Hey guys, I wanna start playing blue in Legacy also (only build I got is Burn) and I was wondering if this build might work as a budget build:
Creatures:
2 Cryptic Serpent
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 True-Name Nemesis
Card utility:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
Counter:
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
Removal:
2 Dismember
2 Vapor Snag
Lands:
8 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
This is a Delver Tempo deck so I run 4 Stifle and 4 Wasteland for mana destruction. Then I have the standard counterspells and as removal a Vapor Snag and Dismember split which I have to test how good it is. As creatures I run the main ones Delver and Nemesis while splitting Snapcaster Mage and Cryptic Serpent. Snapcaster Mage is for this build self explaining with all the instant and sorcerys. The good thing about Cryptic Serpent is it does not exile the instant and sorcery cards in your graveyard it only needs them to be in there to be casted so with 4 of it in my GY I can allready cast it for 3. I have to be careful to not exile one of my instant cards with a Snapcaster Mage and having to 2 Cryptic Serpent on my hand but since there are only 2 of each in the deck this shouldn't be a big deal especially with 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder. 20 mana with 4 Wasteland should be enough to cast Nemesis with cc3 consistently. The good thing about this build is the non existing fear of the opponents wastelands so I might do something better than all the other Ux Delver builds. I think this build is a little bit slower than the rest of the Ux Tempo builds (no Lightning Bolts, higher mana costs). But for this it could run a little bit more consistent because of Mono U??
Looks decent for budget mono blue. First thing that comes to mind is Back to Basics. This will make your bounce spells considerably more effective and it not only buys you tempo but can nearly destroy a number of decks on it's own in the same way Blood Moon does for mono red decks. Another one that comes to mind is Thing in the Ice in your Cryptic Serpent slot which is much more than just a cheap big dude considering his sweep ability.
Since you are already running Stifle you might want to go another route and consider Phyrexian Dreadnought along side Trickbind and Trinket Mage (for grabbing PD). Keep in mind that Phyrexian Dreadnought also has some nutty synergy with Eldrazi Mimic but I'm not sure there is a place for him in mono blue.
Another option is mono-blue Standstill card advantage featuring man-lands such as Mishra's Factory which puts pressure on your opponent to trigger it.
Winter Orb and/or Back to Basics combined with bounce and/or Propaganda, Rhystic Study, Pendrell Mists and/or Monastery Siege do some crazy stuff together especially if you have mana rocks to back up Winter Orb.
Anyway, those are off the top of my head. Hope that helps a bit.
"WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca
Going the standstill route opens many perspectives.
You could add man lands indeed (mutavault or mishra's factory) and perhaps Ninja of the deep hours which has huge synergy with it and other cards which benefits of being bounced (snapcaster mage for example).
- Coming from my Vintage Fish experience, playing standstill in a tempo deck will worsen your matchup against every fair deck, read the vast majority of the format.
- I have very small understanding and experience with tempo decks in legacy, but 12 counters and 4 bounce/removal looks like too much stack control and not enough permanent disruption. Vapor Snag is definitely your best option here (bounce+damage=tempo+tempo), i'd run 4.
-Manacurve on your beaters looks a bit off, maybe too many cc3's?
I've tried sometimes mono-U delver, its actually pretty nice, I really think Thing in the Ice has a sweet spot on the deck, it might be counter intuitive to go with delver, but it is actually pretty good, for that I would surely bring the SCM to 4-of, this makes the deck a little more midrangish like UWR delver, but I think it works better this way.
Also, you are running 2 lands more than usual delver lists, that I think might be because of True-Nemesis, I would cut 2-3 TNN and with that cut 2 Islands having 6 Islands and 8 fetches.
Believe me TiTI is so good when I tested, it can be an instant speed wipe that leaves you an 7/8 beater, I find it harder for a monoU deck have a better creature to replace it, TNN is a beating, but he is way too mana intensive to go 4-of in my opinion, even more for a deck that has a slightly higher number of counters than usual delvers so you need more mana open and increasing too much the land count is not what I would prefer doing.
I would work with this deck in the idea that it can have the usual delver draw, early pressure and disruption, but it can have a slightly better late game than most other delver decks, even though you are giving up some of the best spot removals for having no splashes.
Anyway those are just my opinion, they might not be correct, but there you have it :)
Stifle by itself [i.e. solely to target opponent's triggers/activations] will always be pretty suspect and will cost you games. If Stifle -> Dreadnought, if no Dreadnought -> no Stifle; whatever your SB backup plan is for Stifle coming out, it isn't maindeck Probe meeting SB Therapy. Your mana curve for threats is 4-0-6[+2] at cmc 1,2,3[+], unless you're actually casting SCM for no value. This is problematic in a "tempo" deck, particularly one trying this hard to get to 3 mana while Dazing and Wastelanding. Classic tempo is 8-4-2 at cmc 1,2,x (x being TNN, Gurmag, Mandrils, Tombstalker, Leo, Cryptic, Reveler). The two best things you could be doing are using Factory as 1-drop #5-8 or casting Aether Vial. Thing in the Ice is ok, but the reason the card works (when cast face-up) is the 6 slots of SCM/Strix and 8 slots Gitaxian Probe/Therapy (some variants use Probe/Pfire/no Strix); face-down casting means you're on Dreadnoughts.
