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Thread: Oops, All Gideons!

  1. #61
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    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Quote Originally Posted by aedemiel View Post
    Maybe we just replace Gideon Darkblade with new Karn?
    I'm at the point where I'm just trying to jam as many walkers into stompy builds as I can, but I feel all those experiments deserve their own threads - the point of this thread is to abuse Gideon in the sense of the "Can't lose" emblem and another 3 mana Gideon is too good in that regard to cut. If we're cutting that Giddeon, there is no reason not to cut the others, and then when you cut the others there is no reason not to turn this into another type of Stompy deck or just turn this into Quinn with a Giddeon or two and the New Karn, and I'm sure that's the direction Quinn is moving into - so this seems like if we want this to be a seperate deck we need to define it as a deck that runs X+ Giddeons, if not you're playing Quinn with some Giddeons.

  2. #62

    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    I'm at the point where I'm just trying to jam as many walkers into stompy builds as I can, but I feel all those experiments deserve their own threads - the point of this thread is to abuse Gideon in the sense of the "Can't lose" emblem and another 3 mana Gideon is too good in that regard to cut. If we're cutting that Giddeon, there is no reason not to cut the others, and then when you cut the others there is no reason not to turn this into another type of Stompy deck or just turn this into Quinn with a Giddeon or two and the New Karn, and I'm sure that's the direction Quinn is moving into - so this seems like if we want this to be a seperate deck we need to define it as a deck that runs X+ Giddeons, if not you're playing Quinn with some Giddeons.
    I actually agree with everything you just said.

    If we stick to the topic of this thread then, Humility just isn't playable. Should we replace it with some taxing effect, like Ghostly Prison, Aven Mindcensor or Leonin Arbiter?

    Also, I think Gedion BlackBlade shouldn't be a 4-of. The fact that it is a creature makes it much weaker than any other Gid'.

  3. #63
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    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Earlier I was wondering about Sakashima as a potential other Giddeon, but now we have the below as a potential new Gideon if we splash blue (might even be easier to cast than Gideon, Ally of Zendikar since it doesn't need double colors:



    Edit - also will copying a Gideon while its a creature give this a +1/+1 counter and a Loyalty Counter?

  4. #64

    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    Earlier I was wondering about Sakashima as a potential other Giddeon, but now we have the below as a potential new Gideon if we splash blue (might even be easier to cast than Gideon, Ally of Zendikar since it doesn't need double colors:



    Edit - also will copying a Gideon while its a creature give this a +1/+1 counter and a Loyalty Counter?
    I don't think splashing blue for a 4 CMC clone-effect is that great. Also splasing blue might mean playing Brainstorm, Ponder, FOW... And then at this point we are just a weak Miracles.

  5. #65
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    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Quote Originally Posted by aedemiel View Post
    I don't think splashing blue for a 4 CMC clone-effect is that great. Also splasing blue might mean playing Brainstorm, Ponder, FOW... And then at this point we are just a weak Miracles.
    For the blue splash - I think you're right in the sense that if we go that route we MUST go the chalice route to stay stompy instead of Bad Miracles. It's a fine line to tread - that said the idea behind this is that if we can't go Humility this is another beater - i.e. instead of being able to use humility we just lay down Giddeon after Gideon and hope to beat face with 4/4's and 5/5's . . .

  6. #66

    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    New Gideon: https://scryfall.com/card/war/265/gideon-the-oathsworn
    It's terrible for what we're trying to accomplish.

  7. #67
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    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Something to consider (and by something - I mean something to consider for each deck in the entire format)

    Explosion zone
    Land
    Explosion zone enters the battlefield with 1 counter
    T: add colourless mana
    XX, tap: put X counter over explosion zone
    3, T: sacrifice explosion zone: destroy all nonland permanents with converted cost equal to the number of counters on explosion zone

    With Sol Lands it can put a a counter on itself a turn, so:

    Turn 1 Ancient Tomb,
    Turn 2 <this>, tap to add 1 counter
    Turn 3 Wasteland/whatever, activate - get rid of 2 CMC permenants.

