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Thread: Oops, All Gideons!

  1. #1
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    Oops, All Gideons!

    Regarding the new Planeswalker Rule:

    "Starting with this set, all planeswalkers past, present, and future will have the supertype legendary. They will also be subject to the "legend rule." The "planeswalker uniqueness rule" is going away. What does this mean? In short, everything that's true about legendary permanents will now be true about legendary planeswalkers. Also note that this does not mean legendary planeswalkers can be your Commander unless an ability says so."

    Quite a few people have been talking about a Planeswalker Stompy deck, now that you can have multiple of a same type Planeswalker around. The most popular Planeswalker in this discussion is Gideon - the reason why is obvious: Gideon of the Trials. You can now have multiple gideons out - creating a solid wall of protection based on the gideon token.

    While this rule is not yet in effect (I think), we can start brewing up some sort of gideon deck.

    My starting point, initially, in brewing this deck was this modern take (which came out before the rule): here. Now that modern deck . . . is well modern, and is lacking access to a couple of cards that legacy decks have access to. Primarily Sol Lands and Chalice. Running those cards would obviously change the way the deck would be played. I played around with some of the numbers and came up with a rough sketch of a deck, but square_two provided a more complete list here.

    Playing some games with that list and i've come to a couple conclusions. (1) We definitely need to run wasteland to prevent opposing Karakas interactions (2) 13 Planeswalkers is unneeded and the modern deck was correct that 10 is probably the more correct number. Then not conclusions, but observations (A) i'm not the biggest fan of the old school Wrath and Armogeddon solutions - I sort of feel in 2017 there must be a better way (B) If we are going to run wasteland, then maybe crucible as well?

    Anyway here is a rough list:

    Oops, All Gideons!

    // 25 Lands

    7 Plains
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Wasteland
    4 Flagstones of Trokair
    2 Karakas

    // 18 Artifacts

    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Trinisphere
    4 Mox Diamond
    4 Heart of Kiran
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass (new card)

    // 7 Other

    4 Armageddon
    3 Wrath of God

    // 10 Planeswalkers

    4 Gideon of the Trials
    3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
    3 Gideon Jura

  2. #2

    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    The deck can perfectly run humility. Gives you maindeck outs against unfair matchups (grisel/emrakul) while being able to beat with full strengthgideons and hearts. Perhaps 1 untaidake over a city of traitors?

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    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    i really like this concept. You'll probably be more successful with tabernacles of pendrell vale + armageddon at clearing the board instead of just wrath of gods. Crucible of worlds would also help th strategy. Since u don't have to pay for planes walkers with tabernacle out you have free creatures. Add 1 ghost quarter and the deck becomes very destructive. Giddeons are nice but won't pose enough threat without a way to keep opposing threats at bay.

    @ Bruiser

    How does humility interact with Gideon activations?
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    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    i really like this concept. You'll probably be more successful with tabernacles of pendrell vale + armageddon at clearing the board instead of just wrath of gods. Crucible of worlds would also help th strategy. Since u don't have to pay for planes walkers with tabernacle out you have free creatures. Add 1 ghost quarter and the deck becomes very destructive. Giddeons are nice but won't pose enough threat without a way to keep opposing threats at bay.

    @ Bruiser

    How does humility interact with Gideon activations?
    Layers are applied in timestamp order. This means everything is a 1/1 except gideon and heart of kiran. They are regular size. Also works with manlands.

  6. #6

    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    I don't really understand the need to run both Wastelands and Armageddon. Don't those overlap quite a bit? If you can safely bash in with Mr Beefslab, protected by Chalice, then either the opp has Karakas out or not. I guess Wasteland leads to some more fine-tuned decision making and mana denial...it also opens the opportunity for Warping Wail or other <> cards.

    Have a feeling that Humility, Wrath, Armageddon fit -somehow- but just not sure what is best. If you can protect yourself from being attacked, then Gideons will be just fine in combat - that was the reasoning I had with running Ghostly Prison. Additional benefit of being the magical 3 cmc that stompy decks love. Armaggedon seemed to play nicely with both Ghostly Prison and Trinisphere (and of course our Flagstones).

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    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Quote Originally Posted by square_two View Post
    I don't really understand the need to run both Wastelands and Armageddon. Don't those overlap quite a bit? If you can safely bash in with Mr Beefslab, protected by Chalice, then either the opp has Karakas out or not. I guess Wasteland leads to some more fine-tuned decision making and mana denial...it also opens the opportunity for Warping Wail or other <> cards.

