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Thread: [Primer] Dredge

  1. #321

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by Drujeful View Post
    How did you feel about the combo kill in the main? Do you think it's correct to drop Street Wraith for that in the new meta?
    Not OP but,

    In my personal experience, I didn't have wonderful results with street wraith even before the ban. Many times I think it would have been better to just have another draw spell; I often found it difficult to get dredgers in my yard after a force of will on my only draw spell or putrid imp. The only real times I felt Street Wraith being worth the slots was cycling in response to surgical, which usually happens post-board anyway.

    After the ban, I feel that -4 street wraith, +1 DR +1 DR Target, +2 careful study is more efficient setup. I rarely run out of food for Ichorid, and I have many more keepable hands with the extra draw spells.

    What are your thoughts?

  2. #322

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by ryanburninator View Post
    I didn't have wonderful results with street wraith even before the ban....
    Street Wraith was all about DRS being so bloody prevalent in the meta for me. Now DRS is gone, I don't think we need the extra food for Icky. Wraith is gone for me.

    I assume now that DRS is gone, that our game1 win% will increase, but I also expect gravehate to change little. I expect Surg to be prevalent as ever, maybe some more people running LotV but no much more than that. Wait and see....

  3. #323

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by Drujeful View Post
    How did you feel about the combo kill in the main?
    Of the 7 matches I played in Worcester, I had at least one game that I can remember (against turbo depths) where Dragonlord Kolaghan won me the game when the opponent had lethal on board. I lost the match, of course, but that was good proof for me. I've reanimated her fairly infrequently, but she does serve the dual role of another creature for Ichorid and a win-the-game button.

    In my personal experience, I didn't have wonderful results with street wraith even before the ban.
    I want to echo this. I respect the inclusion of street wraith, but I never had good results with it, and I definitely think it is much better against DRS, which is game 1 and repeatable, than surgical. Against surgical I just tend to try to expose the least powerful dredgers first (which had decent success last weekend). I think surgical on the dredgers isn't even the best target (obviously 2x surgical on both Ichorid and Narcomoeba is just lights out), so I just let my opponents spend the card.

    I expect Surg to be prevalent as ever, maybe some more people running LotV but no much more than that. Wait and see....
    I had trouble with sideboarding decisions because of this. There were several instances where I thought LotV or RiP were better sideboard cards for my opponent's deck, so I brought in wear//tear only for my opponent to tell me after the match that they didn't bring in artifacts or enchantments, or at least had more cards of the surgical/containment priest variety. I guess when the metagame settles down we will be able to see what the preferred method of attack is and can adjust the sideboard options.

  4. #324
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    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Hi, I've spent entire yesterday terrorizing people with Dredge at the MKM Series Prague Legacy main event with 226 players
    (for non-europe players: MKM Series is probably the largest and highest quality legacy/modern series,
    something like SCG) achieving score of 7 wins, 1 draw, 1 loss which netted me 10th place - but I had the same amount of points
    as players on positions 5 - 10 but I was very unlucky with my OMW (having no byes probably played some role) and I've prepared
    a short recap to bring some optimistic energy and mood for my fellow dredge players.

    My list:
    Last time I've played dredge the standard was DR + FKZ combo kill so I've been a bit reluctant to accept the idea of beatdown
    + discard, but I've submitted to the wisdom dredge folks accumulated over the years. My only change is -2 Street Wraith for
    +2 Careful Study, Street Wraith seems like the weakest cards after ban. I've considered cutting all 4 of them but then I would have to
    cut 1 Ichorid etc. and I had no time to test that + no experience. With the hindsight I am happy for this split, they performed really well.
    The lands are not some secret tech, Mana Confluence is obviously superior to City of Brass (and it was relevant in a
    game vs. D&T because of Rishadan Ports), I've just opted to save some money to but Firestorms instead of them. The Undiscovered Paradise
    is probably wrong, but my teammate (oldschoold dredger) forced me to play it for the spice and it was actually quite cool - good against
    Rishadan Ports, painless, allowing for some niche plays like discarding it for threshold or more Firestorm damage.


