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Thread: Mono U Tempo Delver

  1. #61
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    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Am I missing something? Why all the one ofs? I can't imagine not running 4 true name.

  2. #62
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    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by joaquin View Post
    Am I missing something? Why all the one ofs? I can't imagine not running 4 true name.
    He's testing which cards are good and which ones aren't. It's an experiment. Once he knows which cards overperform/underperform he will streamline the list.
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  3. #63

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Looking at the deckslists and the comments in this thread I feel like people are aiming more to a mid-range deck instead of a tempo deck.

    Being a tempo-deck means you drop efficient (cheap to drop and hold their weight) creatures and annoy the opponent enough to slow them down and win on those critters.
    Being mono-blue doesn't mean that you can just forget about this concept but rather see what cards work in the already existing tempo-decks and then have a look what you miss or can add.
    Being mono-blue gives you basics, meaning you won't get wasted and therefore have a bit better build-up of mana. This also gives you acces to stuff like Back to Basics.
    It also means you will miss on the highly efficient removal like Bolt/Push/Plow.

    Basic tempo-shell:
    10-12 creatures
    10-12 counters
    8-10 draw spells
    4-6 removal spells
    4-8 other disrupt spells like Stifle or Discard
    around 18 land including 4 waste and 8 fetch

    So, the best of most tempo decks this mean you have a 'standard' of:
    Creatures: 6
    4 Delver
    2 TNN (no tempo deck should play more then 2 since they are slow as hell)

    Counters: 12
    4 FoW
    4 Daze
    2 Pierce
    2 Snare
    Since you lack the best removal spells available, a few Snare should help out countering 2-drops.
    For the same reason Pierce and Snare instead of something like Flusterstorm.

    Draw: 8
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder

    Removal: 6
    4 Vapor Snag (probely best viable option for blue)
    2 Psionic Blast (cluncky but it has some use) or Reality Shift (actually removes creatures for blue)

    Other disruption: 6
    4 Stifle (best way to stay/get ahead together with Wasteland)
    2 Back to Basics (maxing out land hate and topping your own curve)

    Lands: 18
    4 Waste
    8 Fetch (dropping Brainstorm could make this another 8 islands, but this probably will be a mistake)
    6 Island

    This gives 56 out of 60 cards, and the deck is still low on creatures.
    Adding another 4 creatures minimum like the new salamander could work, but it will need you to fill that grave quick.
    Cryptic Serpent could land somewhat fast if you play aggressive with your spells.

    Serpent and Pteramander have some nice synergy since they both care about instants/sorceries in the grave so there could be something worth designing to here.
    Having them both in the deck it might be worth trying to turbo-trash it and for this drop some cards like TNN and B2B and add some spells that would always fill the grave, like Thought Scour (not a fan since it does nothing else except filling the grave) or Preordain.

  4. #64
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    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Pretty good post, i agree with most of it. My approach is pretty much exactly what you are describing except i'm not convinced that btb is necessary maindeck. As you say, the threat count is low. I feel btb is a sideboard card. I also think Psionic Blast is at most a 1-of. Dismember is likely better. I'm missing a few cards but this is what i want to try.

    4x delver
    4x pteramander
    3x cryptic serpent
    1x vendilion clique
    4x brainstorm
    4x ponder
    2x thought scour
    4x stifle
    4x daze
    4x force of will
    2x spell pierce
    4x vapor snag
    1x psionic blast
    1x dismember
    4x wasteland
    8x fetch
    6x island

    Sideboard
    2x true-name nemesis
    2x winter orb
    2x flusterstorm
    2x surgical extraction
    2x faerie macabre
    1x dismember
    2x echoing truth
    2x sower of temptation
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  5. #65

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    I like that list. Forgot about Dismember for a second there, fits just fine.
    Might sleeve it up when I got the Pteramanders. Been looking for an excuse to play Psionic Blast in legacy for a while.

