Force of Will
    4x Golgari Grave-Troll
    4x Stinkweed Imp
    4x Narcomoeba
    4x Careful Study
    4x Faithless Looting
    4x Foil
    3x Prized Amalgam
    3x Bloodghast
    3x Cabal Therapy
    3x Bridge from Below
    1x Firestorm
    1x Ashen Rider
    1x Life from the Loam
    1x Dread Return

    4x Cephalid Coliseum
    4x Volcanic Island
    4x Underground Sea
    3x Tropical Island
    1x Riftstone Portal


    //Sideboard

    3 Faerie Macabre
    3 Silent Gravestone
    3 Chain of Vapor
    2 Ancient Grudge
    2 Firestorm
    2 Pithing Needle


    The deck has room for adjustments, but it was still balling. I think it has a ton of room to blossom, but this was pretty good in the games I tested with. It's much, much grindier than traditional, faster LED Dredge variants - but it's incredibly resilient. Key plays when testing were on-the-draw Foils where the dredger hit the hard before I dropped a land, which in turn was good because it gave me the ability to drop a land and trigger Bloodghast.

    Also: Dakmor Salvage was terrible in testing, and I've been fluctuating between Darkblast and no Darkblast. I think I want Darkblast lol.
    Ooh, that's an interesting take on things :) I think my biggest worry would be frequency of casting "important" spells - only 4 sources to cast Faithless/Firestorm seems low. Maybe consider Hapless Researcher over Faithless since there aren't LEDs?

    It also feels weird to uninitiated me to see Bloodghast without fetches (which would help with color-balance), but I see that it weakens Foil quite a lot. Maybe there's some middle ground between the two, or maybe adding Dazes to help bounce lands to hand? (Might shift the deck too much, though.)

  18. #298

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    This version of the deck feels like it would play more like old Extended "Friggorid" than anything else.

    For the unitiated...

    Except now it plays more counters and lands than a traditional list would these days. I'm all for not fixing what isn't broken, but what the heck. I do, however, think Foil is a good card in Dredge. It just needs be played in an extremely well-planned and tight list.

    I'll update the list after more testing.

  19. #299

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    I was tinkering around a lot last night with the list I've been working on. I underestimated how difficult it is to build a list using Foil as a resource, because you basically have to build your deck around it. It's not a big deal, because instead of rainbow lands, you're effectively using dual lands. The key is ensuring the dual lands can cast the majority of the cards in the deck. Since Foil can be pitched to Force of Will, this isn't too big of a deal. Some hands may not even have Foil in them, so maximizing the use of the lands in hand is something I'd like to take advantage of.

    I think the existing LED Dredge lists are good enough where (as most of us know), all you need to do is tailor a few cards here and there. Ultimately, the strength of the pilot and organizational methods with triggers and other abilities still makes the deck completely competitive. I think there are strengths and weaknesses to playing a variant like this, versus traditional lists.

    That being said, here's an updated list as a point of reference:

    4x Force of Will
    4x Golgari Grave-Troll
    4x Stinkweed Imp
    4x Narcomoeba
    4x Careful Study
    4x Faithless Looting
    4x Foil
    3x Bloodghast
    3x Prized Amalgam
    3x Cabal Therapy
    2x Bridge from Below
    2x Firestorm
    1x Dread Return
    1x Daze
    1x Life from the Loam

    4x Volcanic Island
    4x Tropical Island
    4x Steam Vents
    2x Cephalid Coliseum
    1x Barbarian Ring
    1x Riftstone Portal


    //Sideboard

    3 Faerie Macabre
    3 Silent Gravestone
    3 Chain of Vapor
    2 Ancient Grudge
    2 Firestorm
    2 Pithing Needle

  20. #300

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    This version of the deck feels like it would play more like old Extended "Friggorid" than anything else.

    For the unitiated...

    Except now it plays more counters and lands than a traditional list would these days. I'm all for not fixing what isn't broken, but what the heck. I do, however, think Foil is a good card in Dredge. It just needs be played in an extremely well-planned and tight list.
    I never quite understood why some Dredge players wanted to give up on speed and explosivity in order to add resiliency against disruption to their MD.
    Resiliency should belong to the post-board games, not the pre-board ones.
    Pre-board games are just about how consistently you can smoke your opponent - who's trying to do fair things most of the time - with the unfair shit Dredge does: no Legacy deck can realistically beat a triple Cabal Therapy and eight Zombies on turn 1. The reasons why we lose some of our G1s are variance (mulliganning into oblivion), faster decks (Reanimator, ANT, S&T), or soft-hate, possibly backed up by permission (DRS+FoW/Daze, double Plow/Terminus on a slow Icho start).
    The problem is that slowing the deck down means increasing Deathrite Shaman's efficiency - the best way to beat a DRS being to overload the shit out of him - losing in the process a large chunk of our advantage against fair decks G1. It also means grindier games, which leaves room for such cards as Stoneforge>Batterskull to clog the board up. It sure increases our odds to beat a combo deck - especially when they do not expect counters out of Dredge - but this comes at the cost of a steep decrease of our auto-wins G1.

    What I suggest, if you want to follow this kind of gameplay, is playing the traditional "LED-BT-Oops I just won" Dredge G1, then sideboard out all the pure "speed" (LED, BT, possibly Petals) to add permission and blow your opponent's sideboard-hate.
    Having access to Force in an efficient Dredge package has long been a wet dream for a lot of Dredge players, including myself. Had I found a reliable way to fit them in, I would most definitely have played them - but every single time I tried to, it just felt janky in the end.
    I'm really skeptical about Foil, albeit I do see the rationale behind it. It's seen some success in old UB Reanimator lists, but those lists do only rely on one critical card to be put in their GY. I think that, in Dredge, the cost (playing bilands instead of golden lands) is too high. You want U for CS/BT/Coliseum, R for FL, possibly B for hardcasted Therapies ; and you don't want to play fetches. Disrupting Shoal is arguably a bad Magic card, but if you add Gitaxian Probes to the mix it may be more reliable than Foil - Manaless has done it before.
    Be wary, though, for you have to consider very tightly what you want to counter. Surgical Extraction on Ichorid may sound scary, but if I have 4 Narcoes and 2 PA left in your deck, is it really worth blowing a counterspell on ? On the other hand, this innocuous T1 Aether Vial out of Death & Taxes means, if it resolves, that you'll never have a chance to counter the Containment Priest it may bring soon enough.
    An extra thing to be wary of is that if you run a counterspell package, you will probably find yourself back to the wall against Leyline of the Void, simply because it sounds unlikely that you'll ever find a way to fit counterspells, SB bullets for DR, and answers to LLotV in your SB.

    But well, have a nice time brewing and tell us how the deck treated you!

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