    4 Lion's Eye Diamond

    3 Breakthrough
    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Careful Study
    4 Faithless Looting

    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Ichorid
    4 Narcomoeba
    3 Putrid Imp
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    2 Street Wraith

    4 Bridge from Below

    4 Cephalid Coliseum
    4 City of Brass
    4 Gemstone Mine
    1 Undiscovered Paradise

    // SB
    2 Lotus Petal
    1 Silent Gravestone
    1 Ashen Rider
    2 Faerie Macabre
    2 Serenity
    3 Firestorm
    2 Wear // Tear
    2 Dread Return



    Metagame:


    Luck and mistakes:
    The one draw with Grixis Control was absolutely horrible mistake, I've insisted on playing G2 for ~30 minutes after my opponent
    stopped me with Thoughtseize, Flusterstorm, FOW and 2x Surgical. I should have realize that this is a very favorable matchup
    and concede to have enough time for G3. Being on the play is super relevant and in G3 I was in a winning position, all I needed was 5 minutes
    to lead my zombies to victory which would his secure me top8. I've made one smaller mistake vs. Elves which could give me about 25% chance to win G1.

    My luck was above average in this tournament - I've seen 3 of my opponents playing and knew what I play against, the lady luck favoured the brave and
    nearly all my mulligans to 4 and 3 cards were rewarded by the Land, Faithless Looting, Lions Eye Diamond, Stinkweed Imp hands and notably I've won
    against OmniTell after he countered my business spells and played Graffdigger's Cage by hardcasting 2 Thugs and 1 Narcomoeba while my opponent drew
    more counterspells, lands and his Ponders fizzled. After game he confessed that he sideboarded out Show and Tell because of my Angel of Despair so maybe
    I was not so lucky - he simply made his combo much less consistent. I was also very accurate with Cabal Therapies - hitting Stoneforge Mystics
    and Swords to Plowshares very often while only one of my opponent topdecked Rest in Piece right after I double discarded him.

    Matches:
    • 2-0 Deadguy Ale
    • 2-0 U/R Prowess
    • 2-1 OmniTell with Sneak Attack
    • 2-0 Sultai midrange/control
    • 1-1 Grixis midrange/control
    • 0-2 Elves
    • 2-0 Death & Taxes
    • 2-1 BR Reanimator
    • 2-1 Death & Taxes


    The day before the tournament during the trials I've seen mostly Delvers, D&T, Stoneblades and various midrange decks with
    blue so I've been trying to keep hands with lands and multiple business spells without focusing on speed - anything that can
    give me solid chance to get a t2 Cabal Therapy for Batterskull was good enough. I simply wanted to minimize the chance of
    defeating myself in first game knowing that Ichorid + Zombie beatdown can beat 2/3 of field even with very mediocre hand
    and it just worked - the midrange decks could not deal with Ichorid, my hands against D&T were fast enough to race possible
    Batterskull. I've lost only 2 first rounds against Elves (I was on draw and had and opted to keep a 5 cards that were rather slow)
    and against BR Reanimator with nut draw (Chancellor of the Annex with Unmask and T2 combo). To sum it up I would say that
    it is quite an arcane art to read the metagame properly + critically think about your mulligans in order to keep optimal hands in
    first game. My hedge to prefer consistent t2-t3 hands over explosive t1/t2 hands payed off, but I can see that being a mistake
    in a different metagame.

    The hate was present but quite manageable - most people had 2-3 Surgical Extractions, to my surprise even both D&T decks,
    some Containment Priests, RiPs from Deadguy Ale and D&T, some Graffdigger's Cage - notably OmniTell had 4 and some blue
    decks played a few. BR Reanimator had nothing, U/R Prowess only Surgical and Sultai/Grixis also only Surgical I believe. Other
    then that they sided in some discard and counterspells. Elves player was scared of graveyard decks and had an extensive SB of
    Bojuka Bogs and Scavenging Oozes and Surgicals.

    My sideboarding was... messy, in the first rounds I've tried to proactively side in Wear/Tear and combo, but in the entire tournament
    I have not used a single artifact/enchantment removal + the combo was quite underwhelming, all my g2-g3 wins were due to
    very aggressive mulligan for fast hand, racing their hate. I've used the tactique I've seen somwhere to sideboard Lotus Petal against
    D&T, essentially exploding before they have a chance to play their 2-mana hate and I've won my both games agaisnt D&T in this way -
    they cannot fight it unless they have both Faerie Macabre/Surgical + T2 hate. I cannot comment on Firestorm, I've sideboarded it in
    blue midrange matchups, Deadguy Ale, U/R Prowess and Elves but I've not seen a single one. It was my only out vs. Scavening Ooze btw.
    I've lost a g2 vs. OmniTell and Grixis when they kept a hand of counterspells and discard without hate - I am not sure what is the optimal
    strategy for this, maybe sideboarding Firestorm? I don't think so, I would probably keep a good aggressive hand again, forcing them to
    have all the answers.

