With Oath of Gideon in play, you get the emblem 2 turns after you cast him. Or with proliferate synergies it could be as early as the next turn. That's why I asked about proliferating. If there are viable engines, it makes the Ajani ultimate feasible.
Waiting a turn or 2 is not unreasonable in a Chalice+Humility+Armageddon deck. Geddon Stax regularly wins on turn 20.
I think you'd want the Proliferate land. Karn's Citadel or something. But that Ajani honestly looks win-more to me.
Karn's Bastion. Yeah you're right, this land looks nice.
Might be true, but the actual Wincon could also be: "Get all the Emblem, wait for the Opponent to deck..."
I think the reason we were excited about Oops, all Gideon was the idea that Gideons could function as beatsticks and win cons as well as preventing you from losing - the idea was for them to double task. If they are just win-cons then realistically this deck will just turn into a white stax deck with 4-8 PW (with the assumption that White PW are the best possible win cons in that deck). Not saying that isn't the logical conclusion, but just want to be open about it.
In order for them to be beatsticks and prevent you from losing, the deck really needs multiple Humility.
A 3-mana 4/4 that gets blocked by TNN/Angler or dies to Delver is not much of a threat in this format. Gideon beatdown works when every other creature is a vanilla 1/1. Maybe that looks too much like Stax for you, but it's probably the best shot Gideon beatdown has.
I'm not disagreeing with you - all I'm saying is I've come to the conclusion that this deck is untenable as a separate deck idea (if we are going the route of Stax). Humility doesn't run well with Gideon Blackblade, if you are not running Giddeon Blackblade it seems you are not abusing the Gideon Emblem since you are forced to run more expensive Giddeons. If you are running more expensive Giddeons you might as well run other more expensive Planeswalkers (Like Karn, for instance). If you are no longer running cards to abuse the Gideon Emblem then you are simply looking for the best win-cons for a Humility/White-Stax deck. I'm finding it hard to believe running more than 4 of a non-Karn walker is the best win-con for any Stax type deck.
The above is why I was considering non-stompy builds with the 8 3 CMC Giddeon's since the Stompy build looks to me like a dead end as it seems to default to any other white Stax/Eskimo list. Any theory in regards to any Gideon or PW over the fourth will, IMO lead one to cut it for more traditional and proven options.
Oooooor.... We could stick to the 8 CMC3 Gideon we have, lower the overall mana cost of the deck and play more 1-for-1 removall.
After all, StP is still a card and Gideon's triomph was just printed.
I'm in agreement with Cire. The deck's central idea is abusing the Gideon of the Trials emblem. The moment you deviate from that idea and start cutting Gideons in favor of "optimal" cards like Humility, there is no reason to not push further down that route and just turn the deck into Stax. And at that point, is there any reason for this thread to exist?
So for the sake of giving this deck its own identity, I think that the deckbuilding should revolve around making the most optimal use of the emblem, and not around making the most optimal use of white prison cards.
Yes, so don't run Blackblade. Other reasons to not run Blackblade: it's a bad card with weak abilities.
Without Blackblade you can still play 10-11 Gideons. My list has the same number of Gideons as the Blackblade list. The other Gideons are also easier to keep alive. Jura and Ally protect themselves, while Blackblade does not. Blackblade is the easiest to kill, so it does not add much value for the Emblem beyond fodder.
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar comes down as early as turn 2-3, the same time as Gideon Blackblade. 2WW is no harder than 1WW for a Stompy manabase. If you're comparing it to Blackblade in a non-Stompy deck (e.g. Noble Hierarch), when you consider relative speed (how fast you can deploy things relative to the opponent), 2WW in a 3sphere/Chalice deck could be even faster than 1WW in a non-Chalice deck because your turn 1 play slowed the opponent down.
No, because other walkers don't work with the Emblem. The reason to run Gideons is the emblem, not the mana cost. If the only reason was the mana cost, you could have Liliana of the Veil, Liliana, the Last Hope, or Ashiok, Dream Render instead.
Why is running more than 4 of a non-Liliana non-Jace walker the best win-con for a non-Stax deck?I'm finding it hard to believe running more than 4 of a non-Karn walker is the best win-con for any Stax type deck.
Either you think the Emblem is worth supporting or you don't. Blackblade doesn't change that equation. If you're just looking for the best walker to ramp to at a given CMC, a single Gideon is never it (at 3 cmc or 4). But Gideon tribal might be.
