Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: How many timetwister/time spiral-esque effects are legal in Legacy?

  1. #1

    How many timetwister/time spiral-esque effects are legal in Legacy?

    Or really any CA spell that lets you draw a bunch of cards on the cheap, but aren't played because it mutually benefits your opponent as well.

    The only one I can think of is this 3 cmc blue spell that nobody could abuse in the past since you're forced to end your turn immediately. (I do not know the name of this card so I would appreciate some help)

    I had an epiphany on the toilet just now you see.. I have been drafting alot of MTGO Vintage Cube Richman style on X-mage and I've drafted some really stellar Storm decks that blow any legacy deck out of the waters. The common support for these vintage cube storm archetypes beyond the obvious stuff you would see in constructed Legacy + Vintage storm was the draw 7s in Timetwister, Time Spiral, Memory Jar, and Wheel of Fortune coupled with Fastbond.

    Well guess what creature would sometimes make the cut among a selection of uber powerful cards and busted interactions that you never expect in any storm deck? Leovald

    Why? Because the interaction between Leovald and the Timetwisters is busted enough to justify his inclusion.

    As for how all of this ties into the Legacy format despite the reliance on banned cards? Well, I believe the Leovald + Timetwister combo is strong enough on its own merits that the usage of weaker iterations just might suffice enough for your format. The advantage of this 2-card combo among the countless others available in Legacy is that doesn't involve cards that are dead on their own. Obvious Leovald is obvious. The legacy legal Timetwister-esque effects are subpar as there's most likely some limitation that prevents them from being chained or too expensive; otherwise I'm sure they would had been utilized in Storm archetypes and subsequently banned. However they still leave you with a grip full of gas on its own and this gives it the unnatural ability to fuel its own combo.

    Well, I want to steer clear of any that are too expensive for Storm because they're probably uncastable, so the focus would be on the cheap ones that have some condition prevent it from being chained. I would also prefer to keep it in BUG colors. Anyways, if there's a critical mass of these draw 7s then that enable powerful cards like Mox Diamond that don't see play as a result of the card disadvantage since you would never suffer the consequences with all the draw 7s. You could even say this hypothetical deck would be a natural for Force of Will if it ever had any.

    This hypothetical deck's spell compilation should all ideally fit neatly in the categories of fast mana, disruption, and the Leovalds. The only other creature I would think to play are the Deathrite Shamans since it can be classified as fast mana with situational disruption potential. The goal here is to asymmetrically benefit from your draw 7s to abuse them so they aren't bad without Leovald in play. I would also want to play the closest approximation to Fastbond for reasons of deploying your hand faster while simultaneously lowering the land count the next Timetwister would draw into to make it that much more potent.

    Of course, this is all assuming there is even this critical mass of Timetwister like effects that are legal in Legacy. Truth be told, I actually wanted to post this in the constructed Vintage subsection but it's so bereft of activity that it seems pointless. Reddit and MTGsalv can go suck themselves, and if I get shitty responses from trash scrubs, then this will be my last thread here. I will just conclude there's no public forums for MTG where people with talent actually congregate. I do not compete, because of persisting legal limitations for around a decade now. I just like brewing competitive decks that I can call my own for fun, but the the Legacy card pool is too steep for a hobby I'm not that heavily committed in. IF I'm supported, I will at least put effort into constructing some rough draft

    I wanted to ask why is there no attempt to abuse Timetwisters and Timespirals in conjunction with Leovald in probably a storm shell supported with Fastbond. I've never played that format before, but I suspect the answer is tied to why people don't play Fastbond there of which I won't elaborate further into this speculation because none of you guys will probably care.

    The only thing I really want to write is this; Reid Duke I am disappointed. You're like the only so-called MTG pro that actually has talent I have some respect for I can think of right now. So you can better imagine how steep of a threshold it is for me to acknowledge talent; I think LSV is a luck sacking idiot just slightly ahead of the rest of the trash. I seen your video attempting to bring Leovald into constructed Vintage. Why do you not even bother with Timetwisters or Time Spirals? You can easily power them out and even abuse with Fastbond; a card you don't have to splash for. This also same Vintage deck with a higher land count builtin because you're main decking hate for all the fast artifact mana. Maybe your Greensun zenith experimentation may had panned out better results with the inclusion of Fastbond since there are some situationally busted creatures like Lotus Cobra with Fastbond out. I suspect you've already given up on Leovald in Vintage because you would had withheld posting your video until you won an event with it. I suppose you did acknowledge somewhere you're only good at refining existing decks.

    Anyone who has personal connections with Reid, pls do me the honor relaying thread.

  2. #2

    Re: How many timetwister/time spiral-esque effects are legal in Legacy?

