I have not seen this cast mentioned here before, I quite enjoy it too. With the talk from the Lone Star boys, then this popping up in my feed, it's been quite the week for Ban talk. I thought I would post this up here because the talk is not about what should be banned but the new topic that is picking up speed "Why are things banned". Have a listen, it's worth it. Find it here.
Oh and Zac: "You know what, screw you guys, Brainstorm's gotta go." Truth. (Please listen to the cast before any of you run with that comment.)
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
Originally Posted by Spam
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
I disagree with much of this cast. I think the talk of pillars in legacy is dumb. In vintage the pillars are basically cards that essentially represents an archetype, and pillars generally can't be played together (because of the vastly differing strategies they represent) if I'm not mistaken. If you tried to apply that to legacy you're basically brainstorm and chalice if so. The only other thing maybe possible is port (since lands and DnT generally don't play Brainstorm or chalice) but even then lands plays chalice at times in the board too. I just think that the idea of untouchable pillars in this format is dumb. I also am curious to see the difference in opinions on whether or not brainstorm should be banned based on how long a player has been playing the format. Based solely on people I know I feel like older players that have played legacy before it was 70+% of the top decks playing brainstorm realize how unhealthy of a card it is. Also I feel like the people that say it's untouchable also are far less likely to have played a deck without to card to much success
Legacy didn't really ever had a "pillar" metagame, more like a package of cards that were pretty unique to each decks, like the old trifecta:
- thresh
- goblin
- storm
Like, threshold cards and the cantrip + daze +fow package. Then the DR+ LED+IT package. Then the lackey+30 goblins etc...
Nowadays, it's got even more blurried.
I'd argue SDT/balance was a pillar that played completely different from the rest of the meta decks, while sporting a lot of the same cards. One reason why i was against SDT ban, as now it all seems to be more tempo-ish oriented and samey, the deck needed a weakening, but not to be killed in its core identity (prison-control).
Survival is another card that could count as a pillar-ish card, since it can't really be played with either the cantrip cartel, storm cards, chalice, or whatever else, it require a pretty specific kind of deck. But it's banned so w/e.
Legacy has also, for really obvious reasons, a lot of build-around-me cards that can't really be called pillars because they don't put out enough numbers, but are still good decks, see Elves! nowadays or Goblins some years ago. SnT, as much as i dislike the card, is also considerably another pillar but don't put out the numbers, luckily.
Also damn that first Extended GP mention is giving me the feels. I played so much extended back in the days just to be able to still play with the dual lands
Also Kird Ape banned was such garbage.
Thanks for posting this, Dice - I wasn't familiar with this cast.
I thought this was a very solid episode, and appreciated framing everything both with historical context and a bigger picture look at why the banned list exists. However, I'll just say that I didn't find Zac's argument for Brainstorm compelling: "Well, we're all here to play Brainstorm so it shouldn't be banned" is pretty hollow.
Thanks Dice, I appreciate it. I'm Nate from this cast. Been waiting to see if we'd pop up here organically before I started posting. Glad you guys liked the way we approached the topic.
Sorry you disagree but hopefully you still enjoyed. I hope you understand from our conversations here that I definitely agree that the cantrip shell is overpowered and crowding out other interesting interactions. (I also said that on the cast).
I am by no means married to Brainstorm as a "pillar" card in the format. But I am trying to be realistic about what might actually happen in the format. With 70% of decks playing Brainstorm, banning it would be dropping a neutron bomb on the format. As much as I would be more excited to play Legacy after that, I think many others would take a break of some length. I worry about the health of the format if that were to happen.
Further, the issue isn't limited to just Brainstorm the card in my opinion. The raw power level of individual cards in the format means that while BS has some very strong/unique corner cases, in most others, Ponder/Preordain would be able to support many of the goodstuff strategies while the loss of Brainstorm would mean more synergy-oriented decks would not be able to keep up. Storm is my go-to for this point.
