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  1. #1
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    MossNought

    This is not a new deck (see: MossNought, Aeon Bridge) but I've haven't played in a while (a decade, give or take) and I'm interested in developing this deck for the new meta.


    // MossNought

    // 60 Maindeck
    // 10 Creature
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    2 Snapcaster Mage

    // 17 Protection
    4 Force of Will
    4 Stifle
    4 Thoughtseize
    2 Counterbalance
    1 Devastation Tide
    1 Vision Charm
    1 Reality Ripple

    // 12 Deck Manipulation
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Lim-Dûl's Vault
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    // 20 Land
    4 Mosswort Bridge
    2 Island
    4 Tropical Island
    4 Underground Sea
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Misty Rainforest


    // 15 Sideboard (rough draft)
    SB: 3 Pithing Needle
    SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
    SB: 3 Flusterstorm
    SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
    SB: 4 Show and Tell



    The old MossNought/Aeon Bridge threads explain the strategy in more depth, but I'll give the spark notes version:

    - You win by hiding a big card under Mosswort Bridge, resolving Phyrexian Dreadnought, and then freecasting said big card
    - Alternatively, you win by sticking a Dreadnought and swinging twice

    MossNought's big card was Protean Hulk (inspired by the recently banned Flash combo). Rise of the Eldrazi came out a few years later, bringing an even bigger, badder, instant-winnier card. Though I'd quit the game by this point, Nightmare re-popularized the deck as Aeon Bridge, nixing Hulk for Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Emrakul has many advantages over the Hulk combo--namely, 1) fewer dead draws, 2) no dependencies, 3) synergy with Show and Tell.

    Mosswort Bridge's Hideaway ability has a 30% chance of randomly finding Emrakul in a 50-card deck. If you reduce the number of Emrakuls by 1, that probability drops to 22.5%. Therefore, it's important to play all 4. Although ideally you stack the top of your library with Brainstorm, Ponder, or Lim-Dûl's Vault first, blindly dropping Mosswort Bridge isn't a bad play. In addition to Emrakul, you can hide a second Dreadnought, Stifle, or phasing card to help preserve or protect your first Dreadnought. In the list I've posted, that bolsters your probability of finding some useful card to ~70% with no prior setup.

    Though Emrakul is the primary win condition, plan B (Dreadnought beatdown) can be significantly easier to pull off because it only requires one other card and two lands. Unfortunately, it gives the opponent multiple turns to respond, and Dreadnought is more fragile than ever; Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Krosan Grip, Abrupt Decay, and Fatal Push all make quick work of it. Abrupt Decay in particular sees a lot of maindeck play now and I felt it warranted special care--thus the phasers, which can either save Dreadnought when it first enters the battlefield, or counter any targeted removal spell (sans Krosan Grip) by causing them to fizzle.

    The central combo only occupies 12 slots, 4 of which double as lands, leaving a lot of room in deck design. Traditionally Blue has been the color of choice because it offers the best library manipulation and protection. You can go off turn 3 at the earliest, and more commonly by turn 4 or 5, so stalling decks with faster clocks is crucial. Green is also necessary for Mosswort Bridge, and offers some solid creature & land tutoring effects. Black offers the strongest tutor (LDV) which can find any piece of the combo, as well as multiple pieces at the same time. White is less explored, though I could imagine a more fair creature-based shell working well (Knight of the Reliquary can tutor for Mosswort Bridge as well as quickly build up to the 10 power needed to to activate its ability), or splashing for control elements (StP/Terminus) to help deal with aggro.

    Here I'm opting for more of a control shell, not deviating too far from previous builds. MossNought used to include Tarmogoyf for threat diversity, but today's meta seems too creature-dense and especially DRS-dense for Tarmogoyf to do much on its own. With a pure control shell, we can either hinder the opponent long enough to craft a well-protected combo, or combo more explosively whenever the opponent overextends. Now I'll go through some of the less obvious card choices:

