Thanks for the answer. Could you explain your reasoning though? Because it seems like it's not just you that doesn't like it at the moment. In fact, most recent lists do not include FKZ.
Currently I'm dedicating two MD slots to DR targets (Griselbrand and FKZ), which I'd really rather not. My reasoning behind this is that I feel that without this kind of a combo-y package, it's really hard to race other combo decks like TES and Depths/Depths Reanimator. Does Iona MD fix these matchups without sacrificing MD consistency?
Most of my questions are probably due to inexperience with the deck (and influenced by my local meta), but it'd be great to know how do you guys feel about these questions.
Thanks a bunch,
Gris almost always amounts to win more showboating than actually winning the game. He also typically changes a lot of the math behind card counts. Check the old thread for a lot of detail discussion and bickering over it. Suffice to say, there is a reason you don't see a lot of lists running it.
As for using combo kills to be faster, that debate is one of the oldest ones about this deck. Quad-laser vs a combo variant. If your local meta is full of fast combo decks, I believe you should have a combo kill. That stated I am also more of a combo player at heart and I always play with the combo kill unless it just needs to come out in favor of other targets.
Currently my main is 1 Flayer of the Hatebound and 1 Flame-Kin Zealot. This enables not only an instant combo kill, but in the case of Flayer it can still be used to grind out some games.
Sideboard return targets are Iona and Elesh-norn. I have played ashen rider in the past, I like the card a lot, but due to some of the local meta decks I didn't have room for it.
With all this said, I am far from the best dredge player, and my own confirmation bias may cloud my thoughts here. One of the things I enjoy about this deck is that there isn't really a "right way" or "wrong way" to build it (within reason) unless you're on manaless. Those guys are weird.
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Belcher
Delver
Dredge
When your heart won't beat, your eyes go black
There's a light in the tunnel and you can't turn back
Your friends can't save you, your family's gone
You're waiting on your judgment at the foot of the throne
Will you beg for some mercy? Will you cop some pleas?
Will you stand on your own or get down on your knees?
Will your angels release you from where demons dwell?
Will you make it into Heaven or go right back to Hell?
Only time will tell
The primer is excellent, but the lack of sample lists is unfortunate. I understand not wanting to tell people 'this is the way to play this deck', but someone new to the deck is, almost by definition, poorly placed to tell whether any given net-deck is a good place to start or not.
Any chance you could update the primer with a few solid examples? If you really don't want to do that, what about linking to a few (relatively current) examples that would be a good starting point?
Most of the deck is reasonably fixed. Minimum of 12 lands, 11 Dredge cards, 8–12 looting effects or discard outlets, and quads of LED, Narcomoeba, and Therapy.
There are a few other rules of thumb—e.g. don't run more than one Dread Return without a dedicated target; nonessential cards are usually best if they're black creatures.
I've not played Dredge nearly as long as some of the people in this thread, but what strikes me about tuning it is that you want to minimize variance to the greatest degree that you can, simply because we have no deck manipulation to go with our overwhelming "draw" power. So I err on the side of running quads, the exceptions being with Dread Return (singleton md), PAm (double md), dedicated Dread Return targets (none in the main), and "functionally identical" lands like City of Brass and Mana Confluence.
Obviously, that's not the only way to do it, but I think it's usually a safe assumption that the farther away from straight quads (and/or trips-and-quads) a list is, the more experimental (or metagame-tuned) it is. (Obviously there's a debate between whether it's better to run more Dread Return stuff or more quads, and both work fine in my experience; feels like a speed-vs-consistency debate to me.) This isn't intended to denigrate or write off people running any particular setup; it's just what I've observed.
I'd be interested to read more about sideboard options, what goes out to bring them in, and where they really shine and/or fall flat.
Speaking of sideboards, anyone still running Force of Will? I swear, I keep coming about an inch away from cutting it, then it totally takes over a match.
I tend to agree with Griz - unnecessary to win. But if you resolve him, you win right there after you therapy their hand to dust. That's debateable of course.