Honestly, if BS, DRS, and True-Name were all banned Monday, I'm not sure blue fair decks still wouldn't be the best things to be doing. The remaining cantrips would still be on color with Snap and Leovold and the other OP blue creatures, they would still pitch to Force, they would still fuel delve and trigger Pyromancer/Mentor.
The reason Brainstorm has gotten so much better over the years is because of the support it's received from synergistic printings. The fact that blue wedges got Delve and Prowess in Khans and the others got fucking Raid and Outlast was practically what drove me to acquire blue cards. I don't think those mechanics were designed with Legacy in mind, but the fact remains that as long as blue is the spell color, the ceiling for a playable card in the color is lower because of all the spell synergies. Leovold being blue was a dagger. Kess being the only card worth a shit in the new Commander set similar but less so.
If Wizards ever actually wants to take seriously the cantrip saturation in this format, it's going to require a series of "weaning" bans, plus new printing, plus potential unbannings. When I say "weaning" bans I mean they take out the payoff cards, even stuff as innocuous as Gurmag Angler, then some lower-level cantrips (Probe is begging for this I think).
I don't think they are very interested in that, as we discussed -- they seem to see Legacy as a blue/spell format. I'm not sure what we can do about that, but I am going to keep advocating for non-blue strategies as an important part of Legacy.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The imbalance is cause you're conspicuously leaving Dash out of the equation. Mardu Strike Leader kicked Demon Stompy straight up to tier 1.
Ban Probe, leave Brainstorm alone
Maharis I agree. I do believe that blue good stuff decks would still be the best in the format, however Brainstorm is just far and away better than the other two. Ponder/Preordain are very good, but BS being able to swap cards from your hand back into your deck is pretty unique in terms of abilities and is the main difference in power level and what sets it above the others. I just think that at this point it provides this powerful effect for far too efficient of a cost (compared to like Jace 0 ability at 4 mana). Brainstorms ability to put cards back is why decks got to run all the clunky shit like a bunch of Terminus and Jace's, and such. I think ponder/preordain are much closer to the power level of the current format. The efficiency of threats has gotten to the point that I don't feel like the card can stick around for the format to be healthy. I mean really the format is Play brainstorm or play chalice/Thalia too fight it. I guess dark depths combo is in there too but in corner cases. People always point to elves, but I don't see much elves these days except in corner cases. Honestly I think the format is too far gone in terms of dumb broken shit personally. Griselchimp, True Name, Probe, Deathrite. It would take a rash of bans imo to make the format feel like it's somewhat balanced. Between Innistrad block, New Phyrexia, and RTR the format got completely turned on its head
Also I agree that the "don't ban brainstorm because this is the brainstorm format" is incredibly weak and shortsighted. And the people who argue this are the same ones who always drop the #SkillIntensive #GoPlayModern
I think Blue has been the best colour to play without equal since Goblins died. At this point looking for any balance in Colour in legacy is like looking for balance in Fox News. You either agree with it or you don't, but the situations not changing.
Don't ban Brainstorm because Legacy is the last place you can play it is actually untrue. You can play it with Gush in Pauper. Delver is quite strong there too. But that said, I actually feel it is a real argument. "Don't ban it because it's liked" is a reason I feel, at least it is what seems to be the thinking at Wizards. The wish to see it go is not as high as other cards, so they will not rock the boat and take out something that might cause people to really leave the format. It might, it's not causing explicit harm to Legacy the way Top/CB were. (ie you can point at those two cards and see the problems they caused in gameplay) I know this is odd to say about a card that is the most played of any card, in any format as far as I know but, its strength these days is in its stealth. It does little itself. Its "just" a cantrip.
Here is a question that we do not ask often, but it is worth thinking about:
How many people quit because of Brainstorm? I do not think the number is that high. People where leaving thanks to Top, that one I know, but Brainstorm itself? Few I bet.
Now: How many would leave if Brainstorm was taken out? I would say a few. More than have left because its in the format. Would that impact an SCG event? Likely no, people still want to play and will move around to do so. Will that impact a local legacy even with 14 regulars? Yea. You take say 3 people out of that 14, thats a real issue.