    Serenity was underwhelming, I haven't seen any situation where I would like them. Faerie Macabre is nuts with so many B/R Reanimators
    and Surgicals, but I am not sure about Gravestones, I think I would rather keep my deck consistent and force my opponent to have both
    Surgical and fast clock/snapcaster. Also many players used their Surgicals suboptimaly, for example on Faithless Lootings.

    I am still somehow unsure about DR + Ashen Rider. They are very nice vs. Surgical Extraction to diversify your threats, but I've always spent
    5+ minutes pondering about cards to take out for them and there was only one game where reanimating Ashen Rider was relevant and good.
    I will consider either adding DR targets or taking DR out of SB. I could use that space for an extra Breakthrough or Lotus Petal.

    Taking cards out of deck for sideboard is super painful and I still don't have any idea whether I've done it correctly. Usually some combination of
    1 Putrid Imp, 1 Golgari Thug, 0-2 Street Wraith, 1-2 Careful Study and 0-2 Breakthrough. I would really love to see a long and comprehensive
    sideboard guide - not a fixed set of rules how to sideboard against which matchup but what sideboarding out certain key cards means for the
    mulligans and consistency etc.

    Observations:
    • Its hard to lose G1 vs. non-combo deck without mulliganing yourself to oblivion. Mulliganing conservatively in G1 might be the correct plan.
    • 4 Ichorids were super nice - you can keep good hands with multiple Narcomoebas G1, having all your Narcomoebas in last 20 cards is still winnable etc.
    • Less then 4 Thugs must be wrong, failing to chain dredgers when you explode and having less hands with dredgers is really bad.
    • Never give up against combo, you can beat T1 Chancelor/Grisselbrand, you can kill OmniTell with army of 1/1s, but keep an eye on the clock vs. midrange/control,
      especially in favourable matchup being stubborn can cost you 2 points.
    • Dredge is all about the balls, I've mulliganed to 4 cards at least in 1/3 games, probably more, and won most of these games and there is a certain
      mindset of "just having shitload of fun" really helped me with those decisions - transforming the unpleasant experience of mulliganing into an exciting
      event of exchanging 4 bad cards into 3 cards with 20+ outs that are still winning.
    • Losing to G2 Graffdigger's Cage feels bad, but sideboarding Wear/Tear and crippling your consistency feels even worse. I think that sideboarding
      2x artifact hate blindly is probably bad, but not being drawing dead is a strong temptation. I would like to hear some opinions about this issue.
    • Surprisingly many players keep 7 or 6 without any hate in G2/3, just as if they played against fair deck. I ascribe this tendency towards the non-combo kill that
      gives them the feeling that they can somehow beat it without the hate. For this reason it might be worth to play G1 tightly if you are sure that they cannot come back
      and just kill them over few turns with some zombies and Ichorids, instead of dredging 55 cards and creating 20 zombie tokens. Maybe its nonsense, not sure.

  5. #325

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by ryanburninator View Post
    What are your thoughts?
    I absolutely loved the combo kill. I switched between Dragonlord Kolaghan and Flame-Kin Zealot depending on how I felt. It was so much fun being able to just explode. I was sad when the deck switched away from that so now I'm really excited that we could potentially go back to it. Unfortunately, due to school I don't have a ton of time to play so I'm out of practice. Hopefully I can catch a break here soon.

  6. #326

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Here's my latest list that I hope to get some miles under.

    Creature (25)
    1x Flame-Kin Zealot
    4x Golgari Grave-Troll
    4x Golgari Thug
    4x Ichorid
    4x Narcomoeba
    2x Putrid Imp
    4x Stinkweed Imp
    2x Street Wraith

    Enchantment (4)
    4x Bridge from Below

    Sorcery (14)
    3x Breakthrough
    4x Cabal Therapy
    2x Careful Study
    1x Dread Return
    4x Faithless Looting

    Land (13)
    4x Cephalid Coliseum
    2x City of Brass
    3x Gemstone Mine
    4x Mana Confluence

    Artifact (4)
    4x Lion's Eye Diamond

    Sideboard (15)
    1x Ashen Rider
    1x Dread Return
    3x Firestorm
    1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
    2x Lotus Petal
    2x Serenity
    2x Silent Gravestone
    3x Wear

    I'm wondering if going to 3 Putrid Imp is going too low. Are there enough discard spells otherwise in Faithless Looting and Careful Study? Is Street Wraith even necessary at this point? I have two just in case they show up against Surgical Extraction. Regarding the sideboard, how is Silent Gravestone now? It still helps against reanimator as long as they don't use Exhume which is nice. But is it not doing as much now compared to pre-ban? What does everyone think?

