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Thread: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

  1. #81
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    Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

    Quote Originally Posted by Oathbreakers View Post
    Question about planeswalkers

    I noticed I see less Garruk Relentless and more Gideon AoZ, Any specific reason? When do I want the one over the Other. I’m currently on a stock Leovold Maverick List, I feel it’s better positioned in my Local meta of Lands Stoneblade and Linear Combo Decks
    Gideon is better basically 100% of the time, unless you can't cast him. Since mana isn't being punished as much currently the WW doesn't keep him out of the deck. Elspeth is pretty good too, but it's telling that people are choosing Gideon; because Gideon is much much better at killing Jace; where Elspeth is better at getting around TNN.

    Use Garruk if you find yourself with Gideon stuck in hand due to WW a lot (or improve your manabase.) Use Gideon if you find yourself losing to Jace a lot. Use Elspeth if you find yourself stuck behind TNN a lot (flying is really good; and KotR being a 5/5 Flyer before you count your lands is ridiculous.)

    I'd rather use Elspeth myself a lot of the time; but Gideon's clock is nothing to be sniffed at.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

  2. #82

    Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

    Liste Top8 Main Event Nebraska’s War 5.0
    292 players
    2-3 dec. 2017

    6th place - Maverick di Alexey Romanchuk

    Maindeck: (61)
    1 Bayou
    1 Cavern of Souls
    1 Dark Depths
    1 Dryad Arbor
    2 Forest
    1 Karakas
    1 Marsh Flats
    1 Plains
    2 Savannah
    1 Scrubland
    1 Thespian’s Stage
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Wasteland
    4 Windswept Heath

    1 Abrupt Decay
    1 Birds of Paradise
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    4 Green Sun’s Zenith
    4 Knight of the Reliquary
    3 Mother of Runes
    1 Qasali Pridemage
    1 Ramunap Excavator
    1 Renegade Rallier
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    1 Scryb Ranger
    2 Stoneforge Mystic
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Sylvan Safekeeper
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    1 Umezawa’s Jitte

    SB: (15)
    1 Abrupt Decay
    1 Containment Priest
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
    2 Sanctum Prelate
    2 Surgical Extraction
    3 Thoughtseize
    2 Zealous Persecution

  3. #83
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    Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

    Question for all the Punishing players in the room.

    I see that most lists don't play Thalia in the main, and some don't even run her in the SB. How do you deal with combo (particularly storm and sneak/show)? I would feel so underprepared for those matchups, and they aren't exactly fringe decks.

  4. #84
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    Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

    Quote Originally Posted by timmyod17 View Post
    Question for all the Punishing players in the room.

    I see that most lists don't play Thalia in the main, and some don't even run her in the SB. How do you deal with combo (particularly storm and sneak/show)? I would feel so underprepared for those matchups, and they aren't exactly fringe decks.
    Pray to whatever gods you worship. Joking aside, you still have access to x2 Teeg father at a minimum (1 main, 1 side), and most lists run some number of Cannonists or Prelates in the side. This is enough hate to put up a decent fight games 2 & 3. However, you will always be at a disadvantage since you have to win both sideboard games, which is all the more challenging because the combo player generally knows what we fair players in G/W side in for the match up. Sequencing counts for a lot at this point, but sometimes ya just gotta stick the hate you have. Teeg turnning off Massacre (against Storm) + their combo pieces (against Storm et al) followed by a second piece of hate is the most legit of moves.

    I like the lists that run Thalia in the sideboard and I think that might be where you want to go. The idea is Punishing Fire is a shit card in match ups where Thalia shines, so it makes sideboarding that much easier. Another option is E-Tutor side with Cannonist and other non-creature hate, which is the strategy I've employed and enjoyed in months past.
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  5. #85
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    Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

    Quote Originally Posted by timmyod17 View Post
    Question for all the Punishing players in the room.

    I see that most lists don't play Thalia in the main, and some don't even run her in the SB. How do you deal with combo (particularly storm and sneak/show)? I would feel so underprepared for those matchups, and they aren't exactly fringe decks.
    As menloe said, Teeg/Canonist and pray. I find that mom + either teeg or canonist generally wins games against storm. Of course, there's always the chance they'll open nuts and combo off turn 1-2, but there's nothing we can do about that (unless you run Mindbreaks or something).

    On another note, I went 1-2 against Sneak and Show, which is better than going 0-2. I could have maybe won game 3 if I had sequenced my plays better (I crop rotationed for a basic plains since I was stuck under double blood moon but forgot since I had used my green source for rotation I couldn't cast knight that turn).

  6. #86

    Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
    Hey guys, shameless plug: the podcast I'm a member of just did an episode on Knight of the Reliquary and, by extension, Maverick. Give it a listen if podcasts are your thing. None of us are experts, so you guys might disagree with some of our points, but it was fun to spend 90 minutes chatting about Knight decks.