    Have a feeling that Humility, Wrath, Armageddon fit -somehow- but just not sure what is best. If you can protect yourself from being attacked, then Gideons will be just fine in combat - that was the reasoning I had with running Ghostly Prison. Additional benefit of being the magical 3 cmc that stompy decks love. Armaggedon seemed to play nicely with both Ghostly Prison and Trinisphere (and of course our Flagstones).
    The deck could just be armageddon stax without the stax and add the giddeons.
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  8. #8

    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    The deck could just be armageddon stax without the stax and add the giddeons.
    My gut reaction is to move the 3-spheres to the sideboard and replace the Mox Diamond + lands with Chrome Mox + white cards. You can have multiple Gideons out, but you can only have 1 of each. Just imagine how bad it is to draw a bunch of lands and 3 copies of the same Gideon...

    4x Stoneforge and BSkull and maybe Jitte?

    4 Heart of Kiran is way too many,

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    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    The deck can perfectly run humility. Gives you maindeck outs against unfair matchups (grisel/emrakul) while being able to beat with full strengthgideons and hearts. Perhaps 1 untaidake over a city of traitors?
    I like the Humility + Tabernacle plan. Could throw in some manlands for good measure, too.
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    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Chrome mox is a good idea - but only if we keep our white count at least above 24 (isn't that how that works? it's all good for us to get rid of gideon's but we need to have enough white cards in general for us to consistently be able to play it) - so far its 17 - we'll need to cut around 7 artifacts for us to even reach the minimum. Maybe a mox split?

    Regarding humility - I like it a lot especially against S&T. Not really sure how we would search for Tabernacle though - just run it as a one of?

    And for 1 Untaidake - we don't really have to replace a City, we can run it instead of a plains. Let's say we are aiming for 2 white mana sources by turn 2 - we would need around 15 white mana sources in the deck. Including the moxen - we only need 11 white producing lands. We currently have 13. We can afford to take out at least 2. This does mean that adding manlands would be trickier.

  11. #11
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    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Question is if we even need Tabernacle to control creatures with Humility. The problem with Ghostly Prison is that they can still attack Gideon without paying mana.

    An interesting way to clear the board are Caltrops/Lightmine Field - they can't attack you with Humility in play and once Gideon Jura hits the field, he can provoke the entire board into suicide. But maybe that interaction is too clunky.

    Batterskull is definitely nice with Humility, though.

    Untaidake seems to narrow to be any good.

    Also, why not include a few Elspeths? Another token producer for Humility and the jump ability is great on your tokens, Gideons (and Batterskull if you run it).

    Edit: Given the perfect casting cost for a Stompy manabase, Call the Gatewatch might not be that bad since Gideon of the Trials is the first thing you want to jam down for the emblem. Consistency is a good thing.
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    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    if you run armageddon you should run crucible.

    If you run armageddon in a prison deck you should also run tabernacle. Armageddon, then drop tabernacle is a board wipe. If you have gideon out you'll probably win. Id run 2 tabernacle but not 3.
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    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    I guess my hesitation to make this an armogedon stax deck plus Gideon is that armogedon stax was never that good to begin with and I'm not sure Gideon makes it that much better. Outside the chalice/mana/gideons we have about maybe 15 cards to play with... maybe idk we can fool around with Thalia's, Sfm, eldrazi or maybe even other colors? The only reason I'm bringing this up is ... idk I've been thinking today and I'm not sure Gideon is good enough to rescue armogedon stax from obscurity but I like the Gideon concept enough to try to make it work. There's tension in that because it slots so well into the armogedon stax shell \_(ツ)_/

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    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    I guess my hesitation to make this an armogedon stax deck plus Gideon is that armogedon stax was never that good to begin with and I'm not sure Gideon makes it that much better. Outside the chalice/mana/gideons we have about maybe 15 cards to play with... maybe idk we can fool around with Thalia's, Sfm, eldrazi or maybe even other colors? The only reason I'm bringing this up is ... idk I've been thinking today and I'm not sure Gideon is good enough to rescue armogedon stax from obscurity but I like the Gideon concept enough to try to make it work. There's tension in that because it slots so well into the armogedon stax shell \_(ツ)_/
    Stax common problem was consistency and pressure. It did nothing until it just won the game. Gideons dont provide consistency but provide pressure. Consistency is something whitevwill never get.