My DR targets of choice are usually 2x Iona from the side these days. Iona is a house against so many decks if you can resolve it, I wanted two of them to up my chances of seeing it in the grave against elves, D&T, burn etc.
Your point about manaless made me chuckle. I personally think Manaless is a more robust deck than LED-dredge. Go ahead and judge me!
I think you can be more flexible with manaless decklists than you can with LED-dredge. I've played green, blue, Spy & fearless lists.
Manaless is hard to interact with, doesn't need to resolve a single spell to win (yes I've done it through counter-top), it doesn't depend on mana or keeping cards in hand beyond turn2 either, so many maindeck strategies aren't effective at stopping it. But it IS at least a turn slower than LED-dredge, and it's not as explosive, so there's that.
P.S. I'm not that weird.... I still find LED-dredge more fun to play.
Driven // Despair
Seems win-more to me.
Yeah I feel pretty much the same way.
I stopped running targets (besides GGT) for my single maindeck DR ages ago and haven't looked back. DR in the main is a nice way to land extra zombats. I've found over the years playing against taxing, wasteland etc. that having a few extra lands is where I want to be, so I've typically run 13-14 lands so I can max out Coliseum without causing myself problems.
I've been a very vocal member of the *Force of Will* tribe. I'm still running it currently, but I swing between FoW and a traditional list.
Like you, I've had nights where FoW just slayed my unsuspecting my opponents and I end up winning games I don't deserve to. But I've also had whole meets where I didn't counter a single thing successfully and I ended up wondering if I'm diluting my maindeck with 4xFoW for no good reason.
So Ron, are you using it out of the side? Have you ever used it main?
Whew! Just typed a pretty long response that got lost in the aether.
I'm on quads of all the stalwarts (except no Putrid Imp), double Amalgam, singleton Dread Return (no added targets), 13 lands. Full quad of Force in the 'board, and I've been replacing LED with it because they don't work together, but again, I'm not sure whether I'm doing it right. I've been considering putting a couple of PImps in the 'board to go full-on attrition mode; anyone tried that?
I've never tried using it in the maindeck because of the LED thing. What about you? Seems pretty good if you can pull it off. I guess the best way to put it is that Force looks like it shouldn't work, except when it does. But surprise is a powerful advantage in this game, even though I feel like I shouldn't be winning when it works because it does clash with our engine to an extent.
Look up username "Parcher" in the old thread for a starting point. He's an experienced tourney player who has run force on occasion. I may have posted my lists also, but really there's not many differences main, and sideboard options tend to vary due to your meta.
As for what your maindeck config is - just keep your blue count as high as you can > a full suite of B-thru, CS, Narc and at least 2 Prized Amalgam.
When you side in FoW you should have at least 16 blue to support.
Boarding for me tends to be conservative. I try not to board in more than 4 or 5 cards. Meta dependent.
I tend to board dependant on what hate I expect them to play, terminal hate that stops us cold is my overall focus.
Just Rest In peace? +4 Force, -4 LED. FoW works here as RiP & Terminus are best buds so we're forced to play slow anyway, sometimes I'll bring in Serenity aswell here.
Leyline of the Void? +3 Serenity, +2 Wispmare, -4 LED, -1 Thug/something else. I run Wispmare as I see LotV & RiP a lot.
I've been riding FoW after game1 for a long while, maybe too much, mainly because I wanted to test the hell out of it. I've run it in LED-dredge for quite a while, and in manaless-blue for even longer. Few dredge players have been testing it that I know of, so it's been tough to really be unbiased about how I feel about it.
I like it, but the lower-than-optimal blue count is a sticking point for sure.
I'm considering going back to this. Force main is where I'm at right now, but after picking up my deck I realise my list compared to yours;
-1 rainbow land (12 total), -1 Icky, No pimp, -1 DR, +3 FoW.
I thought I had 1 DR, 4 FoW & 13 land in there but it seems I don't!
