[Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

[Megadeus]

I'm actually kinda sick of hearing that if kotr is active you should be winning already. It might be a bit of an exageration: She gets chumped for days, gets killed by most removal and opponent doesn't usually have only nonbasics in their deck so you need something to make opponent scared of her. If you're staring at a TNN or a Strix, you want to do something else than just getting more mana (would you really play a 3cc mana dork, even if it generated 4 mana by itself?)

TLDR, most decks have ways to deal with her, she's "just a creature", even IF she is big (with that many DRS around she doesn't get much bigger than 5-6 lately). That's why you either need craddle + something to dump lots of mana into, the DD combo or a land that allows her to hit face.

You know what card doesn't care about TNN or Strix that you can search for that still allows you to play Cradle? Rogue's Passage. That and it single handedly wins a stalled board against Death and Taxes. Nice Mother of Runes plus million creatures. Take 10.

[Cpt-Qc]

Yeah that's a great option to dump mana into. As I said, you need something else to make kotr scary cause by herself she's not that bad anymore.

[menloe]

I'm on 23 mana producing lands atm so 1 more than you but I was thinking that we might not even need 2 forest anymore and going down to 22 mana producing lands might be enough.. The most efficient way to trim would be to shave 1 basic or 1 bayou. Do you run 3 black sources or 3 basics?

I'm trying to make my land package a little more attractive by adding maybe maze, cavern or even cradle in addition to the DD combo.

Edit: Or I could also play the 8th fetch...

I like three basics honestly. I don't always run three, but that configuration has tended to be my favorite. My current build has two basics and a Cavern.

The idea of another Bayou appeals to me but the difference in price between that and my preferred basic forest (Unglued, natch) is $230 that I don't want to spend. So far one Bayou and one Scrubland has worked just fine for me.

It doesn't hurt to try, especially if you're mostly battling at your weekly local. I have a feeling you can get away with most but not all of what you're suggesting. The problem with DD, Maze, and Gaea's Cradle all at the same time is the chance of drawing too many colorless/non-mana producing sources. But being able to tutor them at will is obviously cool. I've thrown in Volrath's Stronghold and other misc lands using that rationale.

Megadeus has a point about Rogue's Passage. The ability to resolve problematic board states with one less card than the DD combo looks good to me.

[Stuart]

As a quick thought: if DRS gets banned, Wasteland gets stronger, and then our basics look better. I'd plan on your manabase including 3+ basics after next week.

[Cpt-Qc]

As a quick thought: if DRS gets banned, Wasteland gets stronger, and then our basics look better. I'd plan on your manabase including 3+ basics after next week.

I'd love that if drs got banned but it's not happening anytime soon. It took them 4 years of miracles dominating the format before they took 1 piece out. This is way too fast.

[Zasse]

4cc matchups are the worst! Always feel so extremly underpowered and get to keep nothing while they cantrip or 2 for 1 us:

Hymn and Kolaghan being especially annoying paired with that occasionally snappy...

Any suggestions, tips, or something? Trying voice and renegade rallier in the main, Gideon Ally and Lili last hope in sb

Is it worth to bring in zealous? Thoughtseize?

[menloe]

As a quick thought: if DRS gets banned, Wasteland gets stronger, and then our basics look better. I'd plan on your manabase including 3+ basics after next week.

RIP my wallet after having to buy three more Heirarchs :(

But dats cool, eff DRS.

[lavafrogg]

Would we gain or lose from a DRS ban? I would argue that we are in a better place with dRS than we are without.

I can see knight being larger and wasteland being more effective but DRS helps with our splashes as well as giving us more game against graveyard strategies and burn.

[haganbmj]

Would we gain or lose from a DRS ban? I would argue that we are in a better place with dRS than we are without.

I can see knight being larger and wasteland being more effective but DRS helps with our splashes as well as giving us more game against graveyard strategies and burn.

With any luck a Deathrite ban would be accompanied by Griselbrand to make reanimator a bit less ludicrous.
There are plenty of non-Deathrite graveyard tools, though. Before Deathrite was printed I was a fan of Crop Rotation + Bojuka Bog in Maverick.

[menloe]

Would we gain or lose from a DRS ban? I would argue that we are in a better place with dRS than we are without.

I can see knight being larger and wasteland being more effective but DRS helps with our splashes as well as giving us more game against graveyard strategies and burn.

I tend to think better for the reasons you give. I find DRS to be underwhelming in Maverick as we have access to far better dorks. Mostly it feels like it's there to play that annoying DRS standoff mini game than to squelch the turn 2 fuckery from Reanimator et al.

We'd still have pretty good game against graveyard strategies. The majority of anti-graveyard cards are not DRS and we still get to run all the good ones. Not sure about burn, but I always felt like DRS didn't do enough in that matchup...

[lavafrogg]

I tend to think better for the reasons you give. I find DRS to be underwhelming in Maverick as we have access to far better dorks. Mostly it feels like it's there to play that annoying DRS standoff mini game than to squelch the turn 2 fuckery from Reanimator et al.

