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Thread: wouldn't have been more interesting to see Leovold as a WGB card?

  1. #1
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    wouldn't have been more interesting to see Leovold as a WGB card?

    Sorry if this has been discussed before. Maybe I'm not thinking it straight but I feel like Leovold has been apretty good card that influenced the format and it just pushed decks that were already pretty good. It could've served a better role pushing the non-blue midrange decks. Or at least that's my opinion.

    Any thoughts?

  2. #2

    Re: wouldn't have been more interesting to see Leovold as a WGB card?

    The card was made for tiny leaders the fad, since bug didn't have a 3 cmc legend. Yes almost all the cards that came out of the commander and supplementary products have been mistakes and just pushed blue more in their weakest department (creatures):: baleful strix, shardless agent, true name nemesis, leovold. Interestingly all fit in bug.
    Junk and Stoned Rhinos.

  3. #3

    Re: wouldn't have been more interesting to see Leovold as a WGB card?

    Yes, you're absolutely right it should be junk colored. It even makes sense as a white card since Leovold is basically a hatebear and white has cards like spirit of the labyrinth that restrict the drawing of cards. I'm sure WotC can barely be bothered to test standard cards for how they'll affect legacy, let alone supplemental products like commander (which is stupid because they know full and well those cards can only be used in legacy, vintage, and a format which is played casually 99% of the time). It's repugnant that blue gets a haymaker like Leovold when printing it in junk colors might have been enough to give Maverick the push it needed to get back to a tier 1 deck.
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    Re: wouldn't have been more interesting to see Leovold as a WGB card?

    Same reason why TNN should have been a white card insted of blue - it would have still been a stupid card to play against, but at least it would have made more sense color-pie wise. Maro's explanation that blue gets the most cards with non-color protection is bullshit and downright wrong.
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  5. #5

    Re: wouldn't have been more interesting to see Leovold as a WGB card?

    I'm still trying to figure out what part of Leovold is Black.

    He's Spirit of the Labyrinth + Reparations. I don't even get where the green came from tbh, and the black?

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    Re: wouldn't have been more interesting to see Leovold as a WGB card?

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    I don't even get where the green came from tbh
    Because he's an elf, duh
    and the black?
    uh, because he's a bad elf, uhh, no further questions


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  7. #7
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    Re: wouldn't have been more interesting to see Leovold as a WGB card?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Same reason why TNN should have been a white card insted of blue - it would have still been a stupid card to play against, but at least it would have made more sense color-pie wise. Maro's explanation that blue gets the most cards with non-color protection is bullshit and downright wrong.
    You mean you don't see a straight line in terms of Blue's protection from 'not colors'? It goes:
    Shoreline Raider
    Riptide Biologist
    Horizon Drake
    True-Name Nemesis


    It's a pretty linear progression if you ask me. They were clearing building up to this for a while.

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  8. #8

    Re: wouldn't have been more interesting to see Leovold as a WGB card?

    Protection from Lands? The fuck?
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    Re: wouldn't have been more interesting to see Leovold as a WGB card?

    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    Protection from Lands? The fuck?
    Don't you even think of point that Maze of Ith at this BAMF.

    Should Leo have been different colors? Yes.

    But he isn't and Wizards isn't going to start hating Blue any time soon.
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  10. #10

    Re: wouldn't have been more interesting to see Leovold as a WGB card?

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Don't you even think of point that Maze of Ith at this BAMF.

    Should Leo have been different colors? Yes.

    But he isn't and Wizards isn't going to start hating Blue any time soon.
    That's kind of the problem with Leovold though no? He hates the fuck out of blue cause he hoses cantrips, but you're playing him in a deck with cantrips. In that regard, he's a pseudo-Counterbalance (sometimes better, sometimes worse), but he can also attack you.

    There's no question if Leo weren't blue (literally any non-blue shard/wedge) he'd be positive for the format and maybe even make a new archetype. Wizards just needs to stop printing cards that hate on cantrips that are also blue. It just consolidates the format further.

  11. #11

    Re: wouldn't have been more interesting to see Leovold as a WGB card?

    Everyone: Blue gets the best cards, what are you doing about this so other colors get exciting and powerful cards?
    WOTC: yes.

  12. #12

    Re: wouldn't have been more interesting to see Leovold as a WGB card?

    Wizards: Here's another 3GGGGG 9/9 hexproof can't be countered, that's anti blue right??
    Quote Originally Posted by Acclimation View Post
    I about died from laughter when I was watching my feature match and the commentators called Tinfins a difficult and challenging deck.

    I'm not saying it's the easiest deck to play, but the plan is so linear that I could probably get white girl wasted and still beat people with the deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    Imagine the trauma of a man who has seen Mom into Crusader enough to mainboard three Cabal Pits.

  13. #13

    Re: wouldn't have been more interesting to see Leovold as a WGB card?

    Leovold is supposed to be the corrupt replacement to Edric.

    Blue+black does the "steal draws" thing like Notion Thief I guess. Green is for elf and fat butt.

  14. #14
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    Re: wouldn't have been more interesting to see Leovold as a WGB card?