    If u have the cards u should test the deck and let us know how it plays. That first version posted seems terrible tho. Not enough lock pieces.

    If you can find a balance between pressure and lock pieces i think itll work. 12 threats is a GOOD number. Think about rug , usually only run 12 creatures and do just fine.
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  15. #15

    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Going RW solves a few things. Blood Moon fixes the lands matchup and Fiery Confluence fixes the DNT matchup. Nahiri provides draw and outs against enchantments and artifacts. Humility provides outs agianst most creature based decks but also sneak attack and reanimator strategies if you can get it out fast enough. Squadron Hawk is to stop the bleeding and to pitch to C.Mox. If you can get a Squadron Hawk out before Humility, you can flood the board with disposable creatures and trade very favorably.

    4 Humility
    4 Blood Moon
    4 Gideon of the Trials
    3 Gideon Jura
    3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
    2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
    3 Ensnaring Bridge
    2 Heart of Kiran
    4 Fiery Confluence
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Squadron Hawk
    4 Chalice of the Void

    Black could also provide an interesting splash. If I would play black, I would not play chalice of the void. Monastery Mentor was restricted in vintage, and we're playing white so we want to have a lot of cheap spells, particularly also draw spells. Perhaps some of these cards could play a role:
    4 Gitaxian Probe <-
    4 Cabal Therapy <-
    3 Monastery Mentor <-
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Sorcerous Spyglass
    2 Porphyry Nodes
    3 Inquisition of Kozilek
    3 Painful Truths / Night's Whisper

    Gitaxian Probe tells you if you have to play around Daze and helps Therapy + Mentor
    Therapy helps you address permission spells and disrupt combo
    Mentor feeds off of both of those cards, as well as the rest of your deck
    Last edited by bruizar; 09-01-2017 at 05:42 AM.

  16. #16

    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    I like the Humility + Tabernacle plan. Could throw in some manlands for good measure, too.
    Just be sure that Tabernacle enters the battlefield -after- Humility

    I think Heart of Kiran might be a trap. Does nothing without a walker on board even if it does hit hard if you can land a followup Gideon. It also lowers the white count for Chrome Mox which might be an issue - or should I just run Mox Diamond? I like the idea of swarming the board with tokens - more Elspeths to help out. That provides an additional layer of protection and ups the number of "doing things" post-geddon. Feels like this is an ok "middle" to where you can board in more combo or creature hate depending on what you are facing. If you can prevent opp's creatures from attacking, not really sure the reason to keep on with Humility - the Gideons already bash through just fine no matter what the opp has.

    26
    2 Karakas
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Flagstones of Trokair
    8 Plains

    17
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Trinisphere
    4 Ghostly Prison
    4 Armageddon
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass // O-Ring // Damping Matrix?

    17
    4 Gideon of the Trials
    4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
    3 Gideon Jura
    3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
    2 Elspeth Tirel
    1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

    It does feel like few lock pieces, but if you include Gideon of the Trials then it starts to look more hopeful :/

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    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    @bruizar - if we're going to give up Chalice for 1cmc cards, and the decks biggest problem would be consistency. . . blue?

    28 lands/mana
    4 STP
    4 FOW
    10 Blue/Cantrips
    10 Gideons
    4 Win cons that happen to be blue?

    Idk - probably worse than nu-miracles?

  18. #18

    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    I think the strength of the deck is that it can resist degenerate combo kills well with access to Gideon of the Trials, Humility and Rest in Peace. That means you can focus on breaking parity on the fair matchups and tempo match-ups. Brainstorms and ponders do a great job at breaking that parity. Gitaxian Probe also helps a lot against tempo, because it tell you whether or not you're going to run into a daze or not. That information is crucial as any stompy or mud player that has had his 4CC spells countered by a daze will tell you.

  19. #19

    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    I think everyone is missing Kytheon as well for maximum Gideons.
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  20. #20
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    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    I think the strength of the deck is that it can resist degenerate combo kills well with access to Gideon of the Trials, Humility and Rest in Peace. That means you can focus on breaking parity on the fair matchups and tempo match-ups. Brainstorms and ponders do a great job at breaking that parity. Gitaxian Probe also helps a lot against tempo, because it tell you whether or not you're going to run into a daze or not. That information is crucial as any stompy or mud player that has had his 4CC spells countered by a daze will tell you.
    I don't know if this is an endoresement for the no chalice blue splash suggestion, but if it is - I don't know where we can find the room for Humility/RIP while also keeping up the blue count for FOW.

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