    - Stifle is fairly obvious--it is highly synergistic with Phyrexian Dreadnought--but I also want to call out that it's probably the best card in the deck. I say this because it can function as a combo piece, protection (against Wasteland), or disruption, making it extraordinarily versatile and always a good draw.
    - Lim-Dûl's Vault is a powerful tutor effect and has always been a staple in this deck. LDV can find multiple target cards with high consistency (though I don't know the exact math), turning a 3-card combo into a 2-card or even 1-card setup. It also allows us to dig for specific answers later in the game.
    - Vision Charm and Reality Ripple provide phasing effects primarily for Dreadnought. Phasing, like Stifle, can help dodge Dreadnought's ETB ability. Unlike Stifle, they can't really be used to disrupt the opponent. However, they can be used to protect Dreadnought (e.g. phasing out in response to removal); Reality Ripple, though slightly more expensive, can also save Mosswort Bridge from land destruction without retriggering its Hideaway ability.
    - Jace, the Mind Sculptor is library manipulation + card advantage, as well as an alternate win condition in slow match-ups. Can be hard to keep alive vs. most decks since we don't have too many blockers, so I'm not sold on it yet.
    - Devastation Tide can help reset board state if you're getting overwhelmed or need to remove some hate effects before going off. LDV + all the library manipulation effects make it feasible to dig for. I want to try Terminus instead, but the land base is already fragile and not super consistent as is.
    - Counterbalance is still experimental, but seems promising so far. Even without Top, the mana curve of this deck means that it's usually an asymmetric Chalice for 0 or 1, and we play enough manipulation effects that we often get to choose. It's also nice for baiting out Abrupt Decay pre-combo.
    - Snapcaster Mage is the most tentative spot. My logic for including them was "extra Stifle/Thoughtseize/Brainstorm", though in practice they are feeling clunky.
    - Show and Tell is in the sideboard because I don't like how many dead hands it creates. Unlike Dreadnought or Stifle, which are useful in many situations, it can only be played with Emrakul in hand as well. Getting Emrakul in hand is anti-synergistic with the Mosswort Bridge combo. I could see this working better if there were more than 4 targets, but then we are moving towards Sneak and Show. I do like SnT in the sideboard because it bypasses a lot of Dreadnought hate that people will tend to board in--the only common shared vulnerability is Karakas.


    Some other cards under consideration:

    - Isochron Scepter works well with a lot of the instants in this deck. LDV-imprinted Scepter + Counterbalance seems like a mean lock (though still dies to Abrupt Decay).
    - Sylvan Library similar to Brainstorm-on-a-stick or Jace, allows you to dig deeper into your library and facilitates Hideaway.
    - Living Wish--I like this better than Wordly Tutor or Crop Rotation because a) it's not card disadvantage, b) it can fetch either Dreadnought or Mosswort Bridge, and c) provides some protection against Surgical Extraction on Dreadnought, which could be a big problem for this deck.
    - Knight of the Reliquary--Mentioned this before as an alternate shell; I think it's ability to provide bulk and tutor for Mosswort is really cool. Paired with some other beaters/hatebears, I could see this supplementing or even replacing the Dreadnought part of the combo.
    - Trinket Mage + Engineered Explosives, Academy Ruins, Amulet of Vigor, maindeck Pithing Needle, etc.
    Last edited by iOWN; 10-27-2017 at 01:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggl3s
    Ya, your such an amazing player iOwn (should be changed to iPwn FTW) you surpass me with your amazing chalice 1 skillzorz

  2. #2

    Re: MossNought

    Cool deck!

    Will try it out. But I will probably play 2 Pithing Needles instead of the snapcasters, and maybe something else than the CB's.

    Needle's for wasteland (or other stalling purposes) and instead of the CB's, you can maybe pull 2 tombstalkers?

  3. #3
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    Re: MossNought

    Why didn't you just posted on the existing thread? I mean, it's neither a new deck, nor any new tech or shell.

    I really like the idea of the deck. Just throwing out some untested ideas:

    Maybe Volrath's Shapeshifter could fit into this deck as it combos well with Phyrexian Dreadnought.

    That alone is probably not really worth it, but if we could find some other big creature (instead of Emrakul), which stays in the graveyard, it's worth a consideration.

    I also like Torpor Orb better than Stifle, because it's no card disadvantage and it also disrupts some decks.

    Scroll Rack works well with the idea, too.

    Also Cloudform came to mind, but it really only works with Nought and needs setup, which is not worth it.

    Adding white offers Hushwing Gryff and Tocatli Honor Guard for Nought.

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    Re: MossNought

    Seems a bit inconsistent and slow, with built in color confusion (large commitment to black for 10 cards, counting SB). Wasteland is noticeably absent...and we're looking at a BUG list without DRS. No Delve creatures is however correct (Emrakul shuffles off yard).

    Let's look past the fact that Doomsday/Shelldock is probably just better; is there a way to minimize the jank draws (Emrakul/Mosswort)? If keeping the black, are you supposed to begin brewing around DRS, Confidant & Mirri's Guile (or potentially Search for Azcanta)? Can black be cut for Crop Rotation/Worldly Tutor and permission (Daze/Wasteland)? Are you supposed to be maximizing the cheese with playsets of SnT/Dreadnought/Mosswart/Emmy all main?

    In terms of generating the most unique value path, within a framework of good legacy cards, I think you might want to be looking at ideas like Nissa, Vital Force (note the +1 untap), Ramunap Excavator + Wasteland (late game ideas of Wasteland own Mosswart, replay it and keep chumming for a win or just more value). There are definitely black cards that keep recurring Dreadnoughts (Liliana, Heretical Healer, Liliana, the Last Hope, and Meren of Clan Nel Toth), but at that point I think you just save slots and go on the Shelldock/Doomsday plan, dropping Dreadnought stuff.

    For a U/G approach, I'd probably start around:
    4x Brainstorm
    4x FoW
    4x Stifle
    4x Daze
    2x Worldly Tutor
    2x Crop Rotation
    2x Trickbind
    1x GSZ
    3x Ponder

    4x Dreadnought
    4x DRS
    1x Emrakul
    1x Ramunap Excavator
    2x SCM

    2x Nissa, Vital Force

    4x Wasteland
    1x Island
    1x Forest
    3x Tropical Island
    1x Mosswort Bridge
    8x Fetch
    1x Bojuka Bog (??)
    1x Ghost Quarter (??)

    I guess you could also run 2x Grove and 2-3x P-Fire in there for some interaction, but it's a bit harder to generate card advantage by discarding P-Fire with UG. With a list like this it's probably also fine to run the gentleman's Greater Good to live the dream and turn Dreadnought into a ~quad-Ancestral.

  5. #5

    Re: MossNought

    So a while ago someone thought to combine reanimator with lands and I think that might work here because adding crop rotation to a deck that wants to Mosswort sounds like a good idea. Here's Ultimate Hybrid: DarkMossNought

    4 Crop Rotation
    4 Eater of Days
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Torpor Orb
    4 Vampire Hexmage
    4 Emrakul the Aeons Torn
    4 Abrupt Decay
    4 Sylvan Library
    4 Lotus Petal

    2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4 Byou
    4 Ancient Tomb
    2 Karakas
    4 Mosswort Bridge
    4 Dark Depths
    4 Thespian's Stage

    I wasn't going to post it because I drew it up as a thought experiment (As it is my lot in life to see which legacy deck is the best home for the same 16 cards I've been playing since 2010 (Dreadnought, Illusionary Mask, Torpor Orb, Eater of Days)) but then...it worked.

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    Re: MossNought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    So a while ago someone thought to combine reanimator with lands and I think that might work here because adding crop rotation to a deck that wants to Mosswort sounds like a good idea. Here's Ultimate Hybrid: DarkMossNought

    4 Crop Rotation
    4 Eater of Days
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Torpor Orb
    4 Vampire Hexmage
    4 Emrakul the Aeons Torn
    4 Abrupt Decay
    4 Sylvan Library
    4 Lotus Petal

    2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4 Byou
    4 Ancient Tomb
    2 Karakas
    4 Mosswort Bridge
    4 Dark Depths
    4 Thespian's Stage

    I wasn't going to post it because I drew it up as a thought experiment (As it is my lot in life to see which legacy deck is the best home for the same 16 cards I've been playing since 2010 (Dreadnought, Illusionary Mask, Torpor Orb, Eater of Days)) but then...it worked.
    So, where's the Mask in your list?

    Anyway, add Mirage Mirror to combo with Dark Depths AND Dreadnought (gets around its trigger at least)!

  7. #7

    Re: MossNought

    Quote Originally Posted by sco0ter View Post
    So, where's the Mask in your list?

    Anyway, add Mirage Mirror to combo with Dark Depths AND Dreadnought (gets around its trigger at least)!
    It's right here

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    Re: MossNought

    Reanimator and Dreadnought cards will always work better together than Dreadnought and Depths; especially when you're trying to free-cast a large cmc creature. Hexmage is a Chalice killer as far as Dreadnought is concerned, but your list barely uses the 1 cmc slot @FourDogs. Mosswart Bridge accomplishes little in the list you've provided; you're doing all this work to undercost a 4 drop (still need Torpor Orb in play) with Mosswort?

  9. #9
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    Re: MossNought

    Quote Originally Posted by Xod View Post
    Cool deck!

    Will try it out. But I will probably play 2 Pithing Needles instead of the snapcasters, and maybe something else than the CB's.