    This could help with problematic creatures. It's not replacing humility but in the Chalice version, especially with Crucible it could be very useful.

    Potential rough list with Zone.

    8 White Producing Lands
    8 Sol Land
    3 Waste Lands
    3 Explosion Zone
    3 Chrome Mox
    3 Mox Diamond

    10 Gideons
    4 Karn

    4 Chalice
    4 Trinisphere
    4 Crucible of Worlds

    6 "Open"

    Lots open in this list cause of the humility dis-synergy and unsureness of running Armageddon if you're using stuff like zone.

  8. #68

    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Yep, I saw this land earlier.
    I think it will be great in Lands.deck but I don't know about Stompy deck (assuming we're going for a Stompy route).
    4 Crucible is probably too much even in this shell. Also, Flagstone of Trokair is a must with Armaggeddon.

  9. #69
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    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Quote Originally Posted by aedemiel View Post
    New Gideon: https://scryfall.com/card/war/265/gideon-the-oathsworn
    It's terrible for what we're trying to accomplish.
    Lol, what's a "non-Gideon creature"? I only have Gideon creatures and noncreature Gideons.

    Spark Double should enter with both an extra +1/+1 counter and an extra loyalty counter. Good synergy if you go for the blue splash. Tundra stompy.

    I agree with Cire said about maximizing Gideons. Humility is so good, but to break Gideon of the Trials you really need as many cheap Gideons as possible. We need a different way to stop creatures. Maybe some combination of Ghostly Prison, Maze of Ith/Kor Haven, and mana denial (Crucible + Wasteland)? Hide behind Ensnaring Bridge until you hit critical mass?

    Unfortunately, attacking with Gideon is no longer a win condition when the opponent doesn't just have vanilla 1/1s. Even if they can't attack, they can block for days. Do we need a way to give Gideon evasion? An alternate win condition (Rest in Peace+Helm of Obedience)?

  10. #70

    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I agree with Cire said about maximizing Gideons. Humility is so good, but to break Gideon of the Trials you really need as many cheap Gideons as possible. We need a different way to stop creatures. Maybe some combination of Ghostly Prison, Maze of Ith/Kor Haven, and mana denial (Crucible + Wasteland)? Hide behind Ensnaring Bridge until you hit critical mass?
    Absolutely. I think we can indeed replace Humility with a mix of Ghostly Prison/Wrath or God. Kor Haven seems playable as well. I don't know about the Crucible + Wasteland start. Too much colorless maybe?

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Unfortunately, attacking with Gideon is no longer a win condition when the opponent doesn't just have vanilla 1/1s. Even if they can't attack, they can block for days. Do we need a way to give Gideon evasion? An alternate win condition (Rest in Peace+Helm of Obedience)?
    RiP+Helm is already Sylvan Quinn, so we now it's playable.
    I guess we could try Serra the Benevolent...

  11. #71
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    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    I've been actually thinking about the chaliceless bild and seeing that the cheapest giddeons are 1WW thinking about getting rid of Sol lands from my initial Chaliceless build (especially since we are not trying to power out Humility). With that in mind there is no point in running New Karn, and instead the aim is to just play white control with Giddeons. The brainstormed list was:

    20 Lands

    2 Mox Diamond
    4 Noble Hierarch

    4 Sylvan library
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    2 Giddeon's Triumph
    1 Ghostly Prison
    1 Oblivion Ring
    1 Tutor Spots

    4 rest in peace
    4 helm of obedience

    4 Gideon of the Trials
    3 Giddeon Blackblade
    2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

    It's really really rough, but that's the karnless/sol landless/chalicless route that we could take. Next steps is probably to take out the Helm combo as without the sol lands it gets expensive. Instead the extra space could be for more tutors and Giddeons. The extra space could also be more lands and we can try to run a snow base for scrying sheets.