    I posted it in Format & Article Discussion, but it's also on our website!
    I dug this pod man, thanks for posting! Do any of you guys know of any other recent maverick podcasts I can check out that involve things like gameplay decisions, deck building choices etc? Thanks!

  7. #87
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    Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

    Quote Originally Posted by menloe View Post

    ...

    However, you will always be at a disadvantage since you have to win both sideboard games, which is all the more challenging because the combo player generally knows what we fair players in G/W side in for the match up.

    ...
    This is inaccurate because A.N.T. is stone cold dead to G. Teeg in game 1, which means that even without Thalia in your deck you have a good shot at taking the 1st game. Afterwards the match becomes way easier since you get game 3 on the play.

    T.E.S. is another story - even with maindeck Thalia its an unfavorable matchup because they can go off very quickly.

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    Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphix View Post
    This is inaccurate because A.N.T. is stone cold dead to G. Teeg in game 1, which means that even without Thalia in your deck you have a good shot at taking the 1st game. Afterwards the match becomes way easier since you get game 3 on the play.

    T.E.S. is another story - even with maindeck Thalia its an unfavorable matchup because they can go off very quickly.
    Yes but most routes don't kill instantly and ends with big EtW which can be handled by Zealous Persecution.

  9. #89

    Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

    Quote Originally Posted by menloe View Post
    Pray to whatever gods you worship. Joking aside, you still have access to x2 Teeg father at a minimum (1 main, 1 side), and most lists run some number of Cannonists or Prelates in the side. This is enough hate to put up a decent fight games 2 & 3. However, you will always be at a disadvantage since you have to win both sideboard games, which is all the more challenging because the combo player generally knows what we fair players in G/W side in for the match up. Sequencing counts for a lot at this point, but sometimes ya just gotta stick the hate you have. Teeg turnning off Massacre (against Storm) + their combo pieces (against Storm et al) followed by a second piece of hate is the most legit of moves.

    I like the lists that run Thalia in the sideboard and I think that might be where you want to go. The idea is Punishing Fire is a shit card in match ups where Thalia shines, so it makes sideboarding that much easier. Another option is E-Tutor side with Cannonist and other non-creature hate, which is the strategy I've employed and enjoyed in months past.
    2-3 Thalia GoT in mb for my punishing maverick has been fine. she's great against grixis delver or at least done well in testing for me. i also run 3 drs, 1 hierarch and 1 bop. maybe it's my meta but combo shows up for big events (1k+).

    arlinn kord deserves to be in the naya pw discussion. she can force damage thru with knight, haste is legit and a fine token maker.

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    Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

    Hey guys. Was hoping I could get some feedback on my new Punishing Maverick list.

    Lands (24)
    4 Windswept Heath
    3 Wooded Foothills
    3 Grove of the Burnwillows
    3 Wasteland
    2 Savannah
    1 Taiga
    1 Bayou
    1 Scrubland
    1 Thespian's Stage
    1 Dark Depths
    1 Karakas
    1 Dryad Arbor
    1 Forest
    1 Plains

    Creatures (22)
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    3 Mother of Runes
    3 Thalia, GoT
    2 Stoneforge Mystic
    2 Qasali Pridemage
    1 Scryb Ranger
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    4 Knight of the Reliquary
    1 Ramunap Excavator

    Spells (14)
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    4 Punishing Fire
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice

    Sideboard (Work in progress)
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Sanctum Prelate
    1 Containment Priest

    2 Pyroblast
    3 Thoughtseize

    1 Sword of Light and Shadow
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Choke

    Specific things I'm seeking feedback on:
    - Scrubland vs Plateau. Currently running the Scrubland. Having a 2nd black source to cast SB thoughtseizes and for DRS activation is nice. Or do people really feel like Plateau is too important to have? (If I were to play the Scrubland, I could also use my expedition Verdant Catacombs as well )
    - Stoneforge package. I've seen some people straight up omitting this nowadays. I feel like this deck can outgrind all the fair decks, which is where the Equips shine to begin with. I would be concerned about losing SoFI as it's one of our best ways to get past True Name Nemesis, though.
    - Pyroblasts / REBs . I've seen some lists playing 2x of each of these in the sideboard. What is the rationale for the split? And do people think it's worthwhile to have a full set of this effect?