But the non-stompy build is a dead end as it defaults to losing the game, due to lack of interaction. All they can do is deploy Gideons quickly and watch them die. Without Chalice or Humility, the opponent has too many tools to attack Gideon back. Turn 2 3-mana vanilla 4/4 beatdown isn't a thing in Legacy. See: Leatherback Baloth.The above is why I was considering non-stompy builds with the 8 3 CMC Giddeon's since the Stompy build looks to me like a dead end as it seems to default to any other white Stax/Eskimo list.
I agree the point is to abuse the emblem, but these are not mutually exclusive. You can build around the Emblem while also running Humility.
Gideon of the Trials does not read "cannot create an Emblem unless Gideon Blackblade is in your list". The only absolutes are that the deck needs Gideon of the Trials and other Gideons. Don't cut Blackblade for Humility; cut Blackblade for other Gideons and then also run Humility.
The reason I'm pushing Humility is not to be a Stax clone, but because the other Gideons also suck without Humility. If opponent has normal creatures undisrupted, he can just attack Gideon back (e.g. Delver, Thalia, TNN, Batterskull, Clique, Griselbrand), block Gideon with bigger things, or remove him (e.g. Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares). Vanilla 4/4 beatdown isn't enough pressure to ignore that. If opponent has 1/1s or can't cast spells, Gideon is much more likely to get there. Without the Stax shell, what's the plan to protect Gideons? You can play without Humility, but there needs to be some kind of plan.
Fair enough.
Onto a different subject: since the emblem requires keeping your Gideons alive, I was trying to find ways of protecting them. Shalai, Voice of Plenty was the first option that came to mind, but that doesn't work with Humility. Privileged Position is another option but the mana cost is a pain.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-Turbo-Legends
To be honest, Shalai immediately reminds me of this other brew. Some ideas could be salvaged from it. Maybe there is merit in merging the two decks? Cire was experimenting with a green splash, after all...
Interesting GW list.
If you're talking about backing up Gideons with Chalice, resistors and Wasteland recursion, you already had my vote.
I'm currently exploring a variety of probably insane Rock inspired lists and Plug inspired lists. In both versions, the concept is that 8+ Gideons may, in some circumstances, be better than a full GSZ suit. The concept essentially claims that Gideons are win-con and anti-lose cards in one and that such a suit may be better than a variety of answers. The lists are only theory at the moment with no testing results, but the main issue with them so far is color fixing. Both the Rock and Plug run Abrupt Decay, which required GB. The idea is that we should be able to produce W turn 1, BG turn 2 and 1WW turn 3. This is rough. Moreover, Rock and Plug both go in hard for Wasteland recurrence and KOTR toolbox which complicates the matter. Currently testing around the following (slashes indicate the card choices between a Rock and Plug inspiration - they do not add up to 60 cause everything is still in flux). In many cases, the idea behind these lists is that Gideon Emblem Abuse > Liliana control. Not sure how effective that really is, but testing it.
2-4 Mox Diamond
2-4 Chrome Mox / 4 Nobel Hierarch
4 GSZ
0-1 Ramunap Excavator
0-1 Knight of Autumn
1-3 Knight of the Reliquary
2-4 GSZ Targets
4 Chalice of the Void / 4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Trinisphere / 4 Thoughtseize
2-4 Abrupt Decay
2-4 Sylvan Library / 2-4 Dark Confidant
8-10 Gideons
14-16 Other Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Toolbox Lands
1 Dryad Arbor
So, with the new «*Karn-build*» trend, what do you guys think we should do?
Since the guy shuts-off our mana-rocks and isn't soft to Chalice and Trini (and the fact that Humility isn't great either), maybe the Stax route isn't playable anymore.
Should we play something more land-destruction oriented? Or just embrace the sorcerie speed Control life with an O-ring focus?
Hell, should we maindeck Disenchant???
The Rock Build is actually decent against Karn itself (but weak against Decks that run Karn due to Chalice. The build would currently run around 12 1 CMC cards, I was thinking of reducing that somewhat to better deal with Chalice, just don't know what that would be. Replacing Hierarch with 2 CMC mana rocks, taking out some STP/Thoughtseizes for 2 CMC equivalents and/or enchant/artifact destruction.)
you play white, you play chalice, abandon Trini and go for 4 Mentors + Baubles
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