  12. #72
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    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    20 Lands

    2 Mox Diamond
    4 Noble Hierarch

    4 Sylvan library
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    2 Gideon's Triumph
    1 Ghostly Prison
    1 Oblivion Ring
    1 Tutor Spots

    4 rest in peace
    4 helm of obedience

    4 Gideon of the Trials
    3 Gideon Blackblade
    2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

    It's really really rough, but that's the karnless/sol landless/chalicless route that we could take. Next steps is probably to take out the Helm combo as without the sol lands it gets expensive. Instead the extra space could be for more tutors and Giddeons. The extra space could also be more lands and we can try to run a snow base for scrying sheets.

    Could work.

    Chrome Mox over Mox Diamond. Diamond + 20 lands + 0 crucible + 0 loam + 0 land tax seems bad.

    For RiPHelm decks you should only need 3 Rest in Peace (4th SB) and 2 Helm of Obedience. Tutors do the rest of the work. Helm is a dead draw early game, even midgame. You only ever want it when you have RiP and 4-5 mana and the coast is clear. The rest of the time Plains is a better card. RiP is very strong in some matches but only a combo piece in others, and it's redundant in multiples. 4 copies in the 75 seems good, but 4 main may be too many.

    Do we have enough interaction with the opponent? Without Chalice and Humility you lose a lot of interaction. Mana, draw, tutors, combo pieces, Gideons.. most of that is non-interactive. There's just spot removal and 1 Ghostly Prison. 1 card to interact with noncreature permanents, 0 cards to interact with spells. You can free up more slots for interaction by making a few cuts:
    -2 Helm of Obedience
    -1 Rest in Peace
    -1 Sylvan Library
    -2 Gideon's Triumph

    If you splash blue instead of green, Rest in Peace has really good synergy with Web of Inertia (Oops, you lose your combat phase).

    Edit: Neither Ghostly Prison nor Web of Inertia stop creatures from attacking Planeswalkers, which is really awkward.

  13. #73

    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    I've been actually thinking about the chaliceless bild and seeing that the cheapest giddeons are 1WW thinking about getting rid of Sol lands from my initial Chaliceless build (especially since we are not trying to power out Humility). With that in mind there is no point in running New Karn, and instead the aim is to just play white control with Giddeons. The brainstormed list was:

    20 Lands

    2 Mox Diamond
    4 Noble Hierarch

    4 Sylvan library
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    2 Giddeon's Triumph
    1 Ghostly Prison
    1 Oblivion Ring
    1 Tutor Spots

    4 rest in peace
    4 helm of obedience

    4 Gideon of the Trials
    3 Giddeon Blackblade
    2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

    It's really really rough, but that's the karnless/sol landless/chalicless route that we could take. Next steps is probably to take out the Helm combo as without the sol lands it gets expensive. Instead the extra space could be for more tutors and Giddeons. The extra space could also be more lands and we can try to run a snow base for scrying sheets.
    Chrome mox over diamond I think, plus you likely want 4. I'd cut some helms for karns too. Try it!
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  14. #74
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    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Yeah whenever I plug up one hole in the deck other problems come up.

    The issues are:

    1) The best non-hate bear white interaction with the opponent is Humility
    2) Humility plays poorly with Giddeon
    3) Without Humility there is no real reason to play Sol Lands
    4) Without Sol Land there is no real reason to play a Stompy build (Chalice/Trinisphere)
    5) Without Stompy Build there is not enough interaction with opponent.

    So that's where we are now. I know we initially when green for potential card quality - but would we maybe include black instead and add in discard and thus such interaction?

  15. #75

    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Sooo... Deadguy Ale with Gideons?

  16. #76
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    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Quote Originally Posted by aedemiel View Post
    Sooo... Deadguy Ale with Gideons?
    I mean, maybe? Really the only identity this deck has is that it would run 10+ Giddeons (plus with the assumption of 8 Accel of some type and at least 20 lands). I think in the last 2-3 pages we essentially discussed why Stompy Shell wouldn't work for that identity and are now trying to figure out the other 22 something cards (even less since we've decided not to play chalice (since without humility our prime motivation to run sol lands is gone) we're playing STP, so really 18 cards).