  7. #327

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by fm4d View Post
    achieving score of 7 wins, 1 draw, 1 loss which netted me 10th place - but I had the same amount of points
    as players on positions 5 - 10
    Rough that breakers didn't break the right way for you, but congrats on placing so high in the event!

    Quote Originally Posted by fm4d View Post
    ...but in the entire tournament
    I have not used a single artifact/enchantment removal + the combo was quite underwhelming, all my g2-g3 wins were due to
    very aggressive mulligan for fast hand, racing their hate.
    ...
    Serenity was underwhelming, I haven't seen any situation where I would like them. Faerie Macabre is nuts with so many B/R Reanimators
    and Surgicals, but I am not sure about Gravestones, I think I would rather keep my deck consistent and force my opponent to have both
    Surgical and fast clock/snapcaster. Also many players used their Surgicals suboptimaly, for example on Faithless Lootings.

    I am still somehow unsure about DR + Ashen Rider. They are very nice vs. Surgical Extraction to diversify your threats, but I've always spent
    5+ minutes pondering about cards to take out for them and there was only one game where reanimating Ashen Rider was relevant and good.
    I will consider either adding DR targets or taking DR out of SB. I could use that space for an extra Breakthrough or Lotus Petal.

    Taking cards out of deck for sideboard is super painful and I still don't have any idea whether I've done it correctly. Usually some combination of
    1 Putrid Imp, 1 Golgari Thug, 0-2 Street Wraith, 1-2 Careful Study and 0-2 Breakthrough. I would really love to see a long and comprehensive
    sideboard guide - not a fixed set of rules how to sideboard against which matchup but what sideboarding out certain key cards means for the
    mulligans and consistency etc.
    I found that 2 wear//tear have not made my draws much less explosive, but they definitely are not a fun card to flip over to a dredge. I've tried following advice I've seen in this thread about not siding out more than 5 cards, and it has done wonders for me.
    I've only brought in Serenity twice recently, both times against Eldrazi post (I think it is generally there for the chalice + trinisphere decks), and it seemed great when I cast it, but I definitely don't think it is for matchups without chalice.
    Personally, I bring in the ashen rider against show and tell, reanimator (especially if they have blue for show and tell) and dark depths. I'm not sure about that last one, but it seems correct as a way to interrupt their combo since they can be a bit faster and we cannot block Marit Lage. I've considered it for decks that bring in ensnaring bridge as an out if you've already got the engines running by the time it comes down, but that seems pretty corner case. I don't like it as a threat diversification method, since you need so much else to go right for that to matter, and if you've got 3 creatures in play + dread return/rider in your yard you've probably also got an apocalypse of zombies in play.

    I won't say my sideboarding method is perfectly tuned, but I tend to bring out a combination of discard outlets, since that is what we are heaviest on. You mention that less than 4 thugs must be wrong, and I wholeheartedly agree, I've never sideboarded out a dredger and am happier for it. Putrid imp is the best initiator against spell pierce specifically, and it is a key to the ichorid engine, and LED when played correctly cannot be daze'd, so I tend to tune my sideboarding based on which of the discard outlets seem the most/least powerful in that matchup. Breakthrough is the only draw spell that doesn't draw you into anti-hate, so that tends to be the first one out in most matchups for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drujeful View Post
    Here's my latest list that I hope to get some miles under.
    I'm wondering if going to 3 Putrid Imp is going too low. Are there enough discard spells otherwise in Faithless Looting and Careful Study? Is Street Wraith even necessary at this point? I have two just in case they show up against Surgical Extraction. Regarding the sideboard, how is Silent Gravestone now? It still helps against reanimator as long as they don't use Exhume which is nice. But is it not doing as much now compared to pre-ban? What does everyone think?
    I'm on 2 imp and I think it is fine. Remember that LED and Cabal Therapy can be discard spells when you need them to be, so the discard outlet count is still pretty high. I recently played at the Philadelphia legacy classic, and gravestone was still great for me in that meta. I won a match against Maverick by slamming gravestone the turn after he cast GSZ for scavenging ooze. As the most prominent/general hate from my experience and from what fm4d says above is Surgical, gravestone seems like it should still be great.