  11. #91
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    Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

    Quote Originally Posted by timmyod17 View Post
    Pyroblasts / REBs . I've seen some lists playing 2x of each of these in the sideboard. What is the rationale for the split? And do people think it's worthwhile to have a full set of this effect?
    I'll just comment on the split. It rarely matters for your purposes which version you play, exception could be Misdirection of Pyroblast onto a non-blue permanent. However, by splitting your deck becomes less vulnerable to Cabal Therapy, Surgical Extraction and other extraction effects, and Meddling Mage.
    Currently playing/brewing: Grixis Painter, all Maverick versions, Planeswalker Nic Fit, Cloudpost Fit, MOST and then some.

  12. #92
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    Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

    Quote Originally Posted by timmyod17 View Post
    Hey guys. Was hoping I could get some feedback on my new Punishing Maverick list.

    ...

    Specific things I'm seeking feedback on:
    - Scrubland vs Plateau. Currently running the Scrubland. Having a 2nd black source to cast SB thoughtseizes and for DRS activation is nice. Or do people really feel like Plateau is too important to have?
    I haven't seen any successful Punishing lists incorporating discard in the SB, but I suspect it hasn't been tested enough. If trying this the Scrubland is definitely necessary, but in that case I suggest further cutting the Plains for a Plateau, and possibly the Forest for a 2nd Taiga as well. The unwritten rule of thumb is to play 3 fetchable Red sources, typically 2 Taiga and 1 Plateau. You need 2 non-Grove Red sources to use the Punishing Fire engine efficiently, and the 3rd is mainly insurance against Wastelands. If you're playing Excavator, you can probably get away with only 2, but I wouldn't play fewer than 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by timmyod17 View Post
    (If I were to play the Scrubland, I could also use my expedition Verdant Catacombs as well )
    That's not a good thing

    As an aside, with 2 Black sources I would play Zealous Persecution in the SB, it is very good in the current meta.

    Quote Originally Posted by timmyod17 View Post
    - Stoneforge package. I've seen some people straight up omitting this nowadays. I feel like this deck can outgrind all the fair decks, which is where the Equips shine to begin with. I would be concerned about losing SoFI as it's one of our best ways to get past True Name Nemesis, though.
    Punishing Maverick is better equipped to drop the SFM package than GWb because it can grind with the Punishing Fire engine. However, after testing some cards to replace the SFM package a few months ago, I concluded none of them are better than playing 2 SFM, 1 Jitte, and 1 Sword.

    Quote Originally Posted by timmyod17 View Post
    - Pyroblasts / REBs . I've seen some lists playing 2x of each of these in the sideboard. What is the rationale for the split? And do people think it's worthwhile to have a full set of this effect?
    Pyroblast is better in a list with DRS since you can target anything for it to enter the graveyard in a pinch as fuel for DRS.

  13. #93
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    Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

    - REB/Pyro Split -> It's also not as weak to Surgical. Given you're playing around on the stack and your opp knows you have exactly one kind of possible counterspell (well.. in this case two!) it's possible that they go for a surgical on that. The other explanation doesn't tell you why you'd ever use REB (aside from artwork or something), and the reason is because you can potentially get a minor edge by splitting the cards.

    - SFM -> While I'm a fan of attempting to get rid of the package when I can, I don't think a deck running Dryad Arbor, Noble, BoP, and other anemic threats without evasion should make those cards that much weaker. Removing SFM is normally a call you can make to make a list faster /more aggro, but Punishing Fire is very much a slower plan.


    An aside, I've done a Young Pyro Punishing/Loam list before (though not mav) and it was quite fun/stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

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    Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphix View Post
    I haven't seen any successful Punishing lists incorporating discard in the SB, but I suspect it hasn't been tested enough. If trying this the Scrubland is definitely necessary, but in that case I suggest further cutting the Plains for a Plateau, and possibly the Forest for a 2nd Taiga as well. The unwritten rule of thumb is to play 3 fetchable Red sources, typically 2 Taiga and 1 Plateau. You need 2 non-Grove Red sources to use the Punishing Fire engine efficiently, and the 3rd is mainly insurance against Wastelands. If you're playing Excavator, you can probably get away with only 2, but I wouldn't play fewer than 2
    Thanks! This is very helpful.

    As a long time GWb player, I have a hard time giving up thoughtseize. I really dislike not having potential turn 1 interaction against fast combo. i want to make it work, but it really contorts the mana base.

