[Primer] Dredge

[Oestrus]

That is me!

Werk!

[Pische]

Nice Report! I also played 2 leagues with your list today and both were a 4-1, losing to eldrazi both times. I really like it, which is not surprising, considering that our lists are very similar.

I also cut ancient grudge from my list, it just isn't very important most of the time, even against chalice decks. The biggest problem vs chalice decks are enchantments like blood moon. They will mulligan for it, so the plan is to destroy the leyline first and ancient grudge doesn't do that. The enablers in our deck also have different cmcs, so it should often be possible to start dredging even with a chalice in play. After that, we can use dread return -> ashen rider to get rid of problematic artifacts like ensnaring bridge.

I think that it was probably the right call to play careful study over PImp in that tournament, because there wasn't as much fair blue with drs as online.

Thank you Orim! I have to say that while a lot of good work has been done in the past by the above mentioned great players, the merit of introducing the Street Wraiths is yours and it's what gives our lists the ability to be so explosive and still run 4 functioning ichorids.

[Vissah]

Thanks for the write up and the answer to my question.

[Orim67]

Well, to be fair, it all started with this awesome report: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...gacy-Challenge
At first, I just wanted to grind to eventually build ANT, but then I realized that it is much easier to win with dredge :)

[tw0as]

After a long 4 years (maybe 5) break of MtG, im coming back playing Legacy with my good old Dredge deck. Ive been reading the 12 pages of this thread and looking for reviews, reports etc ... After all that i found myself changing my outdated 75 to this :

4 Mana Confluence
2 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Faithless Looting
2 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

2 Lotus Petal
3 Silent Gravestone
3 Firestorm
2 Wear/Tear
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ashen Rider


Credits for this 75 are going to everyone here, every imput on the deck made me think and rethink choices and numbers. I ended up with 12 + 4 mana enablers , 9 + 3 looting effects , and a solid number of black creatures to keep those ichorids out of my gy and straight in the front line. About SB i found Petals and Gravestones being MVPs on my testing: Petals gives and extra boost on speed on certain games we need, and the Gravestones protects us from 90% of the hate in current meta (at least my current meta lol)
What keeps me testing and pondering with the deck is the correct number of Studies/Breaks in the maindeck, the 4th Firestorm in the sideboard, the Contagion option and the Memory's Journey option. It's ok to ask for even more data on this thoughts ?
Thank you very much, everyone here. I hope to be putting up some winning reports here soon :)

[Smea.gol.lum]

I like your list with one exception: I wouldn't run less than 3 cards that get rid of Leyline of the Void in the sideboard. I would replace Ancient Grudge with another Wear/Tear.

I'm also trying to figure out the best maindeck composition at the moment. In my experience inconsistency has been the biggest issue of dredge. That's why I run 13 lands and 4 Thugs. As already mentioned in this thread, Breakthrough is bad in multiples so 3 seems to be the right number. I haven't played Dredge for a long time and tested Street Wraith yet, but 4 seems to be the way to go if you look at the current meta and tournament results.

So for me the questions are: 3 or 4 Cephalid Coliseum (I wouldn't ever go below 3, I think it's too good to be trimmed down to 2)?
0-4 Putrid Imps?
0-4 Careful Studies?

Here's what I will test with (looks very similar to yours):

4 Mana Confluence
2 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Faithless Looting
3 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
1 Putrid Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

2 Lotus Petal
3 Silent Gravestone
3 Firestorm
3 Serenity
2 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ashen Rider

Another question:
If you are playing against Grixis Delver and your opponent starts game 2 with turn 1 Deathrite Shaman, would you try to DDD under certain circumstances even if you don't have a Street Wraith in your hand to trick your opponent into thinking you have one?

[Que]

I like your list with one exception: I wouldn't run less than 3 cards that get rid of Leyline of the Void in the sideboard. I would replace Ancient Grudge with another Wear/Tear.

I'm also trying to figure out the best maindeck composition at the moment. In my experience inconsistency has been the biggest issue of dredge. That's why I run 13 lands and 4 Thugs. As already mentioned in this thread, Breakthrough is bad in multiples so 3 seems to be the right number. I haven't played Dredge for a long time and tested Street Wraith yet, but 4 seems to be the way to go if you look at the current meta and tournament results.