  6. #66

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Imagine if Dark Ritual also cantripped and could be played end of your opponents turn to generate on average 2 mana that can be used your next main phase. That’s basically what Mental Note and Thought Scour do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    There are too many great cards in blue. Just for the sake of figuring out which ones warrant maindeck space, it might make sense temporarily to replace 3 Ponder with narrow but powerful cards like 1 Invasive Surgery, 1 Spell Snare and 1 Unsubstantiate.


    4 Delver of Secrets
    1 Pteramander
    1 Spellstutter Sprite
    1 Thing in the Ice
    1 Snapcaster Mage
    1 Nimble Obstructionist
    1 Vendilion Clique
    1 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Cryptic Serpent
    1 Back to Basics

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Stifle
    4 Force of Will
    1 Daze
    1 Disrupt
    1 Spell Snare
    1 Invasive Surgery
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Misdirection
    1 Repeal
    1 Thought Scour
    1 Ponder
    1 Preordain
    1 Vapor Snag
    1 Dismember
    1 Snap
    1 Unsubstantiate
    1 Counterspell
    1 Psionic Blast
    1 Impulse or Flusterstorm or Echoing Truth or Chain of Vapor or Annul or Repulse or Curfew or Walking Ballista or Something Else

    4 Wasteland
    14 Island/Fetchlands

    The deck would just be packed full of blue good stuff and your opponent would have a damn near impossible time trying to play around your cards (they might for example delay a key play like Hymn or Natural Order for a turn to get around Daze only to eat an Invasive Surgery or Spell Snare).

    I like Impulse because it’s instant speed so you can leave lands untapped until EOT to use Stifle or any of your counterspells or Flash creatures or even just to grab the most suitable 1cc instant for the situation from the top 4 cards.
    Just to follow up, I am starting to think based on my time with the above list that there might be some logic to a list with...

    4 Delver
    4 Pteramander
    4 Cryptic Serpent

    4 Thought Scour
    4 Mental Note
    22 Other Instants

    4 Wasteland
    14 Island

    The reason is that Cryptic Serpent/Ptermander take a while to turn on without Misstep/Scour but are super busted if they do get turned on early. 2 mana 5/5 flyers or 6/5s outclass most other threats in the format especially early game. They end games in a couple of turns and are cheap enough that they can be played while still leaving mana open to counter removal. Misstep and Thought Scour in addition to functioning as Dark Rituals, are greatly aided by the fact that they are instants unlike Ponder/Preordain. Being able to leave mana up for stifle/spell snare/pierce/snag/repeal/disrupt/impulse/counterspell mana open and then casting a cantrip only if your opponents play isn’t worth countering is so powerful that I would not miss Ponder/Preordain at all.

    It makes a lot of sense game one. Post board if graveyard hate is a concern, the Scours/Notes can be subbed for by hate pieces and the Serpents subbed in with stuff like Spellstutter vs combo or Clique/TNN vs control.
    Last edited by Captain Hammer; 01-20-2019 at 09:48 PM.

  7. #67

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    Imagine if Dark Ritual also cantripped and could be played end of your opponents turn to generate on average 2 mana that can be used your next main phase. That’s basically what Mental Note and Thought Scour do.

    Just to follow up, I am starting to think based on my time with the above list that there might be some logic to a list with...

    4 Delver
    4 Pteramander
    4 Cryptic Serpent

    4 Thought Scour
    4 Mental Note
    22 Other Instants

    4 Wasteland
    14 Island

    The reason is that Cryptic Serpent/Ptermander take a while to turn on without Misstep/Scour but are super busted if they do get turned on early. 2 mana 5/5 flyers or 6/5s outclass most other threats in the format especially early game. They end games in a couple of turns and are cheap enough that they can be played while still leaving mana open to counter removal. Misstep and Thought Scour in addition to functioning as Dark Rituals, are greatly aided by the fact that they are instants unlike Ponder/Preordain. Being able to leave mana up for stifle/spell snare/pierce/snag/repeal/disrupt/impulse/counterspell mana open and then casting a cantrip only if your opponents play isn’t worth countering is so powerful that I would not miss Ponder/Preordain at all.