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    Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

    Quote Originally Posted by timmyod17 View Post
    Specific things I'm seeking feedback on:
    - Scrubland vs Plateau. Currently running the Scrubland. Having a 2nd black source to cast SB thoughtseizes and for DRS activation is nice. Or do people really feel like Plateau is too important to have? (If I were to play the Scrubland, I could also use my expedition Verdant Catacombs as well )
    - Stoneforge package. I've seen some people straight up omitting this nowadays. I feel like this deck can outgrind all the fair decks, which is where the Equips shine to begin with. I would be concerned about losing SoFI as it's one of our best ways to get past True Name Nemesis, though.
    - Pyroblasts / REBs . I've seen some lists playing 2x of each of these in the sideboard. What is the rationale for the split? And do people think it's worthwhile to have a full set of this effect?
    • Scrubland vs Plateau: Having 3 red non-mana dork sources has been useful against wasteland. It allows your mana advantage to really snowball later in the game to beat down cards like Tombstalker
    • SoFaI is good, but having a Knight and literally any other card in play is basically converting an opposing TNN into a fog bank- they must block Knight or the Punishing Fires turn into the burn you need to finish off the game. I have not played many games against UW Blade decks with 3-4x maindeck TNNs, though, so maybe it's critical there.
    • The split is because of Cabal Therapy. With the sideboard discard, though, maybe going down to 2 is the way to go. I've not been fond of the REB effects because of the awkwardness it poses to timing- Maverick taps out a lot, runs Thalia, and really wants to drop big turn 1 and turn 2 plays- which jives against what REB is good against.


    Playtest and let us know how it goes!

  16. #96
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    Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

    Quote Originally Posted by timmyod17 View Post
    Thanks! This is very helpful.

    As a long time GWb player, I have a hard time giving up thoughtseize. I really dislike not having potential turn 1 interaction against fast combo. i want to make it work, but it really contorts the mana base.
    You do have access to turn 1 combo interaction with GW or Naya: Crop Rotation, Orim's Chant, Surgical Extraction, Mindbreak Trap, Grafdigger's Cage, Pithing Needle, Leyline of Sanctitiy/of the Void, Ravenous Trap, Tormod's Crypt, Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast, Faerie Macabre, etc. None of these options are as versatile as Thoughtseize, but they are available.

    I will add some notes about the Punishing Maverick manabase to the primer.

  17. #97

    Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

    What do we think about the 1st list from the Osaka KMC? Some interesting card Choices

    • equipment package was 1 SFM & 2 Jitte and no other equipment in the 75
    • MD Voice of resurgence
    • Moved a Wasteland to the board in favor of a Cavern of souls
    • SB Meddling Mage

  18. #98
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    Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

    Quote Originally Posted by Oathbreakers View Post
    • equipment package was 1 SFM & 2 Jitte and no other equipment in the 75
    • Moved a Wasteland to the board in favor of a Cavern of souls
    Why run an SFM if you're running 2 jitte? Why not SoFaI as slot 2? I get that natural jitte is quite good for the "gotcha" drop-equip-swing; but.. meh. I'm guessing the person got tired of Jitte blowing up, which is reasonable I guess. That said, swinging through TNN, pyro tokens, and such is probably better. SoFaI also has actual CA attached to it while turning even the most anemic threat into a 4/x. One of it's other benefits is it allows 0/x's to use jitte.

    I think the most powerful play this deck and DGA (when they have it) can make is T1 DRS/Noble/Arbor, T2 Thalia, Wasteland

    IMO, the deck should go out of its way to find more such plays and maximize that line. For instance, a 1x Loam gives you a psuedo Thalia, in the sense that a T2 Waste + Loam is also absurdly good.


    EDIT: On the Mage, MMage is pretty good, though I'd want a blue dual rather than just banking on Noble/DRS/Cavern.
    EDIT2: That said, if I have blue mana.. I think i'd much rather be packing Flusterstorm in those slots. You already have hatebears out the nose, you want more T1 protection.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

  19. #99

    Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

    Quote Originally Posted by tescrin View Post
    I think the most powerful play this deck and DGA (when they have it) can make is T1 DRS/Noble/Arbor, T2 Thalia, Wasteland

    IMO, the deck should go out of its way to find more such plays and maximize that line. For instance, a 1x Loam gives you a psuedo Thalia, in the sense that a T2 Waste + Loam is also absurdly good.


    EDIT: On the Mage, MMage is pretty good, though I'd want a blue dual rather than just banking on Noble/DRS/Cavern.
    EDIT2: That said, if I have blue mana.. I think i'd much rather be packing Flusterstorm in those slots. You already have hatebears out the nose, you want more T1 protection.
    I agree the strongest T1>T2 is DRS>Thalia+Waste

    the Deck ran a trop, it been the norm with Leovold Maverick lately- on that what is better 2 Prelate or 1 MMage - 1 Prelate

  20. #100

    Re: [Primer] Maverick 2.0 - GW/x

    How are you guys feeling about tracker these days in maverick? Too slow or great for CA?

    Also, I'm curious about what you guys think about that winning list running the one of voice of resurgence. Is that worth a spot? It kind of hurts that it would cut a stone forge, knight or abrupt decay though.

    I've been testing more and more with this deck, and love it a lot. Can't wait to grind more with it.

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