So for me the questions are: 3 or 4 Cephalid Coliseum (I wouldn't ever go below 3, I think it's too good to be trimmed down to 2)?
0-4 Putrid Imps?
0-4 Careful Studies?

Here's what I will test with (looks very similar to yours):

4 Mana Confluence
2 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Faithless Looting
3 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
1 Putrid Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

2 Lotus Petal
3 Silent Gravestone
3 Firestorm
3 Serenity
2 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ashen Rider

Another question:
If you are playing against Grixis Delver and your opponent starts game 2 with turn 1 Deathrite Shaman, would you try to DDD under certain circumstances even if you don't have a Street Wraith in your hand to trick your opponent into thinking you have one?

I'm still apprehensive about cutting down on careful study in general, but given the current meta that just seems probably right. I would want at least a couple of PImps to help play around cards like Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm and to a lesser extent Pyroblast/REB which normally eat up your Careful Study and Breakthrough.

Cephalid Coliseum is awesome as it helps you play around counter magic, but makes it difficult to cast some of your crucial spells i.e. Faithless Looting, Cabal Therapy, PImp, and some side board cards so normally 3 is ideal favoring more gold lands. However, if the current trend is to cut down to 0-1 Careful Study I would rather run 4 to give you additional gas.

[planeswalkerzen]

Hey guys!

I am looking to pick the deck up, and had some questions that it would be good to get people's thoughts on!

-It seems like the maindeck is all but agreed on, except the Putrid Imp vs Careful Study discussion. What do people think about just cutting Breakthrough instead, and playing four each of Imp and Careful Study? While I do understand that Breakthrough leads to more explosive draws, having 12 discard outlets makes the deck more consistent and able to fight through counterspells (even if first gets countered, you can follow up with another). It seems like Breakthrough is one of the first cards to be cut in post board games anyway, and it feels like having 12 one mana discard outlets will help you be more consistent in pre-board games - which matters a lot.

-In the sideboard, what are people's thoughts on Serenity vs Wear//Tear? I feel like Serenity is better, especially against Red Prison where they have Leyline of the Void and lots of artifacts. In what situations is Wear//Tear better?

-When do you bring in Lotus Petal?

-And finally, what are generally the cards that can be sideboarded out?

Thanks!

[notkevin]

Hey guys!

I am looking to pick the deck up, and had some questions that it would be good to get people's thoughts on!

Welcome to the club :) Hope you have a blast dredging them out! I'll try to answer your questions from my pov; hopefully others can offer their perspectives as well :)

-It seems like the maindeck is all but agreed on, except the Putrid Imp vs Careful Study discussion. What do people think about just cutting Breakthrough instead, and playing four each of Imp and Careful Study? While I do understand that Breakthrough leads to more explosive draws, having 12 discard outlets makes the deck more consistent and able to fight through counterspells (even if first gets countered, you can follow up with another). It seems like Breakthrough is one of the first cards to be cut in post board games anyway, and it feels like having 12 one mana discard outlets will help you be more consistent in pre-board games - which matters a lot.

The biggest thing about BT for me is that in some matchups you really need that explosivity; same thing goes with LED - that is, you can eschew these powerhouses for consistency, but it means that the deck has a cap to its power. Against some decks, we absolutely need that power to reliably win (decks that come to mind include storm, reanimator, elves [tho not as much]). It also (along with LED and Pimp) allows us to discard our whole hand, which can be really helpful if we end up drawing Ichorids/Bridges/Dread Returns/Ichorid fuel. But cutting down on Breakthrough is certainly a viable approach :)

-In the sideboard, what are people's thoughts on Serenity vs Wear//Tear? I feel like Serenity is better, especially against Red Prison where they have Leyline of the Void and lots of artifacts. In what situations is Wear//Tear better?

I've also been feeling like Serenity is generally better - I actually just picked up a couple more so I can try out how it feels :P It's particularly strong against multiple leyline openers out of those decks, which I've been wanting. It's much slower, though (without petals, it comes down t2, and only kills your problems t3; they have a chance to blow it up before it gets back to you, or put you in a huge hole by then), and it's been nice to open with t1 tear their leyline (I've done that about 5 times in the past few weeks, and I think I won 3 of those games :P).

