I basically play the same maindeck cards as you, except for the 3 PImps in your list that are 3 more Studies in mine.Originally Posted by Orim67
I love how 8 draw spells let me dig for wear/tears or Firestorms in g2, but I gotta respect those consistent results you have online.
I'm participating in a big event next week, so I'm not changing anything for now, but I will give the PImps a try in the future.
For me its not even a matter of PImp Vs. Careful Study rather than Street Wraith Vs. Careful Study. One is a redraw that allows you to circumvent countermagic while feeding Ichorid and providing some protection against DRS/Surgical (Ichorids and Narcos are still susceptible along with Cabal Therapies/Dread Return and Bridge from Below in the case of Surgical) while the other allows you to Draw(Dredge) while providing a discard outlet at the same time something that Wraith doesn't do. At the moment it seems to just be a matter of deck space. Wraith makes the most sense in the current meta and Careful Study is subjectively the weakest card in the deck. There is worth noting that having Wraith lessens your reliance of actually having to cast spells and with lots of Chalice decks running around it would makes sense to have less spells to get neutered. I can see playing out a turn 1 PImp and being set in the face of a Turn 1 Chalice on 1 assuming we were on the play whereas turn 1 Careful Study binning two dredgers may not be enough after you're locked out of playing anymore spells past turn 1.
Also we can still bring in the Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm idea here too again as running more Wraiths over Studies means we aren't using the stack giving us the ability to churn through our deck while the opponent sits idle with soft countermagic. Might be the reason I also noticed Orim running the full set of Cephalid Coliseums which again side step countermagic (still doesn't help us cast Therapy, PImp, or Faithless though xD)
All that being said cutting back on Studies will mean that a FOW on a Turn 1 PImp will actually hurt quite a lot unless your opener has additional form of discard either LED or Faithless, the weaker Cabal Therapy targeting yourself or even Breakthrough if desperate. Ultimately it is preference, but I urge players to try running both variants to see their strengths and weaknesses. Happy Dredging!
Street wraith also alows some lines that are very good vs countermagic. Not only ddd, but imagine a hand of LED, coliseum, wraith + dredger. It doesn't matter if you are on the play or on the draw, you can play the LED, which often doesn't get countered, then play coliseum and go nuts.
Somehow my turn 1 imps very rarely get countered. That might be a mistake by my opponents, but I can't complain.
Wraith also lets you keep some hands without a land, but with a LED. I think that it is very hard to compare study and wraith, because they are very different in many situations.
I think that I will try some studies over PImp in tje near future.
I also thought about cutting the ancient grudge to make room for iona or another enchantment removal. Removing artifacts hasn't been very important and I don't even bring it in for value vs stoneblade decks.
I have to agree on the point that PImp hardly fets countered. Yesterday at FNM it was an All Star that won3/4 games for me. Making me discard, attack and even use it to Therapy when it was needed. For some reason your opponent does not see it as a dangerous card but when you cast something like a Looting they go crazy and can not throw down their counter fast enough. It looks so innocent while unanswered is able to take over the game all by itself because they also don`t want to use removal on it for some reason.
Orim mate how is your verdict about Silent Gravestone? I got a couple yesterday and wanto try them out this or next week but I`m having a hard time thinking what else to cut from the board when siding them in against Delver decks.
I only board in silent gravestone vs miracles and pile to stop surgical snap surgical.
Against grixis delver I'm much more worried about getting dazed/forced and wastelanded out of the game and their surgicals are much less scary, because we actually don't need that many things to beat their board. Surgicals only get scary if they have drs to eat ichorid, too or somehow deny too much bridge value so they can surgical ichorids. I only side in firestorm for an uncounterable discard outlet that threatens to kill drs or their first creature to protect future bridges.
Silent gravestone is insane vs these control decks. It feels like it makes these matchups almost unlosable if you draw it early and have a semi-reasonable way to start dredging.
But it hasn't performed too well vs stoneblade decks, because they often don't rely on surgical+snap as much as the other control decks. I have seen more actual hate from stoneblade and gravestone does nothing vs that. Might need more testing vs stoneblade if it is worth the risk.
I see. Thanks for the reply mate. I will try them out somewhere next week.
Any idea if dredge has an active discord? That'd be pretty sweet to bounce off ideas.
PS: Also curious about what do you do when you know the opponent is boarding a single Graffdigger's Cage. Do you pack hate for it, if they don't have a way to tutor the cage, or do you just hope they'll see it too late for it to matter?
Serenity has been getting rid of Leyline of the Void for me, but grafdiggers in a delver shell usually gets me to scoop.
If it's only 1... i would say ignore it but if it bothers you that much and you have some room in the sideboard you could play Abrade.