    My current experiment with the deck is exploring 3 Ichorid + 2 Nether Shadow instead of 3 Ichorid + 2 Prized Amalgam. I found that amalgam would get stranded a lot in the graveyard when one of my two self-reanimating creatures got surgical'd (or if I dredged poorly). The reduced size is a downside, but usually you are just cashing those creatures in for zombies anyway. If anyone has recent experience with that set up, please share your impression. Otherwise I'll post my impressions once I've tried it out for a while.

  8. #328

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Just found an list on MTGO which placed 27th of 100 with following card:

    - Stitcher's Supplier ({B} , 1/1 )

    Rules Text
    When Stitcher's Supplier enters the battlefield or dies, put the top three cards of your library into your graveyard.

    What are your thoughts on this guy?

  9. #329
    Stomping blue decks with "dead" decks, as usual.
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    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by InTherapy View Post
    Just found an list on MTGO which placed 27th of 100 with following card:

    - Stitcher's Supplier ({B} , 1/1 )

    Rules Text
    When Stitcher's Supplier enters the battlefield or dies, put the top three cards of your library into your graveyard.

    What are your thoughts on this guy?
    This card is crazy good in Dredge. Ichorid fodder, becomes Golgari Grave-Troll with Therapy. I think that's enough to test it.

    My post-ban list would look like this:

    4 Gemstone Mine
    3 Cephalid Coliseum
    4 Mana Confluence
    2 City of Brass

    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    3 Golgari Thug
    3 Stitcher's Supplier

    4 Narcomoeba
    3 Ichorid
    2 Prized Amalgam

    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Faithless Looting
    2 Careful Study
    2 Breakthrough

    SB: 4 Fragmentize
    SB: 2 Firestorm
    SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
    SB: 2 Ashen Rider
    SB: 2 Dread Return
    SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
    SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
    Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return

  10. #330
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    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandalize View Post
    This card is crazy good in Dredge. Ichorid fodder, becomes Golgari Grave-Troll with Therapy. I think that's enough to test it.

    My post-ban list would look like this:

    4 Gemstone Mine
    3 Cephalid Coliseum
    4 Mana Confluence
    2 City of Brass

    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    3 Golgari Thug
    3 Stitcher's Supplier

    4 Narcomoeba
    3 Ichorid
    2 Prized Amalgam

    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Faithless Looting
    2 Careful Study
    2 Breakthrough

    SB: 4 Fragmentize
    SB: 2 Firestorm
    SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
    SB: 2 Ashen Rider
    SB: 2 Dread Return
    SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
    SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
    60th cards?
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenMycon
    It's really unfortunate that even a complete imbecile can learn. I guess you truly can't drive intuition out of anything.

  11. #331
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    Re: [Primer] Dredge


  12. #332

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by FrabjousDaze View Post
    I'm on 2 imp and I think it is fine. Remember that LED and Cabal Therapy can be discard spells when you need them to be, so the discard outlet count is still pretty high. I recently played at the Philadelphia legacy classic, and gravestone was still great for me in that meta. I won a match against Maverick by slamming gravestone the turn after he cast GSZ for scavenging ooze. As the most prominent/general hate from my experience and from what fm4d says above is Surgical, gravestone seems like it should still be great.
    Great points, I think I focus too hard on trying to get the most out of LED for Faithless Looting flashback. It's still good even if it's only used for discarding. I also always forget that sometimes targeting myself with Therapy works to get multiple dredgers in the graveyard. Also good to see that Gravestone is still alright. I'm thinking I might go with that and Faerie Macabre rather than Serenity in my sideboard. Probably keep two Wear//Tear.

  13. #333
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    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Hello everybody!

    I was wondering if you guys could help me update my list.

    This is what i have atm:

    OLD

    CREATURES (26)
    1 Flame-Kin Zealot
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    3 Ichorid
    4 Narcomoeba
    2 Prized Amalgam
    2 Putrid Imp
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    2 Street Wraith
    ENCHANTMENTS (4)
    4 Bridge from Below
    SORCERIES (14)
    3 Breakthrough
    4 Cabal Therapy
    2 Careful Study
    1 Dread Return
    4 Faithless Looting
    INSTANTS (1)
    1 Tolarian Winds
    ARTIFACTS (1)
    1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
    LANDS (14)
    4 Cephalid Coliseum
    4 Gemstone Mine
    2 City of Brass
    4 Mana Confluence
    SIDEBOARD (15)
    1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
    1 Ashen Rider
    4 Nature’s Claim
    1 Darkblast
    4 Faerie Macabre
    1 Street Wraith
    2 Silent Gravestone
    1 Breakthrough

    And yes, sadly i only have one LED.