-When do you bring in Lotus Petal?

The obvious answer is when you want to race, but something that I'm only starting to better appreciate is also balancing speed with consistency; against some decks on the play, I've considered leaving them out because I don't need the "speed boost" so to speak, and I'd rather just make sure my engine's going in time. They're also not bad as really bad gemstone mines (eg, against wasteland decks), but I think most wasteland decks don't really tempo you out, so I don't think I'd bring any in.

-And finally, what are generally the cards that can be sideboarded out?

Thanks!

The most common cards I take out are 1 thug (almost always, unless I'm really trying to ensure t1 dredge consistency - I run 12 dredgers main), 1 Ichorid (against faster decks), 1 Dread Return in the main (against decks where DR is bad, like control), and some number of PImp/Careful/Wraith; Breakthrough and/or LED (in some number) comes out against grindier countermagic as well.

Hope this helps :)

[planeswalkerzen]

Welcome to the club :) Hope you have a blast dredging them out! I'll try to answer your questions from my pov; hopefully others can offer their perspectives as well :)


The biggest thing about BT for me is that in some matchups you really need that explosivity; same thing goes with LED - that is, you can eschew these powerhouses for consistency, but it means that the deck has a cap to its power. Against some decks, we absolutely need that power to reliably win (decks that come to mind include storm, reanimator, elves [tho not as much]). It also (along with LED and Pimp) allows us to discard our whole hand, which can be really helpful if we end up drawing Ichorids/Bridges/Dread Returns/Ichorid fuel. But cutting down on Breakthrough is certainly a viable approach :)


I've also been feeling like Serenity is generally better - I actually just picked up a couple more so I can try out how it feels :P It's particularly strong against multiple leyline openers out of those decks, which I've been wanting. It's much slower, though (without petals, it comes down t2, and only kills your problems t3; they have a chance to blow it up before it gets back to you, or put you in a huge hole by then), and it's been nice to open with t1 tear their leyline (I've done that about 5 times in the past few weeks, and I think I won 3 of those games :P).


The obvious answer is when you want to race, but something that I'm only starting to better appreciate is also balancing speed with consistency; against some decks on the play, I've considered leaving them out because I don't need the "speed boost" so to speak, and I'd rather just make sure my engine's going in time. They're also not bad as really bad gemstone mines (eg, against wasteland decks), but I think most wasteland decks don't really tempo you out, so I don't think I'd bring any in.


The most common cards I take out are 1 thug (almost always, unless I'm really trying to ensure t1 dredge consistency - I run 12 dredgers main), 1 Ichorid (against faster decks), 1 Dread Return in the main (against decks where DR is bad, like control), and some number of PImp/Careful/Wraith; Breakthrough and/or LED (in some number) comes out against grindier countermagic as well.

Hope this helps :)

Thanks for answering the questions!

One other major question I have is - what is the Dread Return package for? It feels like it takes a lot of SB slots but also cards to cut for it, and I'm not sure when I ever really want it.

Also, do you generally bring in the Lotus Petals when you bring in colored spells?

[slave]

One other major question I have is - what is the Dread Return package for? It feels like it takes a lot of SB slots but also cards to cut for it, and I'm not sure when I ever really want it.

Whether DR works for you or not comes down to what matchups you regularly expect to face, and what hate is prevalent for you.
For example;
I always run 2xDR & 1xIona VS Elves & Burn. Locking an opponent out is nice.
Ashen Rider is useful against lock-decks to remove trouble perms, and of course Show'n'Tell > Emmy.

I generally use one DR in the main, without any specified target outside GGT, simply as DR can be an efficient way of creating brain eaters.

Also, do you generally bring in the Lotus Petals when you bring in colored spells?

For me it depends on what your side looks like, and how many lands you're running.
I generally bring in LP when I'm racing, or running into heavy LD & Taxing, but there may be some here who bring it in when using Abrupt Decay.

[notkevin]

Whether DR works for you or not comes down to what matchups you regularly expect to face, and what hate is prevalent for you.
For example;
I always run 2xDR & 1xIona VS Elves & Burn. Locking an opponent out is nice.
Ashen Rider is useful against lock-decks to remove trouble perms, and of course Show'n'Tell > Emmy.