I don't think it's worth it, tbh. If it's a 1 off and they have a lot of protection and filtering, then most likely I'm boarding in anti-hate cards and probably not seeing them often enough. Not to mention they'll probably get countered since all they have to to is protect the Cage. It sucks folding to a single card, but that's just the nature of the beast I guess.
How does everyone else deal with Cage? Do you also move on to the next game and hope to be fast enough as well?
Despite seeming like it is a rational way to deal with it, it doesn't seem reliable enough. Or am I just overthinking it?
Well if it just one you just go faster than them and kill them.
It`s simple with decks like these if they have it they have. That is just how it works with Dredge.
Not really rational, but given our main strategy is to "therapy" away their counter/hate and beat them down. It's usually effective.
Once they board in, we have heaps of ways to get rid of hate.
Serenity, Abrupt Decay, Claims etc. are all decent, although Decay does require you to run a few more lands to be semi-reliable.
Checking out some Domaria cards, and none make me think "dredge". There are some interesting casual cards tho.
FYI: Dredge made Top 8 in the Legacy event at the MKM Series this past weekend.
http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/cov...e-2018-legacy/
That is me!
Congrats on the finish! Any chance for a tournament report? I'm interested to read about your sideboard choices especially the 2 silent gravestone.
Thank you!
I'll try to write something tomorrow.
Congrats on your top 8 finish.
I`m thinking of taking out my one off Ancient Grudge to fit in some Silent Gravestones.
Did you miss the Ancient Grudge in the side?
Also did you have any problems casting your spells with the four Coliseums?
Congratulations!
What made you forego putrid imps for 4 of careful study? Do you see more merits in study instead of imps?
A little report of what I remember of sunday:
4 friends come to Rome sleeping at my house, the result is obviously too little sleep and too much pizza, which are both great things for tournaments, so I know I'm gonna do good.
I have a bye, so I sleepwalk for an hour.
In the second round I'm against Rafael Boog, a swiss guy on Canadian Threshold.
There is a big expedition from Switzerland, they all seem like good guys and they did very well in the trials on friday, and Rafael keeps up with expectations, being a good guy and a great player.
In g1 my zombies are faster than his turn 1 3/2 flyer.
I bring in my Firestorms in the place of LEDs and I'll try to kill his Insects before they kill me. Unfortunately the combination of counterspells, pressure on my life points and well played surgicals are enough to win him both g2 and g3.
1-1
In the third round I'm against Sandro Carlucci, on Elves.
The name sounds italian, but at the table I discover that he's another one from the swiss expetition.
I don't remember g1, but I guess I put him at 0 life before he did.
For g2 I will bring 4 firestorms, 1 Dread Return and Iona. I think that Firestorms and Therapies can buy me enough time to be comfortable. This will not happen, since he'll be able to Zenith an Ooze on turn 3 with a Cradle in play. I had a good start, but the Ooze manages to eat all my graveyard goodies and gain him enough life to shut down any plan of racing. He makes some mistakes by thinking that he hase to remove Firestorms from my graveyard, I don't know if he misread it or he thought that I could take them back in some way.
For g3 we have only 5 minutes, so I know I will have to be fast and since I'm on the play I take out the Firestorms and bring in the all in combo package, with the other DR and the petals. I dredge a lot of cards in my first 2 turns, but only 2 narcomoebas, 2 bridges and no ichorids. At least I'm able to thersapy him twice, so it's only a matter of time until I find Iona and start attacking, winning on the fourth extra turn.
2-1
Fourth round, I'm against Frederick Okonji, on BUG control.
He is a local guy who comes from the same hometown that I come from, we didn't know each other personally, but he's very friendly.
I don't remember exactly how g1 went, but he never counters my draw spells so I'm able to put some ichorids in play by turn 3 and therapy out an annoying jitte that he could put on a stryx. I manage to kill him through multiple stryxes.
In g2 basically the same happens, because neither of us see any sideboard cards, so my ichorids do the dirty work of sacrificing themselves in the name of cabal therapy and the zombie horde.
3-1
In the fifth round I'm against Jacopo Chianella, on Death and Taxes
As soon as he starts with Plains -> Vial I know I will win, since I have an explosive hand. He concedes on turn two, knowing the matchup very well, being a former dredge player.
In g2 I bring in 3 Wear/Tear, a DR and an Ashen Rider. He starts with land -> Mother and I think a lot before playing my turn 1. I could careful study into a double looting turn two or play a therapy on my opponent checking for rip. I decide for the latter and I'm rewarded by a RiP in his hand. He proceeds to play Stoneforge Mystic and on my second turn I'll show him that putting cards in the graveyard is more convenient, creatures come off of it, then come back, then zombies come out of nowhere, everything is disgusting.