    Lulwut

    I'm afraid I don't know Reid, but I do know gatherer (it's useuful, you should learn how to use it).

    http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Se...er]+[hand]

    You probably want Notion Thief too and maybe dack feydon. Maybe you're 4C leovold with a combo that doesn't win the game or affect the board... that can hose combo and other blue decks. Could be sweet.
    Junk and Stoned Rhinos.

  3. #3

    Re: How many timetwister/time spiral-esque effects are legal in Legacy?

    It's really not that complicated:
    1. If you are using a combo deck you have no interest in casting Trained Armodon
    2. If you are using a creature beatdown deck or a grindy control deck then most likely you don't want to be refilling your opponent's hand with draw 7s
    3. If we have established that the two cards don't really go together strategically, but work well if you can assemble a 2-card combo, then why not spend resources toward assembling a cheaper 2-card combo that actually wins the game like key/vault or something else
    4. If you are a storm/combo deck and you resolve a wheel then you are likely already winning (or should be) regardless of whether you have Leovold in play or not

    In terms of Legacy-legal wheels Twister, Windfall, and Wheel itself are all out, so the only things left are things like Dark Deal, Day's Undoing, Burning Inquiry, etc. I think the least-bad options are probably Geier Reach Sanitarium or Anvil of Bogardan, which are pretty mediocre in combo decks. There are some literal Wheels but they are all hard to cast (expensive mana or other weird requirements: Reforge the Soul, Magus of the Wheel, Wheel of Fate, Time Reversal, Diminishing Returns, etc)

    If you don't care about the discard cards aspect then Leovold also combos with stuff like Opportunity or Howling Mine, but then you run into point #2 above where all of these cards are generally not very good in decks that want to be playing Leovold in the first place.

    The only thing I really want to write is this; Reid Duke I am disappointed. You're like the only so-called MTG pro that actually has talent I have some respect for I can think of right now. So you can better imagine how steep of a threshold it is for me to acknowledge talent; I think LSV is a luck sacking idiot just slightly ahead of the rest of the trash.
    You're the same guy who made the post on the Tezzeret deck in the modern board right? It's so funny how neatly you tick the crank boxes in Gardner's writing from the 50s

    1. The pseudo-scientist considers himself a genius.
    2. He regards other researchers as stupid, dishonest or both.
    3. He believes there is a campaign against his ideas, a campaign comparable to the persecution of Galileo or Pasteur. He may attribute his 'persecution' to a conspiracy by a scientific 'masonry' who are unwilling to admit anyone to their inner sanctum without appropriate initiation.
    4. Instead of side-stepping the mainstream, the pseudo-scientist attacks it head-on: The most revered scientist is Einstein so Gardner writes that Einstein is the most likely establishment figure to be attacked.

  4. #4

    Re: How many timetwister/time spiral-esque effects are legal in Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jain_Mor View Post
    Lulwut

    I'm afraid I don't know Reid, but I do know gatherer (it's useuful, you should learn how to use it).

    http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Se...er]+[hand]

    You probably want Notion Thief too and maybe dack feydon. Maybe you're 4C leovold with a combo that doesn't win the game or affect the board... that can hose combo and other blue decks. Could be sweet.


    The idea is with a focus on fast mana regardless of CA and aggressively using cheap/free disruption like Force of Will, you ought to be able to mind twist your opponent to oblivion turn 2-3 while you recoup with a fresh new set of 7 cards. The major kink is that you can't just Dark Ritual that Leovald out prior. Fastbond was really good in this apartment, but alas its banned. There is Mox Diamond and now I'm considering Chrome Mox as well.

    I initially dismissed the latter because it exiles instead of discards and any card exiled by it is one that can never be bought back with a Timetwister effect. However, constructed is a 60 card format where I'm going to want redundant cantrips to simultaneously thin out the deck and keep the deck consistent, so its not like an exiled Brainstorm or Ponder will be sorely felt.

    Notion Thief is a 4 cmc with a more vulnerable body that doesn't troll removal spells like Leovald does. Remember, the selling point to this combo are that the involved components are strong enough on their own to play outside the combo. So resiliency is an important trait to retain. Besides, aren't the tempo Delver archetypes the top dog of the format right now? I would like to remain as low to the ground as possible. Only other creature I'm thinking of main decking right now are the Deathrite Shamans. If more creatures were to be included, I think I would something Jace, Vryn's prodigy or Snapcaster.

    Actually this is embarrassing; I just noticed a typo in the OP while I was typing the next sentence.