    It makes a lot of sense game one. Post board if graveyard hate is a concern, the Scours/Notes can be subbed for by hate pieces and the Serpents subbed in with stuff like Spellstutter vs combo or Clique/TNN vs control.
    What turn Pteramander becomes 5/5 ?
    What turn are you able to play Cryptic Serpent ?

  8. #68

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by frustanani View Post
    What turn Pteramander becomes 5/5 ?
    What turn are you able to play Cryptic Serpent ?
    In the list the 4 Thought Scour/Mental Note, and assuming you don’t get stuck at 1 Island.
    Turn 4 for Pteramander, Turn 3-4 for Serpent.

  9. #69

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    If we played a list replacing the mental notes with say more spell pierces, snares and chain of vapors, would that extra turn or 2 to turn em into 5/5s be such a massive downside? My thought would be that we’re still pushing our opponents back while putting our big foot forwards. And a 1 mana-no-effect-on-tempo card doesn’t seem great.


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  10. #70

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by schweinefettmann View Post
    If we played a list replacing the mental notes with say more spell pierces, snares and chain of vapors, would that extra turn or 2 to turn em into 5/5s be such a massive downside? My thought would be that we’re still pushing our opponents back while putting our big foot forwards. And a 1 mana-no-effect-on-tempo card doesn’t seem great.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Yeah. You can play something else instead of the Mental Note. Thought scour is solid vs Miracles though, I think it’s well worth playing.

  11. #71

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    In the list the 4 Thought Scour/Mental Note, and assuming you don’t get stuck at 1 Island.
    Turn 4 for Pteramander, Turn 3-4 for Serpent.
    Too optimistic. No one before turn 4 unless you cast you spells with the only purpose to fill the grave. Most times turn 5.

    Can we agree that Thought Scour and Mental Note by themself are even whorse than Peek ?

    To my view Pteramander is a mid-game card. In mid-game I prefere True-Name Nemesis so much.

    The only way I could think Pteramander as a card interesting to play on turn 1 is having 3/4 Ninja of the Deep Hours. Something similar to how Mono-Blue Pauper is. Something like this.

    2 Flooded Strand
    4 Polluted Delta
    9 Island
    1 Wasteland
    1 Karakas

    4 Delver of Secrets
    2 Spellstutter Sprite
    3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
    4 Pteramander
    2 Walking Ballista
    3 True-Name Nemesis

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    1 Preordain
    2 Thought Scour
    3 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    1 Misdirection
    1 Dismember
    3 Vapor Snag
    2 Psionic Blast

    Sideboard:

    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Tsabo's Web
    1 Ghost Quarter
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Basilisk Collar
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Faerie Macabre
    1 Ratchet Bomb
    1 Powder Keg
    1 Declaration of Naught
    1 Venser, Shaper Savant


    What do you think ?

  12. #72
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    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by frustanani View Post
    Can we agree that Thought Scour and Mental Note by themself are even whorse than Peek ?
    No, we cannot agree. Thought Scour and Mental Note are both far and away better than Peek, so much so that it isn't even close. Thought Scour's ability to attack opponent's top of deck (Miracles, scry after mulligan), the ability to fill the graveyard to feed Pteramander and Cryptic Serpent, and it's ability to enable Snapcaster Mage all make it better than Peek. Peek gives you information and a blind draw. These aren't bad things, but don't support the overall strategy of making cheap, big threats. Thought Scour does. The added velocity is huge. If we are looking at Peek vs. Thought Scour in a vacuum, yes, Peek has the edge. We don't build or play decks in a vacuum, the synergy of Thought Scour is greater than Peek.

    To my view Pteramander is a mid-game card. In mid-game I prefere True-Name Nemesis so much.
    This is assuming you hit 3 mana to play True-Name Nemesis in a deck that plays 20 lands or fewer, at least in time to matter and uncountered. Pteramander is worse than Delver t1 but is better than Delver on t4, I grant you that. But Pteramander on t4 has scaled up to a 5/5 flyer for UU, something Delver cannot do. What we are trying to do is see if Pteramander is good enough for Legacy with already known quantities (Daze, Force, Wasteland, Stifle) rather than going even more off the beaten path with Ninja, etc.