Yeah I agree with where you're going here. I've been running 3 in the main (I thought I had 4) lately but that will probably change, the list feels too compromised, but then I've experimented with my dredge list constantly for years. FoW in the side feels like the best place for it in all the testing I've done - I feel we sacrifice too much with it in the main.
I've got a legacy night this Thursday, pretty keen as I've missed a fair few nights this year. Think I'll take this along;
4x Cephalid Coliseum
2x City of Ass
4x Gemstone Mine
3x Mana Confluence
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
2x Prized Amalgam
4x Stinkweed Imp
1x Sylvan Library
4x Bridge from Below
4x Breakthrough
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Careful Study
4x Faithless Looting
SIDE;
2 Dread Return
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Firestorm
4 Force of Will
3 Serenity
2 Wispmare
Love the revamped Primer and glad to see a fellow GY deck getting some love and results. If it wasn't for the LEDs I'd invest into the deck again as it is super cheap and the boogyman of the format.
Hey everyone,
My name is Vissah and I am looking to start up Legacy LED Dredge.
I been playing Modern Dredge for a while now and it is by far the most fun style of deck I ever played but we all know how Modern goes.
The constant talks and pressure of the banhammer that hangs above that format is starting to bother me more and more and let`s not start about all the constant negativity and complaining seen in the Modern community.
Now I am feeling happy because there is only one expensive card in the for of Lion`s Eye Diamond and I already have a lot of Dredge cards because I been playing it in Modern does make the step into Legacy easier for me.
I have to admit I am a little bit intimadated by starting Legacy because I think it is a pretty intimidating format. I been playing Modern since I started playing Magic and Modern was only a year old when I got into it so I know most of the Modern cards and deck names and all that.
Now to the fun part.
I really like the look of the Quadlazer Dredge decks. I just love decks that play mostly four offs but I would really like to include a Dread Return with a nice big fatty in the main because I think that is cool to play.
Anyway is the Quadlazer version a viable option and yes what would you take out of you want to include a Dread Return and some sort of fatty/combo element?
Thanks.
Welcome aboard Vissah.
To be honest, legacy isn't much different. The difference as I see it, is that the larger card pool enables rogue decks to cause a splash on occasion. Dredge can be like that.... kinda, but mainly due to graveyard decks being less effective (outside Reanimator) or prevalent than they used to. The upside of that, is that not every opponent will run terminal hate. The most common hate I see is easily Surgical Extraction.
Many people say the quadlazer version is the best. I ran it for quite some time, and its definitely a great place to start.
Personally, if you want to include a fatty/DR element, I'd try drop 2 Pimp 1st, or 2 Bthru 2nd, and experiment from there.
Just bear in mind, DR targeting a GGT is a decent play a lot of the time.
Thanks for the response mate.
I think I will be getting the cards for the Quadlaser build because I think that will be a good starting place.
I just like to play Magic and I don`t have that much time to attend FNM anymore but on a Saturday my local store almost always holds a Legacy tournament.
Anyway I will be keeping a look at this site and this thread for information.
Thanks.
Okay so I went to the local last night. My list is only a few posts previous.
I went 4-1 !!
I got lucky and dodged the eldrazi & BUG players!
Beat ANT 2-1, Mono-R Painted-Stone 2-0, UW Miracles 2-1 & some mono-blue combo deck I don't know what he was doin? 2-0.
Lost to D&T 0-2 c/o Helm/RiP combo in the main, I couldn't find an answer in game2.
I was lucky to beat ANT, I usually struggle to beat them even though I usually enjoy a race.
I ran a single Sylvan Library main to test against humans. This time I got to actually use it twice, I sided it out at every opportunity.
It was good, but only because I got 2 lands in my hand. In future it's a cut, although it was kinda cool to land it and go-mini-griselbrand.
On the ANT matchup;
What do you guys usually name (with therapy) for that opponent?