Thats not to say I do not think the merits in removing the card outweigh the costs, I want to see it gone. But there are unasked and unanswered questions on this topic that I feel may hold some thinking in Wizards. At least I hope they do. I would really hate to learn that a sign really was the last straw for a card because the outcry was just that bad, and it will take us getting to that point again to be seen and heard again. But I may be wrong, it may be true that the B/R list in Legacy these days is more a PR tool than a format regulation one. With action only taken when it is required due to optics and pacification of online anger.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
It's a buried horse nowadays, but yeah the "you can't ban BS because people just play Ponder" is a slippery slope. Being just another blue spell in the shell didn't stop Treasure cruise and DTT from being banned. Being a "blue format" didn't save them and shouldn't save BS. Having BS free with SotF , Earthcraft, Twist and Recruiter banned is a joke.
I don't see how fair decks that don't cheat on mana will be able to conpete with all the Tomb, Chalice, Blood Moon, Dark Ritual, chrome mox, petal apes when they don't get the benefit of more concistency. You trade power for consicenty and the ability to fine tune your deck with 1 and 2-ofs that answer all the different threats these one-dimensional decks pose.
@Dice box: our local has like 6-14 players. My bet is on more than 3 people. I would gueess, that we would loose 50% in the short turn (I would defenitly leave). Because alot of people dont have the card pool to try new decks or just switch over to something new. And 3-7 people is so low, it would not fire reglulary, cause even more people to leave. And this quickly you swiped it away.
I guess y'all just wanna see the world burn... image how many decks would be rendered unplayable...
Like what? Weakened =|= unplayable. Miracles even survived a SDT ban, aka its core, even though it lost its Tier 0 status that got it banned in the first place. That just makes claims that decks become unplayable without Brainstorm even more ludicrous.
The hyberboles about the necessarity of Brainstorm are unreal.
I don't think you ever played a blue deck seriously did you?
What's the difference between Brainstorm and Top, Ponder, Preordain. Maybe you will find out yourself. Maybe then you would realize that with a brainstorm ban miracle would have been actually dead.
Nope, because I find Brainstorm disgusting.
And you still haven't answered my question: You talk about many decks. Miracles is one, I'll give you that, since Brainstorm is the other half of the deck that keeps the deck functioning. But what about the many others that you've mentioned? You're apparently an expert on the topic and I'll certainly not start to play Brainstorm decks. I'm genuinely curious.
God forbid a blue control/tempo player should have to plan their moves a turn or two ahead of time without having access to Bullshitstorm to fix their mistakes.
Pillar of the format my ass. More like a cheat code for ten extra lives in a Contra game.
Edit: I know this horse is dead. I just felt the need to kick it once. Once.
There is a line between talking about something and moving back to the dead horse and beating it. If we can thread that needle, I wont have to lock this.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
Yeah, who would have guessed.
Delver, Miracles, S&T, Storm and what about any blue midrange deck like cezch pile, stoneblade, bant, grixis pyro, which are actually the ones playing the most interaction in the format. But I guess that's not the concern of somebody who wins their games with sol land, chalice, pray for no force
@Darth Vicous, actually cantrips force you to plan your turns ahead instead of playing of the top like the stompy apes
Do you actually believe that decks like Delver and blue midrange become unplayable without BS?This is insanity. Based on what? Because you can't semi-mulligan your hand or keep Brainstorm open all the time until something happens? I'm actually baffled that there people out there that are serious about what you just said.
No wonder some people want Chalice in Legacy banned.
Yeah, about that. Cantrips are the reason that 'interaction' (read: silver bullets) can be run as a plethora of 1-2 ofs in the SB and still be found as if you're running 8 tutors for all of them, once combined with the fetches and shuffles. Instant speed cantrips combined with fetches is almost as bad as playing against Mystical was.
Just because Chalice is one of the strongest weapons vs. your coveted TricolorTurboXerox.dec doesn't mean it needs to be banned.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote