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Thread: Mono U Tempo Delver

  1. #21

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Counterspell is too slow for this deck. Even miracles, a control deck plays a maybe 1-of. Leaving uu up instead of pressuring the board position or disrupting their mana is not worth just countering 1 thing.

    Might I suggest disrupt for a ďah-HAĒ moment? Draws you a card too. Otherwise, spell pierce and spell snare are my usual go-tos.

    Also, one Iíve tested for another shell is unsubstantiate. Half-unsummon, half-remand.


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  2. #22
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    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    I'm pretty sure Spell Pierce should be at 2-3 before considering the first Counterspell, even in mono-blue. Stack interaction is already at a premium, what the deck lacks is ways of dealing with resolved problems.
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  3. #23

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I'm pretty sure Spell Pierce should be at 2-3 before considering the first Counterspell, even in mono-blue. Stack interaction is already at a premium, what the deck lacks is ways of dealing with resolved problems.
    Which is why I suggested unsubstantiate. Itís like remand, but can unsummon as well.




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  4. #24

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I'm pretty sure Spell Pierce should be at 2-3 before considering the first Counterspell, even in mono-blue. Stack interaction is already at a premium, what the deck lacks is ways of dealing with resolved problems.
    Blink of an Eye might be solid here as 1-2 of. It can deal with resolved problems, and midgame, it also cantrips as well (like Remand). If the permanent you bounce has a high cc that they will have to pay for again, you gain a huge amount of tempo without any card disadvantage.

  5. #25

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    Blink of an Eye might be solid here as 1-2 of. It can deal with resolved problems, and midgame, it also cantrips as well (like Remand). If the permanent you bounce has a high cc that they will have to pay for again, you gain a huge amount of tempo without any card disadvantage.
    Is there any difference to into the roil?

    Either way, 4 mana is way too much even for the draw a card effect. We want max 3 lands in play, and the other lands in hand to shuffle away to brainstorm.

    Iíd rather be looking at options like wipe away for chalices and counterbalance, and probably trickbind for stifles 5-8. Aggressive stifling can work as a time walk quite often. The tempo gained is massive.

    I think our goal is to end the game with a flipped delver, 1 island and a wasteland in play, 1 counter in hand and the opponent with an empty board, a massive grip and 0 life. Anything that needs 3+ mana really needs to be an instant game-ender or really pull you from the brink to nearly win (TNN and SCM+brainstorm et al comes to mind).


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  6. #26

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Like FTW suggested, building around Thing in the Ice makes the most sense, especially if youíre expecting to face a mostly fair meta where a 0/4 wall turn two isnt bad.

    FTW suggested the below list, which I put together over the weekend and it works very well.

    //Creatures: 12
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Thing in the Ice
    2 Snapcaster Mage
    2 True Name Nemesis

    //Enchanments: 3
    3 Back to Basics

    //Spells: 27
    4 Force of Will
    4 Preordain
    4 Ponder
    4 Stifle
    4 Daze
    3 Vapor Snag
    3 Dismember
    1 Spell Snare

    //Lands: 18
    4 Wasteland
    14 Island

    //Sideboard:
    3 Surgical Extraction
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    2 Spell Pierce
    1 Flusterstorm
    2 True-Name Nemesis
    2 Echoing Truth
    3 Propaganda

    Iím impressed FTW. Thanks for your suggestions.

  7. #27

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    Like FTW suggested, building around Thing in the Ice makes the most sense, especially if youíre expecting to face a mostly fair meta where a 0/4 wall turn two isnt bad.

    FTW suggested the below list, which I put together over the weekend and it works very well.