    Anyways, remember all the spells outside of Leovald in the deck ought to either fit in the category of fast mana, disruption, or card draw. This is so the board state never grows out of control. :^)

    Dack Fayden is very interesting in tandem with Leovald. Probably only effective in slow MUs, but certainly warrants testing regardless if there wasn't a preference to stay in 3 colors. I didn't mind going 4 colors in those vintage cube drafts, but I also understand that wastelands/strip mines are much less prominent there. I'm aware 4 color Delver is the rave in Legacy, but the vast majority of the player-base have historically proven to operate on faulty logics. While my experience in the Legacy format is too limited for me to confidently condemn this 4 color greed, Reid Duke has shied away from this approach in the recent past and I value his insight over the consensus of the majority.


    Onto the link you provided me..

    Day's Undoing was what was I thinking about,

    Dark Deal would had been perfect it didn't care what your handsize initially was since it can be Dark Ritual'ed out and is even card disadvantage since you're spending 3 mana to blindly cycle away your remaining hand. Remember, that new 7 card hand is what enables you to undo any progress in board development made prior to the combo.

    I don't like the creature ones because not only the dies to removal argument, but also you have to wait a turn

    Edit: Molten Psyche I misread. Its the same as Dark Deal

    Diminishing Returns, while slightly annoying is a 4cmc drop, still is conveniently able to follow up a Leovald. Okay, the card seems legit enough to put my idea into practice. Funny, I remember seeing this in Legacy Storm decks a while ago. I wonder why this it was abandoned? Was the threat of getting your Tendrils exiled too high a risk? How high land count would have to be if I want to include Mox Diamonds? I only see that card utilized in non-blue decks that don't have the cantrips factored in.

    And I see a Time Spiral in there.. why? Wasn't this card banned because it was too OP in blue storm? Are you insinuating this card is now legal?! I will check, but if so this places a high priority on anything that lets you dump lands onto the battlefield fast. I don't care how bad it is compared to Fastbond, I will pay any price just get to a semblance of what Fastbond does all because chaining Time Spirals is so worth it.
    Last edited by Bernkastel; 09-18-2017 at 10:38 AM.

  5. #5
    Land Destruction Enthusiast
    Megadeus's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2012
    Location

    Kennesaw, GA
    Posts

    5,572

    Re: How many timetwister/time spiral-esque effects are legal in Legacy?

    Who cares. Just cast Show and Tell and put in Griselchimp.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  6. #6

    Re: How many timetwister/time spiral-esque effects are legal in Legacy?

    Molten Psyche is legal in legacy for 1 mana (except the metalcraft part), it's called Winds of Change.

    Diminishing Returns was abandoned because it doesn't compare very favourably to Ad Nauseam or Past in Flames. Sometimes it's a 1-of in the sideboard of Burning Wish decks because it's still the cheapest sorcery draw-7 that exists.

    Time Spiral has been unbanned for nearly 7 years and it made non-Reset High Tide a decent combo deck for a while but nowadays the general consensus is that the best draw 7 comes with a 7/7 flying demon attached to it.

  7. #7

    Re: How many timetwister/time spiral-esque effects are legal in Legacy?

    This thread was amazing. Bad Dice_Box for chasing him away.

  8. #8
    Site Contributor
    Whitefaces's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2013
    Location

    London
    Posts

    1,378

    Re: How many timetwister/time spiral-esque effects are legal in Legacy?

    I enjoyed it too, please come back Bernkastel! Your decks are a continuous source of inspiration.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  9. #9
    plays Mountains
    Ace/Homebrew's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2011
    Location

    Philadelphia Area
    Posts

    2,257

    Re: How many timetwister/time spiral-esque effects are legal in Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernkastel View Post
    The only thing I really want to write is this; Reid Duke I am disappointed. You're like the only so-called MTG pro that actually has talent I have some respect for I can think of right now. So you can better imagine how steep of a threshold it is for me to acknowledge talent; I think LSV is a luck sacking idiot just slightly ahead of the rest of the trash. I seen your video attempting to bring Leovald into constructed Vintage. Why do you not even bother with Timetwisters or Time Spirals? You can easily power them out and even abuse with Fastbond; a card you don't have to splash for. This also same Vintage deck with a higher land count builtin because you're main decking hate for all the fast artifact mana. Maybe your Greensun zenith experimentation may had panned out better results with the inclusion of Fastbond since there are some situationally busted creatures like Lotus Cobra with Fastbond out. I suspect you've already given up on Leovald in Vintage because you would had withheld posting your video until you won an event with it. I suppose you did acknowledge somewhere you're only good at refining existing decks.

  10. #10
    Administrator
    Zilla's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2003
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    5,532

    Re: How many timetwister/time spiral-esque effects are legal in Legacy?

    Oooookay. Well, that was fun.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)