    Deadguy Gideon, even despite the hilariously appropriate name now, might make sense - turn 1, land discard, turn 2, draw engine or creature kill, turn 3 start dropping gideons onwards.

  17. #77
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    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    What if we play the Stax shell and ignore the bad Gideon?

    I say bad because:
    • +1 is useless unless you have a 2nd Gideon out (with a different name) AND are attacking instead of using another ability (win-more)
    • it doesn't protect itself
    • it's more vulnerable to creature removal (e.g. Terminus)
    • he makes Humility bad
    • as a 4/4 without Humility he gets chumped for days (Angler, TNN, YP making tokens)


    Really the only thing going for it is a 3cc "Gideon" permanent. But Stax isn't trying to race anyway. This is control, not tempo. Just play more ramp or better control and then use the better Gideons. Instead of cutting Humility for Blackblade, cut Blackblade and keep Humility.



    //Mana: 26
    3 Talisman of Progress
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    2 Karakas
    8 Plains

    //Gideons: 11
    4 Gideon of the Trials
    4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
    3 Gideon Jura

    //Permanents: 19
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Trinisphere
    3 Tangle Wire
    2 Banishing Light
    2 Oath of Gideon
    4 Humility

    //Spells: 4
    2 Warping Wail
    2 Gideon's Triumph

    //Sideboard: 15
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    3 Defense Grid
    3 Rest in Peace
    1 Helm of Obedience
    2 Ratchet Bomb
    2 Timely Reinforcements


    That's a version without mana denial, just focused on board control.

    Talisman adds another white source you can cast off a turn 1 sol land, which should help with turn 2 WW.

    Oath of Gideon makes 2 1/1 tokens, is easy to cast off a sol land manabase, and makes Gideons better. It might just be bad but I think it's worth trying.

    Warping Wail, Gideon's Triumph and Banishing Light give some low cc interaction to balance out the curve. Warping Wail is easy to cast with 8 Sol Lands and 3 Talismans.

    Karakas not only handles enemy threats but also protects attacking Gideons from spot removal (he's Legendary).

    Tangle Wire slows down the game to let the more expensive control pieces come online, especially important in the absence of mana denial tools.

    Or you can play a build with mana denial. Gideon + resistor + pressure on manabase is probably GG. But the deck might have a harder time hitting double white.


    //Mana: 27
    4 Mox Diamond
    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 City of Traitors
    4 Wasteland
    3 Flagstones of Trokair
    6 Plains
    2 Karakas
    1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

    //Gideons: 10
    4 Gideon of the Trials
    4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
    2 Gideon Jura

    //Permanents: 19
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Trinisphere
    4 Crucible of Worlds
    3 Banishing Light
    4 Humility

    //Spells: 5
    2 Gideon's Triumph
    3 Armageddon


    Crucible is an all-star here with Wasteland, Mox Diamond, City and Geddon!

    Armageddon + Flagstones/Crucible + Wastelock + resistors should put a lot of pressure on the opponent's manabase while Humility + Tabernacle keep creatures under control. Then Gideons clean up the rest.
    Last edited by FTW; 04-24-2019 at 09:24 PM.

  18. #78

    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Oddly enough, in this king of shell, Ajani Steadfast fits the deck nicely:
    — 3W CMC makes it easily playable with sol Lands.
    — The +1 gives Lifelink or First strike (it's no evasion, but Lifelink is a nice touch).
    — The -2 can put BOTH a +1/+1 and a loyalty if you animated your Gideons first.
    — The ultimate makes the "You-can't-lose-the-game" emblem almost a lock.

    Also, I still believe Serra the Benevolent is playable.

  19. #79
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    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    TBH that Ajani has better synergy than Gideon Blackblade. That emblem looks strong.

    Are there any playable white proliferate effects in the new set? Anything to help get that Emblem out. Contagion Clasp even?

  20. #80

    Re: Oops, All Gideons!

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Are there any playable white proliferate effects in the new set? Anything to help get that Emblem out.
    Wanderer's Strike is the only thing noteworthy and is barelly playable.

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