    Now lets look at this situation:

    -Delver t1, flips turn 2, attacks for 3 damage turns 2, 3, and 4. Damage total = 9 by turn 4.
    -Pteramander t1, attacks for 1 turns 2 and 3, gets big t4 and attacks for 5 turn 4. Damage total = 7 by turn 4.

    So we can see that Delver is the ideal t1 threat, no problem. But lets go beyond t4.

    -Delver attacks for 3 turns 5, 6, and 7. Damage total = 18 by turn 7, likely winning the game.
    -Pteramancer attacks for 5 turns 5, 6, and 5. Damage total = 22 by turn 7, definitely winning you the game. (17 by turn 6, possibly closing the game out a turn sooner)

    I think that Pteramander is subtle. It doesn't go as fast as Delver as a single threat but makes up for that by potentially winning a full turn sooner. Now put all of that into light of what you're saying about Pteramander only being a good mid-game threat. It doesn't add up. Mid-game it is definitely better, because it can become a 5/5 on the same turn you cast it. This puts it out of Lightning Bolt range and threatens to trade with Gurmag Angler.

    It also isn't unreasonable to see 2 Pteramander, 1 Pteramander/1 Delver, or 2 Delver all winning in roughly the same time frame (likely turn 4-5.) Pteramander in this light is easily a good option for being Delvers 5-8.

    EDIT: Forgot to compare to TNN...

    -Pteramander t3, becomes 5/5 t4, attacks for 5 t4,5,6. Total damage = 15 (lethal by t7)
    -True-Name Nemesis t3, attacks for 3 t4,5,6. Total damage = 9 (lethal by turn t10 with no other damage, t9 if opponent fetched or did other damage to themselves.)

    Assuming no other threats or damage, True name takes a full 2 more turns to win the game. I'm not saying TNN isn't a good threat. It's power is in it's resilience not in its speed. In a tempo deck, speed should be priority #1. I would argue however that the card to cut for TNN is not Pteramander, but Cryptic Serpent (or split it 2/2)
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  13. #73

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    No, we cannot agree. Thought Scour and Mental Note are both far and away better than Peek, so much so that it isn't even close. Thought Scour's ability to attack opponent's top of deck (Miracles, scry after mulligan), the ability to fill the graveyard to feed Pteramander and Cryptic Serpent, and it's ability to enable Snapcaster Mage all make it better than Peek. Peek gives you information and a blind draw. These aren't bad things, but don't support the overall strategy of making cheap, big threats. Thought Scour does. The added velocity is huge. If we are looking at Peek vs. Thought Scour in a vacuum, yes, Peek has the edge. We don't build or play decks in a vacuum, the synergy of Thought Scour is greater than Peek.


    This is assuming you hit 3 mana to play True-Name Nemesis in a deck that plays 20 lands or fewer, at least in time to matter and uncountered. Pteramander is worse than Delver t1 but is better than Delver on t4, I grant you that. But Pteramander on t4 has scaled up to a 5/5 flyer for UU, something Delver cannot do. What we are trying to do is see if Pteramander is good enough for Legacy with already known quantities (Daze, Force, Wasteland, Stifle) rather than going even more off the beaten path with Ninja, etc.

    Now lets look at this situation:

    -Delver t1, flips turn 2, attacks for 3 damage turns 2, 3, and 4. Damage total = 9 by turn 4.
    -Pteramander t1, attacks for 1 turns 2 and 3, gets big t4 and attacks for 5 turn 4. Damage total = 7 by turn 4.

    So we can see that Delver is the ideal t1 threat, no problem. But lets go beyond t4.