    How can i imrove it on a budget?

    Cards i've seen :
    Stitcher's Supplier
    The 6 mana haste enabler Kolaghan

    And should i drop the mainboard flamekin package ?

    EDIT: I got 2 Stitcher's Suppliers today.
    I figured i could remove :

    1 Steet Wraith
    1 Dread Return (moving this to the sideboard)
    1 Flame-kin Zealot

    added:

    2 Stitcher's Supplier
    1 Ichorid


    New:

    CREATURES (26)
    2 stitcher's supplier
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    3 Ichorid
    4 Narcomoeba
    2 Prized Amalgam
    2 Putrid Imp
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    1 Street Wraith
    ENCHANTMENTS (4)
    4 Bridge from Below
    SORCERIES (14)
    3 Breakthrough
    4 Cabal Therapy
    2 Careful Study
    4 Faithless Looting
    INSTANTS (1)
    1 Tolarian Winds
    ARTIFACTS (1)
    1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
    LANDS (14)
    4 Cephalid Coliseum
    4 Gemstone Mine
    2 City of Brass
    4 Mana Confluence
    SIDEBOARD (15)
    1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
    1 Ashen Rider
    4 Nature’s Claim
    1 Darkblast
    4 Faerie Macabre
    1 Street Wraith
    2 Silent Gravestone
    1 Breakthrough
    Last edited by Runninonwater; 08-17-2018 at 02:03 PM.

  14. #334

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by Runninonwater View Post
    I was wondering if you guys could help me update my list.
    Here are my personal opinions, I could definitely be wrong, playtesting is going to be your best guide, but here we go:

    Mainboard:
    Personally, I like 13 lands, I might consider -1 coliseum. Functionally 4x island can be rough with all the black/red spells that want to be played on turn 1.

    I can't comment on supplier since I haven't played it, but it seems pretty low impact to me, I would at least consider more putrid imps over suppliers. Similarly, without DRS, street wraith could be cuttable. (maybe -1 wraith, +1 pimp).

    Having only 1 LED is understandable, that price spike was pretty back breaking. Knowing that, I might consider more draw/discard spells. We often put LED in its own category, but in many hands its a 0 mana One With Nothing that happens to combo with coliseum and faithless looting. Maybe +1 careful study, since without LED breakthrough is less explosive. As someone who loves casting winds of change at any opportunity, tolarian winds seems great to me, but it could be study #4.

    If you want the combo finish, Kolaghan is probably better than FKZ, but you don't necessarily need it.

    Sideboard:
    You seem to have 2 DR targets and no DR in the 75. I think at least 2 DR is necessary if you are playing reanimation targets (either 1 main/1 board or both in the board). Darkblast, street wraith, and the 4th breakthrough are probably all cuttable. Iona might not be the best target in the current meta, If you own Elesh Norn that can be an option, Iona can still be strong in some matchups/local metagames though.

    I think 4x nature's claim is too many, and at least some of your disenchants should probably be wear//tear (I was very resistant to that card over claim, the first game I cast wear//tear I was convinced). A 2/2 split could be fine.

    4x macabre probably depends on how much reanimator you have seen locally. I can't say its wrong, it just could be too many. The firestorm price spike is also silly, but that card is ridiculously powerful if you can get some.

    Of course this all depends on what you have access to and what it in the metagame, but those are my thoughts.

  15. #335
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    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by FrabjousDaze View Post
    Here are my personal opinions, I could definitely be wrong, playtesting is going to be your best guide
    Hello!

    Thank you for your reply!
    This is my deck after i've done some updates:

    4 Purtrid Imp
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Ichorid
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari-Grave troll
    3 Golgari Thug
    3 Street Wraith
    2 Prized Amalgam

    4 Bridge from Below

    3 Breakthrough
    3 Careful Study (otherwise 2 here, 1 LED)
    4 Cabal Therapy

    4 Cephalid Coliseum
    2 City of Brass
    4 Gemstone Mine
    4 Mana Confluence

    Sideboard:
    1 Ashen Rider
    1 Breakthrough
    2 Dread Return
    2 Faerie Macabre
    2 Firestorm
    1 Iona, shield of Emeria
    4 Nature's Claim
    2 Silent Gravestone

    My answers:

    I didn't think 13 Lands would work well if i don't run 4 LEDS, thats why i opted for 14, and to be able to get to that third land if i really need it in a pinch i guess.
    I see what you mean, with my increase of Blackspells maybe -1 Coliseum is better. But now i've added another Careful Study.