Don't really like the Cryptic Serpent given that you're on mono- as it costs you one of the best tools at your disposal Set Adrift and your list has 4x TNN which should be enough top-end. A move to Standstill (away from TNN) has the most pieces working together and is one of the best ways to obtain more raw card draw, Dreadnought is the best way to add a second color one dual at a time, and Vial means your a bad Merfolk deck (but it will actually give you a reasonable shot of deploying a clock against combo without tapping out and passing the turn). Given that this is supposed to be bugdet, an important question is whether or not you've already thrown your money into TNNs. You can do all this work, but it would be just as easy to run U/R Delver with Steam Vents as you slowly build up to Volcs.
I wouldn’t cut out vapor snag SO quickly though... it can be used to reset snapcasters and cliques if need be
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Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer
Counterspell is too slow for this deck. Even miracles, a control deck plays a maybe 1-of. Leaving uu up instead of pressuring the board position or disrupting their mana is not worth just countering 1 thing.
Might I suggest disrupt for a “ah-HA” moment? Draws you a card too. Otherwise, spell pierce and spell snare are my usual go-tos.
Also, one I’ve tested for another shell is unsubstantiate. Half-unsummon, half-remand.
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Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer
I'm pretty sure Spell Pierce should be at 2-3 before considering the first Counterspell, even in mono-blue. Stack interaction is already at a premium, what the deck lacks is ways of dealing with resolved problems.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer
Blink of an Eye might be solid here as 1-2 of. It can deal with resolved problems, and midgame, it also cantrips as well (like Remand). If the permanent you bounce has a high cc that they will have to pay for again, you gain a huge amount of tempo without any card disadvantage.
Is there any difference to into the roil?
Either way, 4 mana is way too much even for the draw a card effect. We want max 3 lands in play, and the other lands in hand to shuffle away to brainstorm.
I’d rather be looking at options like wipe away for chalices and counterbalance, and probably trickbind for stifles 5-8. Aggressive stifling can work as a time walk quite often. The tempo gained is massive.
I think our goal is to end the game with a flipped delver, 1 island and a wasteland in play, 1 counter in hand and the opponent with an empty board, a massive grip and 0 life. Anything that needs 3+ mana really needs to be an instant game-ender or really pull you from the brink to nearly win (TNN and SCM+brainstorm et al comes to mind).
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Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer
Like FTW suggested, building around Thing in the Ice makes the most sense, especially if you’re expecting to face a mostly fair meta where a 0/4 wall turn two isnt bad.
FTW suggested the below list, which I put together over the weekend and it works very well.
//Creatures: 12
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Thing in the Ice
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True Name Nemesis
//Enchanments: 3
3 Back to Basics
//Spells: 27
4 Force of Will
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Vapor Snag
3 Dismember
1 Spell Snare
//Lands: 18
4 Wasteland
14 Island
//Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Echoing Truth
3 Propaganda
I’m impressed FTW. Thanks for your suggestions.
Might seem like a newbie question, but what’s the basilisk collar doing? Long game? Wouldn’t jitte or sword of red and blue be better for that?
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Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer
If we played a list replacing the mental notes with say more spell pierces, snares and chain of vapors, would that extra turn or 2 to turn em into 5/5s be such a massive downside? My thought would be that we’re still pushing our opponents back while putting our big foot forwards. And a 1 mana-no-effect-on-tempo card doesn’t seem great.
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Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer
Pteromanders are too slow as the first threat. I think 2 of is good. Aside from them, delver and jaces phantasm, are there any other decent 1-drops in our arsenal?
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Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer
So I’m probably the only one trying out a new build, but hear me out:
4 delver
4 jaces phantasm
2 pteromander
1 true name nemesis
4 archive trap
4 thought scour
3 force of will
4 daze
2 spell snare
3 spell pierce
4 Brainstorm
3 vapor snag
1 psionic blast
3 visions from beyond
1 surgical extraction
4 wasteland
7 fetch
6 island
Yep, it’s for realsies. I think the earliest I’ve done is a turn 2 jaces phantasm as 5/5, and it’s pretty freaking sweet. Archive traps + random surgical s has been sweet, but the greatest is having main deck ancestral recalls. Also, being able to thought scour miracles in response to predicts have been fun too.
Also, this folds to chalice for 1 like you wouldn’t believe. I think even angel stompy would give this deck fits.
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Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer
Hi, I'm new to this forum, but I'm also testing mono U delver with pteramanders so I thought I'd sign up!
I'm using 10 creatures (4x delver, 4x terry and 2xTNN), 11 counterspells + 4x stifle, 4x BS and 4x ponder as my base. This leaves my with 4-6 removal ( at the moment 4x vapor snag, 2x dismember) and 3-5 "other" cards which can be utility or more disruption.
All I have found so far is that curious obsession is bad. I'm not sold on accumulated knowledge And thought scour. I'm going to try 2xb2b in te main with 1x Jitte next.
I'm also going to go from 2x dismember to 1x dismember and 1x psionic blast. (You rarely want to play the second dismember if you happen to draw it).
Keen to hear thoughts.
One question: how do we deal with burn? Especially the build without fetches seems like the worst possible match up.
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