I usually name rituals early, by t3-4 I tend to go for the Tutor. I'm not sure if this is what I should be trying to do, as my winning% against this guy is abysmal.
Thoughts?
Against ANT I would have normally named Infernal Tutor, but with the help of PIF its made that line much worse because they can get themselves into a position to flashback and win viably. I would be more inclined nowadays to name LED if they have elected to not just drop it onto the battlefield right away (sucks for them trying to save it for storm count). This card not only gives them the mana they need, but it allows them to go Hellbent turning on Infernal Tutor; there are games where they will be stuck with either multiple lands, several cantrips, or have to cabal therapy themselves to go hellbent which is much worse and takes more time. So I would name LED, Infernal Tutor, Dark Rituals and go from there.
EDIT: Obviously you will have anecdotal games where if you would have named the rituals you would have won, but imo that doesn't mean thats what you name. They're less likely to have rituals into Ad Naseum/Dark Petition than they are of having Rituals into Infernal Tutor. Hope that makes sense. xD
#return
I would encourage you to get into contact with regular Dredge pilots. I say this because you will not (unfortunately) find many examples of Dredge decks if you peruse lists on Star City or mtgtop8.com. The reason for this is because the Dredge pilots you find on those sites have either (a) responded to their metagame well enough to place, (b) are hardcore Dredge players (all the more reason), or (c) have been lucky (goddamnit). Send a message to us. Mike, Parcher, Joseph (Que), slave, myself, or others that are regulars here are excited to share our secrets and experiences with you. I can't speak for others, but for me this mechanic and this archetype is a project we have worked our asses off to better, usually to no recognition. We WANT you to enjoy it like we do!
As for the FOW argument, I'm pretty close to agreement with slave's argument. I don't like it in my list (on page 1) because I'm not playing Careful Study. I want about 15-16 cards to support it, even though I'm casting it a max of one time in my post-board matches. I find I like my other catch-all responses (Wear/Tear, Wispmare, Nature's Claim, etc.) good enough to put in place for it. There are some times I don't want to hold all those cards in my hand to enable it. There are some times it just doesn't matter. In my experience, I'm holding it for Surgical Extraction (which we play around), or Containment Priest (which either dies to Firestorm or doesn't die). This goes back to point 1 above: go by your own experience.
Good discussion. More more more.
I went out last Saturday to get started with my deck.
This is what I made up. It is a standard Quadlaser deck with 1 Dread Return because I think that card is really cool.
I am thinking of taking out Street Wraith and replace them with 2 Prized Amalgam and 2 Careful Study.
You guys think I can start learning the format with this deck and also got a good chance to win some games left and right?
LANDS
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
CREATURES
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
1 Dread Return
8 OTHER SPELLS
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
SIDEBOARD
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ashen Rider
1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Firestorm
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Nature's Claim
Last edited by Vissah; 10-30-2017 at 05:22 AM.
If I was going to play Quadlazer today I would probably replace all four Breakthrough for the Street Wraith rather than cut all the Careful Study. Sure Study is weaker but its more efficient in what you need the deck to be doing. Losing Breakthrough sucks, but you make up for some of the power lost through sheer speed with Street Wraith allowing you to Careful Study/Faithless/Putrid Imp turn one and start dredging right away. You can also run into a sample situation where you don't have any lands, but you have LED, Street Wraith, Faithless Looting and at least 1 dredger where you can drop the LED, Cycle Street Wraith retaining priority and Saccing the LED for red mana and allowing you to dredge off the Street Wraith for an extra dredge before you flashback faithless looting. :)
The only concern in the sideboard I have is the lonely 2 Nature's Claim. Sure you have 2 grudge, but those only hit artifacts and they don't reasonably handle Graffdiggers Cage. I would at the very least cut either a Grudge (but only if your meta is light on Stompy/heavy artifacts) or a firestorm to include the 3rd claim. Or include something like Chain of Vapor which is a pseudo answer and more versatile across other matchups like Reanimator.
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