We'd still have pretty good game against graveyard strategies. The majority of anti-graveyard cards are not DRS and we still get to run all the good ones. Not sure about burn, but I always felt like DRS didn't do enough in that matchup...

The main reason in my head is not one I stated.

If DRS gets banned, what becomes the new “best” deck? I think UW Miracles is in prime position to take the top dog position and would continue to make our lives miserable. What else would challenge Miracles?

[timmyod17]

I tend to think better for the reasons you give. I find DRS to be underwhelming in Maverick as we have access to far better dorks. Mostly it feels like it's there to play that annoying DRS standoff mini game than to squelch the turn 2 fuckery from Reanimator et al.

We'd still have pretty good game against graveyard strategies. The majority of anti-graveyard cards are not DRS and we still get to run all the good ones. Not sure about burn, but I always felt like DRS didn't do enough in that matchup...

I agree with this in general. I think Maverick actually would benefit slightly from a ban. Knight, Wasteland, Excavator, Ooze, Rallier all get much better in this scenario. Thalia also gets somewhat better as well with fewer mana dorks running around in the metagame.

I suspect most Maverick builds would then go to 4 Nobles, which would give most builds of the deck at least 16 humans main deck (4x Mother, Thalia, Noble, Knight) not including more fringe cards like Rallier, Tireless Tracker, Sylvan Safekeeper and sideboard fare like Canonist and Prelate. With that many humans I think it makes sense to try 1-2x Cavern of Souls, which would be nice as I've seen a fair bit of Counterbalance out of Miracles decks over the past few months at larger events.

4c Pile type decks would bite the dust. Grixis Delver would be no more. BUG Delver will be somewhat neutered as well. Elves will take a hit but probably be OK. Agreed that Miracles would benefit. There would probably be lots of U/R Delver as I'd imagine people would switch from Grixis and BUG, and Eldrazi could come back to fight Miracles and U/R. Maybe RUG Delver would become a thing again without DRS laughing at Nimble Mongoose?

[Rascalyote]

RIP my wallet after having to buy three more Heirarchs :(

But dats cool, eff DRS.

I'm not looking forward to getting 3 more Judge Nobles if that's the case :(.

Also all versions of the card are sold out on SCG, speculation?

[menloe]

I mentioned lorkac's Scrub's Land series on reddit before. I think they make a lot of really compelling points RE DRS (not necessarily pro-ban, but appears to incline that way)/Maverick's position in a post-ban world. Those posts are not your average reddit neck beardery (sorry redditors ) and are well worth a read.

The right number of dorks seems to be about six. BoP gives access to splash colors and NH helps serve the beats. BoP supports our black sideboard cards (and maindeck Decays if anyone is still on that) but is underwhelming in multiples. NH is bad for splashing but is great in multiples (stacking on exalted triggers is no joke). My guess is we want three NH and two BoP + GSZ for Dryad Arbor for the dorkage. Any thoughts?

[Fatal]

I mentioned lorkac's Scrub's Land series on reddit before. I think they make a lot of really compelling points RE DRS (not necessarily pro-ban, but appears to incline that way)/Maverick's position in a post-ban world. Those posts are not your average reddit neck beardery (sorry redditors ) and are well worth a read.

The right number of dorks seems to be about six. BoP gives access to splash colors and NH helps serve the beats. BoP supports our black sideboard cards (and maindeck Decays if anyone is still on that) but is underwhelming in multiples. NH is bad for splashing but is great in multiples (stacking on exalted triggers is no joke). My guess is we want three NH and two BoP + GSZ for Dryad Arbor for the dorkage. Any thoughts?

I suggest 4 NH and 1 Bop - Bops are very poor in multiple and it increase risk of sweep.

Few words after Shaman Ban (if it occur):
- We will be much more expose for -1/-1 effects
- Knight became again best 3 cmc thread which must be killed asap - since it will be proper size (in mid 5/5 is normal in late 10/10 or bigger is normal)
- Our not great machup will disappear - 4c with basics without DRS can't exist - BUG will back but it will be much worst - maybe they start to play other dork like Hierarch
- RUG will replace Grixis Delver (almost sure)
- Reanimator will be again much better (maybe even tier 1) specially Blue version.
- Dredge will be much common then today

My prediction to top tiers decks:

Tier 1:
- Miracles (rise)
- RUG Delver (big rise)
- Sneak Show (big rise)
- Reanimator (big rise)
- Stoneblade UW (big rise)
- Lands (rise)
- ANT (stable)
- Death & Taxes (stable)

Tier 2:
- Eldrazi Stompy (down)
- Infect (stable)
- Maverick (rise)
- Dragon Stompy (down)
- Dredge (rise)
- Turbo Depths (down)
- MUD (rise)
- Aggro Loam (rise)
- Aluren (down)
- Food Chain (down)
- Turbo Eldrazi (rise)
- Team America (with Goose and Dark Confidants) - (rise)
- Burn (stable)
- TES (stable)
- UWR Delver (stable)
- High Tide (rise)

Tier 3:
- Pox (stable)
- Death Ale Guy (down)
- Eva Green (stable)
- The Rock (stable)
- Imperial Painter (down)
- Jund (down)
- Nic Fit (stable)
- The Gate (down)

- Enchantress
- Merfolks
- Goblins
- Solider Stompy
- Thalia Stompy
- Shardless BUG
- Stoneblade Bant
- Team Italia
- Mono U OmniTell
- Big Red
- Belcher
and all other decks which are predators and can win even a whole tournament, but they are also so unique that I don't remember theirs names :-).