    -Delver attacks for 3 turns 5, 6, and 7. Damage total = 18 by turn 7, likely winning the game.
    -Pteramancer attacks for 5 turns 5, 6, and 5. Damage total = 22 by turn 7, definitely winning you the game. (17 by turn 6, possibly closing the game out a turn sooner)

    I think that Pteramander is subtle. It doesn't go as fast as Delver as a single threat but makes up for that by potentially winning a full turn sooner. Now put all of that into light of what you're saying about Pteramander only being a good mid-game threat. It doesn't add up. Mid-game it is definitely better, because it can become a 5/5 on the same turn you cast it. This puts it out of Lightning Bolt range and threatens to trade with Gurmag Angler.

    It also isn't unreasonable to see 2 Pteramander, 1 Pteramander/1 Delver, or 2 Delver all winning in roughly the same time frame (likely turn 4-5.) Pteramander in this light is easily a good option for being Delvers 5-8.

    EDIT: Forgot to compare to TNN...

    -Pteramander t3, becomes 5/5 t4, attacks for 5 t4,5,6. Total damage = 15 (lethal by t7)
    -True-Name Nemesis t3, attacks for 3 t4,5,6. Total damage = 9 (lethal by turn t10 with no other damage, t9 if opponent fetched or did other damage to themselves.)

    Assuming no other threats or damage, True name takes a full 2 more turns to win the game. I'm not saying TNN isn't a good threat. It's power is in it's resilience not in its speed. In a tempo deck, speed should be priority #1. I would argue however that the card to cut for TNN is not Pteramander, but Cryptic Serpent (or split it 2/2)
    Yep I’d definitely be agreeing with that - cryptic serpent has been pretty lacking when I’ve tried it. It clogs up the hand early game, and drops down only after you’ve reached turns 4-5, 3 if you’re really lucky. Sometimes, if you get stifled off a fetch early and you’ve already BSd away your extra islands, it’s basically dead weight.

    Same can almost be said about TNN sometimes though. I feel like this deck simply needs 1 extra 1-drop threat to really make it sing. Like 10 1-drops, 4-6 2 drops and the rest being disruption.


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  14. #74
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    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    To tag in on the Pteramander conversation, we’ve seen this card before: Thing in the Ice. It’s the same idea - the Pyroblast’able threat that takes multiple turns to become a real threat.

    In other decks (which have access to black) there’s a significant difference between Pteramander and Gurmag people keep forgetting: you don’t get double mana from each Fetchland.

    In terms of mono-U, the main advantage of another 1-drop threat likely indicates a Standstill build (Pteramander or Proven Combatant-types). The strategy ofc has issues with lack of access to wrath and anti-artifact effects. By itself Pteramander applies so little pressure that you’re likely forced to play into wraths, which is another point in favor of safe approaches (Factory/manland).

  15. #75
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    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    I think there is a big difference between Pteramander and Thing in the Ice, apart from the obvious fact that it's a 1-mana evasive threat instead of a 2 mana wall. Thing in the Ice getting played on turn 7 still needs you to play 4 more spells to become a legitimate threat. Pteramancer on t7, or any turn when there are 7 instants/sorceries in your graveyard, is an immediate 5/5 flyer for UU. Same with Cryptic Serpent, as soon as the qualification is met you have a 6/5 for UU. Thing in the Ice is only good early, Serpent/Pteramander are significant upgrades in the mid-game. Both Serpent/Pteramander allow you put land-flood to good use as well because both are discounts. Flooding into 4-5 lands is terrible for Thing in the Ice, it's just fine for Pteramander/Serpent.

    I wouldn't advocate for Standstill in this deck, this isn't a Dreadnought deck. That deck uses 2 cards for 1 threat so the need to re-fill is there. In this deck it's all tempo, not combo. You might be able to make a case for playing 22 lands including a set of Factory instead of Pteramander, but I don't think it's aggressive enough. It's a different deck.
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  16. #76

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Last tests on cockatrice: the deck works really good ... even I know Cockatrice is not a great platform.