    //Creatures: 12
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Thing in the Ice
    2 Snapcaster Mage
    2 True Name Nemesis

    //Enchanments: 3
    3 Back to Basics

    //Spells: 27
    4 Force of Will
    4 Preordain
    4 Ponder
    4 Stifle
    4 Daze
    3 Vapor Snag
    3 Dismember
    1 Spell Snare

    //Lands: 18
    4 Wasteland
    14 Island

    //Sideboard:
    3 Surgical Extraction
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    2 Spell Pierce
    1 Flusterstorm
    2 True-Name Nemesis
    2 Echoing Truth
    3 Propaganda

    Iím impressed FTW. Thanks for your suggestions.

    I was testeing some thing very similar to the follow list some months ago and it was working good.
    It is to be played quite aggressively.



    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Flooded Strand
    6 Island
    4 Wasteland
    1 Faerie Conclave
    1 Mishra's Factory

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    1 Preordain
    1 Temporal Mastery

    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 True-Name Nemesis
    2 Snapcaster Mage
    3 Walking Ballista

    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    2 Disrupt
    1 Misdirection

    1 Basilisk Collar

    3 Vapor Snag
    2 Dismember
    1 Psionic Blast


  8. #28
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    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    That's a pretty cool list! I would want to jam Dreadnoughts though.
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  9. #29

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Might seem like a newbie question, but whatís the basilisk collar doing? Long game? Wouldnít jitte or sword of red and blue be better for that?


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  10. #30

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by schweinefettmann View Post
    Might seem like a newbie question, but whatís the basilisk collar doing? Long game? Wouldnít jitte or sword of red and blue be better for that?


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    Basilisk Collar pairs well with Walking Ballista, making all legal targets that are creatures one-shot kills.

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  11. #31

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    That's a pretty cool list! I would want to jam Dreadnoughts though.
    Don't do that.

  12. #32

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    The new blue guy seems like a solid addition to the deck. Itís a flying 5/5 gurmag angler that pitches to FoW and also isnít bad in multiples the way Angler is...

    U
    Creature ó Salamander Drake
    Flying
    7{U}:Adapt 4.This ability costs {1} less to activate for each instant and sorcery card in your graveyard.
    1/1

    It even comes down as a 1/1 flyer on turn one to ping for damage starting turn one which neither Angler nor Cryptic Serpent could do. So itís not bad in the opening hand.

    Likewise itís a great top deck unlike Thing in the Ice.

    And you can even adapt at the end of your opponents turn so you can hold up mana for counterspells unlike TNN which required tapping out.

    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Salmander Drake
    35 Instants/Sorceries
    17 Island

    Seems like a very solid build for the deck, and competitive with multicolor Delver decks.

    óóóóó

    Itís better than Angler and Cryptic Serpent in that it has evasion and itís solid in your opening hand and a solid turn one play.

    Itís also better than Angler in that itís perfectly fine in multiples.

    Itís better than Thing in the Ice in that itís a great top deck Midgame.

    Itís better than True Name Nemesis in that it doesnít require you to tap out. You can hold up mana for countermagic and adapt it at the end of your opponents turn.

    The card itís most comparable to is Nimble Mongoose. Like mongoose itís a decent turn one play and a decent mid game play and never requires you to tap out. The difference is that itís way bigger and flys. Well worth the lack of shroud.
    Last edited by Captain Hammer; 01-08-2019 at 12:07 AM.

  13. #33
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    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    This is where I'm starting:


    4x Delver of Secrets
    4x Winged Salamander
    4x Cryptic Serpent
    2x Snapcaster Mage

    4x Brainstorm
    4x Thought Scour
    2x Ponder
    4x Daze
    4x Force of Will
    4x Stifle
    2x Spell Pierce
    4x Vapor Snag

    4x Wasteland
    4x Flooded Strand
    2x Polluted Delta
    2x Scalding Tarn
    6x Island


    Psionic Blast, Dismember, Temporal Mastery, and Echoing Truth are all on my testing list as well.
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  14. #34

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    You have no reason not to run TNN, also as i suggested in the other thread you could try mental note.
    Lastly, you definitely should run the full set of ponder
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  15. #35
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    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Cool feedback. Mental Note seems pretty cool; replacing Thought Scour or in addition? I crammed in 10 cantrips already, 2 more ponder makes 12. I guess leaning on Thought Scour milling is a little iffy, maybe swap the counts to 4 Ponder/2 Scour. My thinking was that Thought Scour has additional utility by hitting opponents while mental note can only hit my own library.