    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    Wizards: Here's another 3GGGGG 9/9 hexproof can't be countered, that's anti blue right??
    Imagine we would get the same amount and quality of draw/library manipulation hate across the board as we get graveyard hate.
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  15. #15
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    Re: wouldn't have been more interesting to see Leovold as a WGB card?

    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    Protection from Lands? The fuck?
    Well I mean, Zendikar was the Land Is Cool set, right -- someone somewhere has to jump in front of that bus to prevent animated Cool Lands from getting out of hand! Just as a great king once ordered Silver Knight to jump in front of Goblins, the Department of Horizon Security sends us their Drake to do likewise. Faerie Conclave is still a thing, right? Right?

    Also unless my Gatherer-Fu is just abysmal, those 4 cards were the only instances of "protection from not-colors" I can find that predate TNN. Everything else was the requisite "protection from enemy colors" guys that every color tends to get. In fact, if one were to start getting really pedantic and beat a super dead horse, one would find that Blue has all of 19 cards that mention protection whereas White has 138.

    If any color were an heir to the imaginary throne of "protection from not-a-color-quality" it would probably be Green? It has a smattering of "protection from creature_type" guys and of course the nigh-unplayable "protection from artifacts" guys as well. But I mean really if we just look an incidences of protection in Magic, period, it's White. Separating out "protection from [other stuff]" is kind of like saying that Green should be better than Red at direct-damaging creatures because Hurricane and cards with Fight.

    BUT WHATEVER I'M TOOOOOOOOOTALLY OOOOOOVER IT
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    Re: wouldn't have been more interesting to see Leovold as a WGB card?

    Progenitus is technically blue.
    -rob

  17. #17

    Re: wouldn't have been more interesting to see Leovold as a WGB card?

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    Progenitus is technically blue.
    And technically correct is the best kind of correct.

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    Re: wouldn't have been more interesting to see Leovold as a WGB card?

    Leovold is first and foremost a poorly designed card with way too much going on, basically for free (no drawbacks, no sustain, and a wincon to boot). This card shouldn't exist, but it does. With that in mind as we look at the colors:

    I would say the black part of Leovold goes back to Chains where it's really difficult to go up cards. That's pretty classic when it comes to a black hate card - it only works most of the time:
    -Chains: dredge through it and ignore, put cards directly into hand
    -Leo: dredge through it, put cards directly into hand, slow cantrip
    -Yixlid Jailer: cast PiF from hand, everything in yard can be flashback'd (this one is included because we're talking about black hatecards negating CA)

    You could find more examples of legacy playables, and though exceptions do exist, it is generally true that black hate cards are mostly imperfect. Black hate cards don't really deal that much in absolutes outside of reinforcing graveyard disparity or sticking it to white/green (or strategies endemic to G/W, like tokens). The biggest problem with Leo's draw one ability is that it doesn't affect the controller. That's not really surprising though; wotc has pushed for card simplification and black has largely lost drawbacks on absurdly powerful effects.

    Green actually has a ton of cards that draw cards when you kill their guy, particularly when you're killing it in a U or B fashion (i.e. on the stack or once it's in play). Compost, Multani's Presence, Fecundity, Heartwood Storyteller, Insist, and Shaper's Sanctuary all see no legacy play, but they are all at least castable. The point here though is to illustrate that it is quite green to punish removal with cantrip - why Leo is on steroids and that is applied to the controller themselves and all their permanents, I have no idea.

    You can find examples of blue cards, particularly multicolored, which look a little like Leo. I don't think that's a great path to go down because we've already covered why he's green and why he's black; for as much as Leo does, it's really explained by those two. The most blue thing about Leo is that he's a hatebear - and hatebears notoriously say "play magic on my level." There is little more blue than punishing opponents for abandoning the stack and pointing removal at the battlefield instead of stack-based removal [countermagic].

    Nothing about Leo is red, but he is maybe a little white-ish (but white doesn't require opponents to play one the stack, or else). It's lazy card design, and should someone cast an overloaded spell (like say Reckless Spite, ignoring playability and invalid targeting of this card) targeting your Leo + other creature, Leo should make two draw triggers and shut himself down on the second one due to symmetry. Unfortunately, you'd need to specify that the controller's drawn card from the draw step not be counted against that - sadly wotc has a pattern of saying this is "too complex." Making Leo non-blue does a lot to mitigate why one party gets to cantrip unimpeded (since GWB doesn't draw bonus cards that much outside of Sylvan Library), but the card design is still terrible - nothing about Leo will ever make legacy better for its presence, wotc made a bad card not a color error.

  19. #19

    Re: wouldn't have been more interesting to see Leovold as a WGB card?

    I think people are getting a little too hung up over leo's colors. While it would have been fine in white instead of blue, and white does have similar effects like spirit of the labyrinthine, the real dirty problem with leo is that his anti-cantrip effect isn't symmetrical.

  20. #20
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    Re: wouldn't have been more interesting to see Leovold as a WGB card?

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    Progenitus is technically blue.
    Ughhhh I did not say this but I was referring to mono-colored guys specifically for this reason. I don't think there's any point in doing an ability head count for multicolored things. Especially when Wizards does shit like grouping colors together into "guilds/shards/khans" and then deciding on an MO for that subset of cards which might not reflect typical depictions of that color combination (ie, there are a bunch of Ravnica mechanics that don't belong to their colors so much as their guilds)
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