[lavafrogg]

I firmly do not believe that DRS will be banned and do not want to see it get the ax either way.

I like that we are a deck that gets to play the most broken creature in the format, along with the rest of out degenerate squad, and he gives us a ton of game against a wide variety of decks.

What I feel needs to happen isn't with the banned list, but with the printing of new cards. GW needs another teeg/thalia type hatebear that punishes the cantrip/counter style of blue decks. Leovold needed to be GWB instead of GUB for its taxing effects and protection offset. TNN needed to be a white creature, as that is what protection historically has been.

I will say that they did a great job for DnT the past few releases, but GSZ and friends have largely been left out.

[Rascalyote]

I firmly do not believe that DRS will be banned and do not want to see it get the ax either way.

I like that we are a deck that gets to play the most broken creature in the format, along with the rest of out degenerate squad, and he gives us a ton of game against a wide variety of decks.

What I feel needs to happen isn't with the banned list, but with the printing of new cards. GW needs another teeg/thalia type hatebear that punishes the cantrip/counter style of blue decks. Leovold needed to be GWB instead of GUB for its taxing effects and protection offset. TNN needed to be a white creature, as that is what protection historically has been.

I will say that they did a great job for DnT the past few releases, but GSZ and friends have largely been left out.

To be fair tracker, snake, and Rallier are all pretty good and a step in the right direction, but Id like more stuff that costs 2. A bear that fights when it comes into play? A green thalia? Now that'd be some powerful (and unlikely) help

[lavafrogg]

To be fair tracker, snake, and Rallier are all pretty good and a step in the right direction, but Id like more stuff that costs 2. A bear that fights when it comes into play? A green thalia? Now that'd be some powerful (and unlikely) help

Omg. I would love a 2/3 for 2 that fought a creature on EtB, a 2/2 for GW that did relevant fair things. A GWW 3/3 with a unique skill set. Any form of card advantage attached to a green 2 drop.

Just more GSZ targets that are relevant in the early game. At our core we are a GSZ deck, we need power creep on our targets that differentiate us from them.

[menloe]

I firmly do not believe that DRS will be banned and do not want to see it get the ax either way.

I like that we are a deck that gets to play the most broken creature in the format, along with the rest of out degenerate squad, and he gives us a ton of game against a wide variety of decks.

What I feel needs to happen isn't with the banned list, but with the printing of new cards. GW needs another teeg/thalia type hatebear that punishes the cantrip/counter style of blue decks. Leovold needed to be GWB instead of GUB for its taxing effects and protection offset. TNN needed to be a white creature, as that is what protection historically has been.

I will say that they did a great job for DnT the past few releases, but GSZ and friends have largely been left out.

I like the cut of your jib. We're not likely to see the overt favoritism that DnT has been treated to lately, but more powerful green creatures are basically inevitable at this point. That may be the way forward, as you say.

I don’t think DRS is particularly broken in Maverick. I would call it a powerful but fair card in Maverick that is often bad at what a predominantly green shell needs it for in most match ups: ramping to a turn 3 KotR or turn 2 Thalia/Wasteland/say go.

That isn’t to say it’s not a worthwhile inclusion in Maverick. It checks all the boxes: it’s a GSZ-targetable (modal!) spell with power/toughness. However, I don’t think the card would be a four of auto-include in every Maverick list but for the need to counter opposing DRS. (Noble Hierarch in particular is better at supporting our plan A because its primary ability is not contingent on anything other than untapping.) We have to be able to counter their ramp in the early game and their “drain you for two” every turn in the late game or risk getting buried.

I would argue that Maverick suffers in a meta where the top two decks also get to run DRS. Opposing DRSes limit the number of times we can activate any of its abilities and give these decks a counter to all the facets of our plan A. It could even be worse for or us than it is for a deck like B/R Reanimator. At least they can still win on turn 1.

That’s what makes it a broken card: the fact that the top two decks are UBRg and get to (a) run four out of five colors’ best spells with virtually no draw back; (b) elbow in on our cool shit (ramp/dorks that do stuff); and, (c) wreck our game plan specifically. They also have more cards to deal with our DRS than we do theirs so it’s usually the UBRg player who’s reaping the full benefit of the card. Totally fine and fair in a green deck, but broken and unfair outside of a green deck.

[Claymore]

Reading the report from the Maverick player that Top 8'd the GP, she got bailed out a ton of times by DRS. Either life gain against aggro, stopping Reanimator, or smoothing mana. I'm not sure what you can supplement by just shoving in Noble and Birds to replace DRS, but the deck is going to have to shift (Scooze) in order to fill that gap - or the sideboard changes significantly.