    TNN seems fine and all, but I'm not sure about the 3 mana. I know it should be fine with 18 lands + 12 cantrips, I was just trying to avoid anything above 2 functional mana (besides Snapcaster.) I went for Dr. Obvious Snappy with Thought Scour synergy. I wish I could build this without TNN, but I think reality will tell me otherwise. It's the best blue threat.
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  16. #36

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Cool feedback. Mental Note seems pretty cool; replacing Thought Scour or in addition? I crammed in 10 cantrips already, 2 more ponder makes 12. I guess leaning on Thought Scour milling is a little iffy, maybe swap the counts to 4 Ponder/2 Scour. My thinking was that Thought Scour has additional utility by hitting opponents while mental note can only hit my own library.

    TNN seems fine and all, but I'm not sure about the 3 mana. I know it should be fine with 18 lands + 12 cantrips, I was just trying to avoid anything above 2 functional mana (besides Snapcaster.) I went for Dr. Obvious Snappy with Thought Scour synergy. I wish I could build this without TNN, but I think reality will tell me otherwise. It's the best blue threat.
    Surely scour is just a better version of note, so you should the full set of scour before even considering note.

    TNN should be just better than snapcaster in this deck anyway, forcing your opponent to have an answer for it could be beneficial given that you are not running other creatures soft to -1/-1, and you likely need some good beaters for the miracle MU, your actual creature pool gets demolished by 3 snap 4 stp 4 reb, nemesis at least requires reb on cast or terminus/council's.

    As a note, you definitely need a solid amount of beb/fluster, this list is ruper soft to reb as I said.

    Changes i would make
    -2 snap
    -0/1 serpent (could be too heavy to run 8 cards that absolutely need 5/6 spells to be relevant)
    +2/3 Nemesis
    -1/2 Scour
    -0/1/2 pierce
    +2 ponder
    +0/1 dismember

    sb must have
    2/3 beb
    2/3 flusterstorm
    0/1/2 vendilion
    2/3 gy hate
    1/2/3 b2b
    0/1/2/3 submerge/dismember/pongify/unsubstantiate
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  17. #37
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    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    Surely scour is just a better version of note, so you should the full set of scour before even considering note.

    TNN should be just better than snapcaster in this deck anyway, forcing your opponent to have an answer for it could be beneficial given that you are not running other creatures soft to -1/-1, and you likely need some good beaters for the miracle MU, your actual creature pool gets demolished by 3 snap 4 stp 4 reb, nemesis at least requires reb on cast or terminus/council's.

    As a note, you definitely need a solid amount of beb/fluster, this list is ruper soft to reb as I said.

    Changes i would make
    -2 snap
    -0/1 serpent (could be too heavy to run 8 cards that absolutely need 5/6 spells to be relevant)
    +2/3 Nemesis
    -1/2 Scour
    -0/1/2 pierce
    +2 ponder
    +0/1 dismember

    sb must have
    2/3 beb
    2/3 flusterstorm
    0/1/2 vendilion
    2/3 gy hate
    1/2/3 b2b
    0/1/2/3 submerge/dismember/pongify/unsubstantiate
    All good points. Flusterstorm is definitely on my list for the sideboard. In regards to Terminus, I don't think it's unreasonable to have Thought Scour be a counter to it. It should be pretty obvious when my opponent is going to trigger it on my turn (brainstorm or Portent trigger) and I can respond to the them on the stack with Thought Scour. Not a perfect answer, but decent.