4-1
I'm against Giulio Iannuzzi, a friend playing Elves.
I go first, starting with a looting and e starts with Nettle Sentinel. This start can lead to huge turn 2 Glimpses, so I have to Therapy him for Glimpse, finding one. He will put a huge amount of creatures and I start my dreadging hell. I make a huge mistake, thinking thast he has a fetch in hand, while he already played it, so he proceeds to reveal me the card he has, a GSZ, that he proceeds to play for 8.
Unfortunately for him I know his sideboard tech, an Elderscale Wurm that I couldn't beat without Ashen Rider. So I side in the all in combo plan with also the Rider, that I normally would keep out against Elves. He plays his Wurm on turn 3 and I reanimate Ashen Rider on the following turn.
In g3 I keep the combo plan despite being on the draw, he plays turn 1 nettle, turn 2 nothing. I think about it a bit and then I think that he must have kept a hand with Natural Orders and multiple Glimpses and he just had to draw a creature. I therapy him for Glimpse and find three of them. I will win easily against his empty hand and board.
5-1
My opponent is Juan Mi Martin Montoliu, a spanish guy on UR Delver.
He asks if we can draw, but we can't, this will basically be our win and in because the winner will be able to draw the next game.
He's on the play but he will mulligan to 5, keeping 3 lands, a Swiftspear and a Brainstorm.
My hand is insane, with triple Wraith, Breakthrough and LED.
In g2 I bring in the combo plan, because I don't know how much I can rely on Firestorms to gain me time, since he plays FoW, Daze and Flusterstorm. He has a turn 1 Swiftspear and I have another formidable hand, with looting and double LED. He will put me to 2 life in his third turn, but then I'll be able to reanimate Iona (which was the 59th card of my deck) which will keep me safe, allowing the zombies to kill him.
Yay! At the table at my side I see Urs, another Swiss guy who I was rooting for, because I met him on friday at the trial and he was playing Dredge as well and he won too.
Also other 2 guys from my local game store are 6-1, so I'm happy, the Swiss are happy, the Romans are happy, I can draw the next game.
Unfortunately Urs will finish 9th, because life sucks.
In the top8 I'm against Nicolas Crépelle, on Czech Pile.
He's on the play and I have to mulligan to 4, keeping Ichorid, Thug, Coliseum, Wraith. I scry a Careful Study to the top.
He plays shaman on turn 1, I loot and put a thug in the graveyard, he tries to eat it with Shaman and I cycle Wraith in response.
The game goes on for a long time, multiple Ichorids allow me to put 4 zombies in play, but my critical mass can only put him to two after he finds more stryxes, Leovold and a removal that kept him alive and left me with no creatures.
In g2 I bring in the Silent Gravestones and the Firestorms. I keep a risky seven, with two Gravestones but not looting effect.
I start with a gravestone, that buys me enough time to find a looting, but he will eventually deal with the second one with a FoW and the first one with a Kolaghan Command. My graveyard now contains 20 cards, but none of them are Ichorids. I will die from the beatings of a Vendillion Clique.
I never played against chalice decks, so I didn't miss the Grudge, but still with triple wear/tear I think taht I'm ok with this setting. Of course grudge would be extremely better against it, but I can't have everything.
In my list the Coliseum takes the place of a spell, so if I have a problem casting a looting with it, I would have had it even if the Coliseum wasn't there. Also, I'm playing 7 blue spells in my deck, so it has an even better role than in other lists.
Thanks!
Putrid Imp is a great card in an average hand. It makes every other card better: looting effects, Therapy, Ichorid. But it's not a card that lets you keep a hand by itself.
Careful study, like Faithless Looting, makes every hand better by itself, by allowing to draw into other looting cards, LED, lands if needed or sideboard cards.
I can't decide which choice is "better", but I prefer my list in an unknown meta, where there may be more combo decks or where I might need to loot for sideboard cards.
However mine is just a personal opinion and the awesome results of Orim, Que or Parcher, just to name a few with PImps talk for themselves.
Nice Report! I also played 2 leagues with your list today and both were a 4-1, losing to eldrazi both times. I really like it, which is not surprising, considering that our lists are very similar.
I also cut ancient grudge from my list, it just isn't very important most of the time, even against chalice decks. The biggest problem vs chalice decks are enchantments like blood moon. They will mulligan for it, so the plan is to destroy the leyline first and ancient grudge doesn't do that. The enablers in our deck also have different cmcs, so it should often be possible to start dredging even with a chalice in play. After that, we can use dread return -> ashen rider to get rid of problematic artifacts like ensnaring bridge.
I think that it was probably the right call to play careful study over PImp in that tournament, because there wasn't as much fair blue with drs as online.
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