I generally use one DR in the main, without any specified target outside GGT, simply as DR can be an efficient way of creating brain eaters.

For me it depends on what your side looks like, and how many lands you're running.
I generally bring in LP when I'm racing, or running into heavy LD & Taxing, but there may be some here who bring it in when using Abrupt Decay.

Exact same thoughts for me, as well :) 1 DR main with no targets, 1 more DR + Iona and Rider in the sideboard for other decks, and only siding in LP for racing and very heavy resource denial, but not running Decay.

As a tangent, I was trying to figure out how to best maximize wins against Reanimator (specifically BR, but UB is perhaps also worth thinking about). I feel like I'm overboarding by siding in Petals, Gravestones, and a DR package (especially because DR and Gravestone are a nonbo), but it feels like just doing one half is "too slow" against them. I'm also trying to figure out what to side out - if Gravestone is out, we have to win through Ichorid + Narco + zombie beats, but I trim on Ichorids since it's a fast matchup normally. I tried something like this; what do people think? (I'm running a list very similar to Orim67's in the last Legacy Challenge, but -1 Coliseum -1 Careful for +1 DR +1 Breakthrough to go faster against other combo decks in the local meta)
+2 Petal, +3 Gravestone, +DR, +Iona, +Rider
-3 PImp, -2 Ichorid, -1 Thug, -2 Wraith

Maybe I should do -1 Ichorid -3 Wraith instead?

[Orim67]

I didn't build my list to beat B/R Reaninator. I don't think that it is worth it to dedicate slots vs them. If you really want to beat them, you can consider cutting gravestones for faerie macabre or leylines. You already changed your deck to be faster vs combo, so I guess that you don't have too many snapcasters in your meta. Gravestone is very medium vs reanimator, they have exhume, chancellor trigger and discard to stop it.
Anyways, this is what I tried when I played vs B/R:
I board in dread return on the play and gravestones on the draw. I cut 1 thug, 2 PImps, 1 Ichorid, 1 land. 3 PImps on the play. Petals also come in, of course.

[Ronald Deuce]

One other major question I have is - what is the Dread Return package for? It feels like it takes a lot of SB slots but also cards to cut for it, and I'm not sure when I ever really want it.

I'm gonna be bold and say that Dredge is one of those decks that really doesn't need all 15 sideboard slots. We can't ever afford to bring in more than a few cards if we expect to keep firing, and there aren't perfect answers to the hate that will just end us if it shows its face. If there were a single existential threat we needed to restructure our deck to fight (and no other threats that required different answers), I wouldn't think this way, but there isn't.

The Dread Return package does three things:

—It gives us autowins in a number of matchups. A lot of decks can't beat a Griselbrand, Iona, Archon, Elesh Norn, or a big guy with an ETB (probably Ashen Rider).
—We need a speed boost against other combo decks. We'll never be as consistent as some of the format's real dark horses (like Storm), but we can up our speed significantly with a couple of Dread Returns and a Zealot.
—It's pretty much uncounterable Maximum Overdrive for zombie production.

[notkevin]

I didn't build my list to beat B/R Reaninator. I don't think that it is worth it to dedicate slots vs them. If you really want to beat them, you can consider cutting gravestones for faerie macabre or leylines. You already changed your deck to be faster vs combo, so I guess that you don't have too many snapcasters in your meta. Gravestone is very medium vs reanimator, they have exhume, chancellor trigger and discard to stop it.
Anyways, this is what I tried when I played vs B/R:
I board in dread return on the play and gravestones on the draw. I cut 1 thug, 2 PImps, 1 Ichorid, 1 land. 3 PImps on the play. Petals also come in, of course.

Thanks for the insight, and answering the real question hidden in my poorly-phrased one :) Trying to get some last-minute prep for the GP (I'll probably shift even closer to your list - probably trim the Careful for the Dread Return and put Iona in the board), and want to solidify a plan against some matchups.

Speaking of which, anyone else going to Seattle? Que and I'll be there :)

[jimytuning]

Pische, with your list as sideboard against the main pairings (5color, jund, d&t, s&t, grixis....??