    Yes, removed supplier for more Pimps

    Okay, will take it into consideration, some thought the card is just cute. I can also see the problem where i can't discard the dredgers i dredged haha... Anyhow.

    Im thinking that could be better with Kolaghan, but maybe i should just grind it out.

    Sideboard:

    That was a mistake because i was trying to fix the main haha, so i removed the dread return to go for the more grindier route.
    I have now added 2 of them.
    Ok, i can remove breakthrough.
    I do have 1 Elesh norn, i'll add her.

    Yes, i was thinking of getting some Wear // Tears, just gotta find some.

    Last thursday when there was legacy (i didn't participate i played EDH) there were 3 Reanimator decks, 2 Tin Fins,1 Show and Tell , 1 Lands, 2 Stoneblade decks (esper and bant i think) and 1 Grixis Delver.

    I did go down on Macabre, to 2 in the side with the split for Silent Gravestone since i've seen some people asking for Surgicals.

    I acutally managed to find a playset firestorms for 22 dollars =)

    But thank you for your answers! I'll see what i can do.
    I have a colourless suite of cards so i can alternate between dredge and like: Steelstompy, MUD Stax, MUD Stompy, Eldrazi stompy and Eldrazi Post. Can also build it redbased with Daretti and Welder etc.
    So im not "stuck" with dredge.
    But i've loved dredge since i was introduced to magic 10 years ago, first really unfair deck i've seen and faced. And now 10 years later i got a dredge deck haha.

  16. #336

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    I've been testing with Stitcher's Supplier.
    Thoughts;
    It doesn't protect our GGT in the yard like Street Wraith can, and it doesn't drop dredgers from our hand like Putrid Imp. That said, it will dump cards in the yard every single game it lands on the field, it's the first thing we want to sac for Therapy, and it's fodder for Icky.
    It's good, it's going to be a casual staple for years to come - but whether it gets slots here in legacy, I'm still on the fence.
    I reckon SS isn't a bad T1 play attached to a black creature, so I think this one has some real merit.

    I'm enjoying using the card so far.
    I'm going to test this one against some hunams next time I go out for a card night.

  17. #337

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Sphinx of Lost Truths isn't optimal IME. Altho, SoLT is unlikely to be targetted with Reanimate, unlike Griselbrand
    I tend to max out on the combo enablers (like Breakthru) and face biters (Icky) instead, and I find Dredge doesn't really need DR in the main to win game1 against most opponents. I aim to get in at least 2 Prized Amalgam to combat extraction.
    That said, YMMV and all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by slave View Post
    I've been testing with Stitcher's Supplier.
    And my first thought is pretty much where I'm still at. Anyone else given it a go? Thoughts?

    My thoughts;
    GREAT casual card, it works here pretty okay, but it's not better than what we already have to work with.
    Short story - LED & Stitcher in hand can create lines of play, but LED does that with everything else we already have.
    Putrid Imp is still in that 1-drop Black creature slot for me.

  18. #338
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    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by slave View Post
    Sphinx of Lost Truths isn't optimal IME. Altho, SoLT is unlikely to be targetted with Reanimate, unlike Griselbrand
    I tend to max out on the combo enablers (like Breakthru) and face biters (Icky) instead, and I find Dredge doesn't really need DR in the main to win game1 against most opponents. I aim to get in at least 2 Prized Amalgam to combat extraction.
    That said, YMMV and all that.


    And my first thought is pretty much where I'm still at. Anyone else given it a go? Thoughts?

    My thoughts;
    GREAT casual card, it works here pretty okay, but it's not better than what we already have to work with.
    Short story - LED & Stitcher in hand can create lines of play, but LED does that with everything else we already have.
    Putrid Imp is still in that 1-drop Black creature slot for me.
    care to share your current list with Suppliers and Amalgams?