    - UB Death Shadow 2-0 (so easy match up).
    - UBR Grixis Control 2-0 or 2-1 (Ballista is a boss here, I disrupted a Hymn and misdirected an other one). I played aggressively.
    - UR don't know what version 2-0. He had Pyromancer (killed by Ballista immediately) and red enchantment who does damages.
    - Nik Fit with Rector of the Big Big Planeswalkers 2-0.
    - M.O.S.T. 3-2 (difficult match up .. we need to make denial .. with Wasteland + WBallista on the Birds and the 1/1 forest)
    - Lands with Punishing Fire and Dark Depth 2-0 (G1 race, G2 Surgical on Stage, Faerie Macabre on Loam and racing with Nemesis)
    - Mono U Delver with Cryptic Serpent 2-0 LOL MIRROR !!! I race faster and better. In the time he was thowing his cantrips into the wind (one disrupted) in order to be able to play his 3 Cryptic Serpent and his Nemesis, I protected my Basilisk Collar and 2 Nemesis for the win (with a Ballista too). Serpents do not fly and Ballista catches you even if you hide.
    Can't remember if a played against others.

    Same list as previously posted with 19 lands (4 Wasteland 1 Mishra's Factory 1 Faerie Conclave + Islands & Fetches)

    4 Delver
    1 Vendilion ----> secondo Snap is better or I might try a Predict or a Trinket Mage
    4 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Snapcaster Mage
    3 Walking Ballista
    1 Basilisk Collar ----> So Nice
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    1 Preordain
    1 Temporal Mastery
    3 Force of Will
    2 Misdirection
    4 Daze
    2 Disrupt
    3 Vapor Snag
    2 Psionic Blast
    1 Dismember
    Side
    3 Ratchet Bomb
    2 Faerie Macabre
    3 Surgical Extraction
    2 Spell Pierce
    1 Back to Basics
    1 Declaration of Naught
    1 Hibernation
    2 Pithing Needle

    This list works well. A lot. I tried also the lists with the creatures who wants spells in the grave but for me they don't work.
    Nemesis and Ballistas are so superior. Those list have even troubles against Baleful Strix.

    I nearly allways made the last damages via direct damage with Psionic Blast or Ballista anticipating 1 turn.
    I might want a Jitte in the sideboard and I will test Karakas in the main instead of Mishra's Factory.

  17. #77

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Just throwing a thought out there but has anyone ever looked into Curious Homunculus? Very easy to flip, decent body with prowess, nullifies opposing taxing like Daze and Thalia...

  18. #78
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    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    It's close, but I don't think playable. Easier to 'flip' than Pteramander but doesn't have evasion. Prowess is nice, but it's still underpowered compared to Gurmag (really the base power level we need to contemplate.) Pteramander at least trades with Gurmag. If we wanted a prowess threat then red is undeniably the best color for that (Swiftspear, burn spells.) If we are going into oddball territory then I think cards like Tempest Djinn and Thing in the Ice are what you're looking for.
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  19. #79

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Glass House View Post
    Just throwing a thought out there but has anyone ever looked into Curious Homunculus? Very easy to flip, decent body with prowess, nullifies opposing taxing like Daze and Thalia...
    I tried that card in my Grixis Tempo shell a long time ago. Was actually really easy to flip and not all that bad but I had better alternatives in that color like some Delve creatures and Pyromancer. The prowless didn't trigger that much since I had a reactive playstyle. It was really great in the D&T match-up though, being the anti-Thalia. Even lets you hardcast FoW on a regulair basis.

    Edit: keep in mind it won't counter Daze since Daze does not add an additional cost.
    Also it might be better then Serpent since it's faster to hit the table and flip then to cast the Serpent.
    Being colorless when flipped is also nice when fighting Mom and pro-blue crap.

  20. #80

    Re: Mono U Tempo Delver

    Thanks for the correction at Daze. Had a derp moment when I thought of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    If we are going into oddball territory then I think cards like Tempest Djinn and Thing in the Ice are what you're looking for.
    I think that Homunculus would still be better than those in this deck. Djinn has the obvious drawback of being 3 cmc, which is a big deal in tempo, and Thing is noticeably harder to flip, which again is a loss of tempo.
    Though Thing does have the amusing but very relevant interaction with Delver of not bouncing them.

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