[Pische]

Pische, with your list as sideboard against the main pairings (5color, jund, d&t, s&t, grixis....??

Against DRS decks I board in 4 Firestorm, taking out the Breakthroughs and a Street Wraith (or a LED if they didn't see the Wraith in g1).
Against 4c I also put in the Silent Gravestones, taking out some more LEDs or Wraiths.
Against d&t I bring in petals, dread returns and ashen rider. Sometimes I think about switching to Wear / Tears when on the draw, but I had worse results with that settings, since a good fair start by them can beat a slow hand that we keep with anti hate.
Against the combos I bring in the whole combo package, with petals, DRs and Iona (also Ashen against all the combos but storm), taking out 2 Ichorids, a land a Wraith and one or two thugs.

[Cyrus]

Hey, I saw some comments here mentioning that some of our Dredge bois were attending GP Seattle, how did y'all do?

[Que]

Hey, I saw some comments here mentioning that some of our Dredge bois were attending GP Seattle, how did y'all do?

Hi All, got back yesterday. Was just relaxin. I'll have another post with highlights or notes I thought were interesting in my matchups. I ended 10-5 good for 1 pro point; 140th overall. Wish my results could have been better, but I'm glad I was able to power through to day two without any byes and come out with a winning record at the end of it. It was a great experience and I had a great trip overall getting to see Seattle with my good friends. Here were my matchups:

Round 1: Gerard Ahquin on Sneak & Show, W 2-1
1-0
Round 2: William Thomas on Czech Pile, W 2-1
2-0
Round 3: Benjamin Brueseke on Grixis Delver, W 2-0
3-0
Round 4: Ryder Nishioka on Mono Red Prison, L 0-2
3-1
Round 5: James Miller on Death and Taxes, W 2-0
4-1
Round 6: Lu Chao on Noble Bant Blade, W 2-0
5-1
Round 7: Tyler Mollenkopf on Elves, L 1-2
5-2
Round 8: Matthew Mercier on Elves, W 2-1
6-2
Round 9: Brenden Hickey on Sneak & Show, W 2-1
7-2
Round 10: Zan Zyed on Grixis Delver/Bomat, L 0-2
7-3
Round 11: Cody Nicely on Grixis Delver, L 0-2
7-4
Round 12: Isaiah Manalo on Tin Fins, W 2-1
8-4
Round 13: Ty Sloo on Lands, W 2-1
9-4
Round 14: Daniel Wong on Sneak & Show, W 2-0
10-4
Round 15: Robert Shilander on Omniscience, L 1-2
10-5

[Vissah]

Hi All, got back yesterday. Was just relaxin. I'll have another post with highlights or notes I thought were interesting in my matchups. I ended 10-5 good for 1 pro point; 140th overall. Wish my results could have been better, but I'm glad I was able to power through to day two without any byes and come out with a winning record at the end of it. It was a great experience and I had a great trip overall getting to see Seattle with my good friends. Here were my matchups:

Round 1: Gerard Ahquin on Sneak & Show, W 2-1
1-0
Round 2: William Thomas on Czech Pile, W 2-1
2-0
Round 3: Benjamin Brueseke on Grixis Delver, W 2-0
3-0
Round 4: Ryder Nishioka on Mono Red Prison, L 0-2
3-1
Round 5: James Miller on Death and Taxes, W 2-0
4-1
Round 6: Lu Chao on Noble Bant Blade, W 2-0
5-1
Round 7: Tyler Mollenkopf on Elves, L 1-2
5-2
Round 8: Matthew Mercier on Elves, W 2-1
6-2
Round 9: Brenden Hickey on Sneak & Show, W 2-1
7-2
Round 10: Zan Zyed on Grixis Delver/Bomat, L 0-2
7-3
Round 11: Cody Nicely on Grixis Delver, L 0-2
7-4
Round 12: Isaiah Manalo on Tin Fins, W 2-1
8-4
Round 13: Ty Sloo on Lands, W 2-1
9-4
Round 14: Daniel Wong on Sneak & Show, W 2-0
10-4
Round 15: Robert Shilander on Omniscience, L 1-2
10-5

Nice one! Congrats on getting a pro point.
Would love to read more and of course a decklist would be very nice 😃