  19. #339

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    So last week I played in a local 5 round event (went 3-2, lost last round playing for top 8, got 9th). I played a list similar to one I posted earlier, but with 2 lotus petals in the board (over ingot chewer and the 4th ichorid) and with +2 nether shadow and -2 prized amalgam. My reasoning is that even though amalgam insulates you against surgical in game 2/3, if your opponent goes after your self-reanimators with surgical, your amalgams can get stranded in the yard (happened to me a lot at an SCG classic a month or two ago). My thoughts:

    • By rule 404.3, when you dredge nether shadow, you can move it to the bottom of the dredged pile (the 4-6 cards). This almost never mattered, since most dredges were not 4 creatures or more, and most shadow triggers had >>3 creatures above it.
    • While I will often wait on discarding Ichorid in favor of a dredger/bridge/therapy, leaving it to a later looting effect or a self therapy, I found that I wanted to discard shadow earlier. This is probably not that different from the play style for prized amalgam, since it needs to see the other creature enter.
    • Amalgam usually has a one turn delay if it dies (trigger Ichorid on upkeep or dredge Narcomoeba, trigger amalgam, put it in at end of turn tapped), the exception being if you sacrifice it to Dread Return. Often if I'm aware of how the turn will go (will Ichorid die in combat, what am I sacrificing to therapy this turn), I can get shadow back in the yard with 3 creatures above it, making it a small Ichorid that doesn't tax my graveyard. I found that I was less frustrated with getting shadow back that I usually am with amalgam in grindy games. Very much felt like a hybrid between Ichorid and Narcomoeba.
    • I never played a game of anemic beats, so I never got to feel out whether being a 1/1 instead of a 3/3 mattered, nor whether the cheaper cost matters.

    My plan is to keep testing Nether Shadow. I'm not sold on it being better/worse than Amalgam, but it does definitely change how the games play out.

    Additionally, while I've been touting Dragonlord Kolaghan as better than FKZ, my round 5 game had the corner case where it was in fact much worse (of course, my op scooped to seeing the Kolaghan in the graveyard despite having an on board answer, was probably eventually dead to zombies regardless). Op had a Karakas (presumably much more popular game one with the resurgence of Reanimator and Sneak/Show), and bouncing the Kolaghan in begin combat would take the haste away from the zombie army, whereas FKZ's effect would persist through the eat-their-brains step. I think I'll keep playing Kolaghan since it is a black creature for Ichorid, but this was a strike against her.

  20. #340
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    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by FrabjousDaze View Post
    So last week I played in a local 5 round event (went 3-2, lost last round playing for top 8, got 9th). I played a list similar to one I posted earlier, but with 2 lotus petals in the board (over ingot chewer and the 4th ichorid) and with +2 nether shadow and -2 prized amalgam. My reasoning is that even though amalgam insulates you against surgical in game 2/3, if your opponent goes after your self-reanimators with surgical, your amalgams can get stranded in the yard (happened to me a lot at an SCG classic a month or two ago). My thoughts:

    • By rule 404.3, when you dredge nether shadow, you can move it to the bottom of the dredged pile (the 4-6 cards). This almost never mattered, since most dredges were not 4 creatures or more, and most shadow triggers had >>3 creatures above it.
    • While I will often wait on discarding Ichorid in favor of a dredger/bridge/therapy, leaving it to a later looting effect or a self therapy, I found that I wanted to discard shadow earlier. This is probably not that different from the play style for prized amalgam, since it needs to see the other creature enter.
    • Amalgam usually has a one turn delay if it dies (trigger Ichorid on upkeep or dredge Narcomoeba, trigger amalgam, put it in at end of turn tapped), the exception being if you sacrifice it to Dread Return. Often if I'm aware of how the turn will go (will Ichorid die in combat, what am I sacrificing to therapy this turn), I can get shadow back in the yard with 3 creatures above it, making it a small Ichorid that doesn't tax my graveyard. I found that I was less frustrated with getting shadow back that I usually am with amalgam in grindy games. Very much felt like a hybrid between Ichorid and Narcomoeba.
    • I never played a game of anemic beats, so I never got to feel out whether being a 1/1 instead of a 3/3 mattered, nor whether the cheaper cost matters.

    My plan is to keep testing Nether Shadow. I'm not sold on it being better/worse than Amalgam, but it does definitely change how the games play out.

    Additionally, while I've been touting Dragonlord Kolaghan as better than FKZ, my round 5 game had the corner case where it was in fact much worse (of course, my op scooped to seeing the Kolaghan in the graveyard despite having an on board answer, was probably eventually dead to zombies regardless). Op had a Karakas (presumably much more popular game one with the resurgence of Reanimator and Sneak/Show), and bouncing the Kolaghan in begin combat would take the haste away from the zombie army, whereas FKZ's effect would persist through the eat-their-brains step. I think I'll keep playing Kolaghan since it is a black creature for Ichorid, but this was a strike against her.
    why not Ashen Ghoul over the shadow?
    i've used it for a long time when playing quadlaser and it worked better than shadow... the only downside is the B manafor reanimating which should almost never be an issue
    just my 2cents

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