    Here is my rough sideboard:

    2x Surgical Extraction (Reanimator, Lands, Dredge, Storm)
    1x Tormod's Crypt (Reanimator, Lands, Dredge, Storm)
    2x Dismember (Eldrazi, Death and Taxes, Delver mirrors)
    3x Winter Orb (Miracles, Grixis Control, Lands)
    1x Vendilion Clique
    2x Flusterstorm (Miracles, Grixis Control)
    1x Echoing Truth (Chalice, Ensnaring Bridge
    2x Sower of Temptation (Show and Tell, Eldrazi)


    Maindeck I will start with this (small changes based on your feedback):

    4x Delver of Secrets
    4x (New Salamander)
    3x Cryptic Serpent
    2x Snapcaster Mage

    4x Brainstorm
    4x Ponder
    4x Thought Scour
    4x Stifle
    4x Daze
    4x Force of Will
    1x Spell Pierce
    4x Vapor Snag

    4x Wasteland
    4x Flooded Strand
    2x Polluted Delta
    2x Scalding Tarn
    6x Island


    I don't have TNN's at the moment, but I should be able to pick them up pretty easy. Until then I'll just jam snapcasters. Vapor Snag, Snap, Vapor Snag is pretty great when racing. Snag on Snapcaster to rebuy it isn't terrible either. I'm also debating going to 17 lands, but I worry that it will be just a little too greedy. Back to Basics is definitely better than Winter Orb, but I think it will serve much the same function at 2 mana instead of 3. It isn't a permanent effect by any means, but again, I have the Orbs and I need to pick up the BtB's.
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  18. #38

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    I would recommend this as the test build to figure out which cards will best synergize with this strategy...


    4 Delver of Secrets
    3 Flying Salamander
    1 Cryptic Serpent
    1 Snapcaster Mage
    1 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Back to Basics

    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Thought Scour
    4 Stifle
    4 Force of Will
    3 Daze
    1 Preordain
    1 Vapor Snag
    1 Dismember
    1 Snap
    1 Spell Snare
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Counterspell
    1 Mental Note

    4 Wasteland
    14 Island/Fetchlands

    I think that list includes every single card that might be worth playing in this deck.

  19. #39

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    I would recommend this as the test build to figure out which cards will best synergize with this strategy...


    4 Delver of Secrets
    3 Flying Salamander
    1 Cryptic Serpent
    1 Snapcaster Mage
    1 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Back to Basics

    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Thought Scour
    4 Stifle
    4 Force of Will
    3 Daze
    1 Preordain
    1 Vapor Snag
    1 Dismember
    1 Snap
    1 Spell Snare
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Counterspell
    1 Mental Note

    4 Wasteland
    14 Island/Fetchlands

    I think that list includes every single card that might be worth playing in this deck.
    Unsubstantiate seems a glaring omission. ĎCountersí supreme verdict and other uncounterable spells, and can work as bounce if need be.


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  20. #40

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    How Flying Salamander is better than Jace's Phantasm ?

    Both require to play 4X Thought Scour

    Before turn 4 it is quite impossible for both of them to become 5/5.
    Let analyse the pros and cons of both.

    - Flying Salamander requires spending mana to level up
    - Jace's Phantasm do not require mana
    - Flying Salamander can be bolted in response to level upping and the ability can be stifled
    - Jace's Phantasm becoming 5/5 is a static ability
    - Thought Scour your opponent is usually more interesting than yourself
    (even at the end of turn 1 to understand what is your opponent playing)

    I vote for Jace's Phantasm, even if the difference is quite small.
    Do you think Flying Salamander is faster than Jace's Phantasm to "level up" ?

    In any case, in order to let thim being useful in the first turns, I would add a couple of Ninja of the Deep Hours ... something similar to these lists
    http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=9037&iddeck=66022
    http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11599&iddeck=84889
    .... but with 4 True-Name Nemesis (too strong not to play) and some Walking Ballistas (very strong too and versatile) that didn't exist at the time of the lists linked just above

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