    Needle's for wasteland (or other stalling purposes) and instead of the CB's, you can maybe pull 2 tombstalkers?
    Tombstalker seems good; double black might require some reworking of the mana base, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by sco0ter View Post
    Why didn't you just posted on the existing thread? I mean, it's neither a new deck, nor any new tech or shell.

    ...

    I also like Torpor Orb better than Stifle, because it's no card disadvantage and it also disrupts some decks.
    Adding white offers Hushwing Gryff and Tocatli Honor Guard for Nought.
    A few reasons...

    - The original MossNought thread is archived
    - Aeon Bridge has been inactive for 6 years and the discussions/initial post are pretty dated at this point
    - There is plenty of new tech--phasing effects, Miracle synergy with all the library manipulation effects, MD Counterbalance/Jace and much more emphasis in the gameplan on control/stabilization--more new tech than Aeon Bridge had when it split off from the MossNought thread (+4 Emrakul, which was a brand new card and strictly better than Hulk, and +4 Show and Tell, which had been discussed before but was underwhelming with Hulk combo)

    Torpor Orb will often be more card disadvantage than Stifle, if you consider that half the time Stifle is either protecting your lands/destroying an opponent's. Torpor Orb only beats Stifle on card advantage if you follow it with multiple Dreadnoughts, which is a narrow use case. That said, I do think Hushwing Gryff could fit nicely into an aggro-control shell, because the 2-power + Flying + Flash are all huge additional benefits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Let's look past the fact that Doomsday/Shelldock is probably just better; is there a way to minimize the jank draws (Emrakul/Mosswort)? If keeping the black, are you supposed to begin brewing around DRS, Confidant & Mirri's Guile (or potentially Search for Azcanta)? Can black be cut for Crop Rotation/Worldly Tutor and permission (Daze/Wasteland)? Are you supposed to be maximizing the cheese with playsets of SnT/Dreadnought/Mosswart/Emmy all main?

    In terms of generating the most unique value path, within a framework of good legacy cards, I think you might want to be looking at ideas like Nissa, Vital Force (note the +1 untap), Ramunap Excavator + Wasteland (late game ideas of Wasteland own Mosswart, replay it and keep chumming for a win or just more value). There are definitely black cards that keep recurring Dreadnoughts (Liliana, Heretical Healer, Liliana, the Last Hope, and Meren of Clan Nel Toth), but at that point I think you just save slots and go on the Shelldock/Doomsday plan, dropping Dreadnought stuff.
    Doomsday/Shelldock seems worse to me in a control shell. Doomsday has much tighter land requirements, costs more life than LDV (which can also set up the combo quite easily), and only gives you one chance to make it work. The nice thing about the MossNought shell is that it's resilient, and you don't lose just because somebody StPs your Nought or Wastes your Mosswort Bridge. Doomsday/Shelldock goes hand in hand with Tendrils, but then we are talking about an entirely strategy.

    Mosswort Bridge isn't a horrible draw. It's half of your combo. At worst, it's a shitty Forest. In most cases, you can play it without any setup and have a 70% chance of finding either Emrakul or some card that makes Dreadnought stick. With Brainstorm/Ponder/LDV in hand, you have an even better chance of finding Emrakul. More shots on goal is not a bad thing, and though it's a turn slower than most lands, it's still a land. My reasoning behind keeping playsets of Emrakul/Bridge/Dreadnought but not SnT is detailed in the OP.

    Nissa looks solid; my only concern is that the untapping effect doesn't accelerate the combo (since she comes out turn 5 at the earliest) and while it provides a way to combo around Wasteland, hitting 5 mana against a deck running 4x Wasteland could take a very long time.

    Greater Good is a fun idea but would require heavy retooling of the deck... would probably benefit from some other cheap, big creatures and mana accelerants?

    Crop Rotation and Worldly Tutor have been tested in previous iterations of this deck. I generally dislike them because while they add a lot of consistency to the combo, they are both card disadvantage and narrow in use. Sacrificing control/good hands for combo consistency is iffy when your combo is so easy to disrupt (and not winning on turns 1-2). Crop Rotation can grab Mosswort Bridge at the end of an opponent's turn, but unless you have Brainstorm + Emrakul or another tutor in your hand, you're likely not going to hit your combo anyways. Now, the Dark Depths + Thespian Stage/Mirage Mirror combo does seem like it could fit here, and makes Crop Rotation/Living Wish more enticing. Knights of the Reliquary also helps tie the two combos together.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggl3s
    Ya, your such an amazing player iOwn (should be changed to iPwn FTW) you surpass me with your amazing chalice 1 skillzorz

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