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Thread: GB Tron in Legacy?

  1. #1

    GB Tron in Legacy?

    Some months ago Jeff Hoogland posted this on GatheringMagic reporting his alleged success in running a Modern Tron port into Legacy. I checked some of his streams after this article and 3-2 or 4-1 results were indeed pretty common. His most recent list is the one that follows:


    1 Eye of Ugin
    4 Bayou
    4 Urza's Power Plant
    1 Forest
    4 Urza's Mine
    1 Karakas
    1 Blooming Marsh
    4 Urza's Tower

    4 Ancient Stirrings
    4 Expedition Map
    2 Wurmcoil Engine
    1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
    2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
    1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
    4 Sylvan Scrying
    4 Karn Liberated
    2 Collective Brutality
    2 Relic of Progenitus
    2 Toxic Deluge
    4 Chromatic Star
    4 Chromatic Sphere
    3 Oblivion Stone
    1 Thought-Knot Seer

    SB:

    3 Thoughtseize
    1 Seal of Primordium
    3 Thorn of Amethyst
    4 Mindbreak Trap
    1 Oblivion Stone
    3 Pithing Needle


    He briefly comments the upsides this would have when compared with 12-post (the other big mana archetype we have access here in legacy): the main argument here is that a Karn on turn 3 is sufficiently powerful for Legacy, and this isn't a possible play with 12-post; post, on the other hand, has access to a lot more mana later in the game, and is probably less affected by LD than Tron is. Well, I've left magic for some good 6 years and I'm returning now, would this pile be actually playable? What are your thoughts on this subject? I'm sorry if there's another post in the forums regarding this article, I tried to search for it but couldn't find anything. Thanks for the input, folks.

  2. #2

    Re: GB Tron in Legacy?

    Let's compare it to Modern.

    You gain: Karakas, Eye of Ugin, Toxic Deluge.
    You lose: Everyone plays Wasteland, and burn runs Price of Progress. Tempo decks are a thing here.

    Yeah, I don't think its the best option.

  3. #3

    Re: GB Tron in Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    Let's compare it to Modern.

    You gain: Karakas, Eye of Ugin, Toxic Deluge.
    You lose: Everyone plays Wasteland, and burn runs Price of Progress. Tempo decks are a thing here.

    Yeah, I don't think its the best option.
    Although Wasteland is commonplace, Hoogland provides some arguments that the deck is still playable. This thread on Reddit provides a lot of interesting discussion for added background.

  4. #4

    Re: GB Tron in Legacy?

    Wasteland is a real issue, however, the biggest problem is Tempo. T3 Karn is great, but how do you resolve that when Delver is beating you, Leo just came down, and they have Force/Daze backup?

    How do you beat combo, which is faster?

    Yeah, you'll crush midrange and Nic Fit, and maybe DnT, but Burn, Combo, and Tempo are pretty much auto losses, not really seeing that as a positive. I mean, Karn on T3 is great, but I could just cast Vindicate and get rid of any permanent on turn 3 (or even 2) without all the rigamorale involved here.

    EDIT: I'm not trying to be mean, I like bad decks, but this is slower than the fast stuff, doesn't pack any disruption (2x CB does not count in any meaningful way) and it's worst matchup from Modern (Burn) gets significantly worse.

  5. #5
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    Re: GB Tron in Legacy?

    I've watched a lot of his videos as well, he's won through wastelands before, as well as blood moon. However, there's also another stream that he mentioned while it's fun, and can beat the other fair decks, it just loses to Delver and Storm, which is a big portion of the meta.

    However should that really stop you? If you're playing the deck to have fun, with low cost on entry, then it's a pretty good option, specially if you see a lot of fair and midrange decks. proxy it up, if you enjoy it then buy into it, its pretty cheap after all. Then you can just start doing "Just Tron things".
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  6. #6
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    Re: GB Tron in Legacy?

    The only benefit to Tron lands over Cloudpost is that the Tron lands don't come into play tapped, which becomes less relevant when you run Candelabra.

    On the other hand, Tron requires that you assemble three separate lands before you get the payoff. With Post, you only need to assemble a Post + other piece to get immediate payoff.

    Post is also much more resilient against Wasteland. A single Wasteland nullifies the three card combo of Tron. Wasteland is still brutal against Post, but it's not nearly as devastating.

    Post is much easier to assemble, more resilient, and has the ability to make much more mana.

    The style of deck still remains the same. See the Turbo Eldrazi and Big Eldrazi threads. The only difference is that Post is simply more powerful and better positioned for Legacy than Tron.
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  7. #7

    Re: GB Tron in Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    Wasteland is a real issue, however, the biggest problem is Tempo. T3 Karn is great, but how do you resolve that when Delver is beating you, Leo just came down, and they have Force/Daze backup?

    How do you beat combo, which is faster?

    Yeah, you'll crush midrange and Nic Fit, and maybe DnT, but Burn, Combo, and Tempo are pretty much auto losses, not really seeing that as a positive. I mean, Karn on T3 is great, but I could just cast Vindicate and get rid of any permanent on turn 3 (or even 2) without all the rigamorale involved here.

    EDIT: I'm not trying to be mean, I like bad decks, but this is slower than the fast stuff, doesn't pack any disruption (2x CB does not count in any meaningful way) and it's worst matchup from Modern (Burn) gets significantly worse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore1 View Post
    I've watched a lot of his videos as well, he's won through wastelands before, as well as blood moon. However, there's also another stream that he mentioned while it's fun, and can beat the other fair decks, it just loses to Delver and Storm, which is a big portion of the meta.

    However should that really stop you? If you're playing the deck to have fun, with low cost on entry, then it's a pretty good option, specially if you see a lot of fair and midrange decks. proxy it up, if you enjoy it then buy into it, its pretty cheap after all. Then you can just start doing "Just Tron things".
    Yeah, that tempo/combo argument is pretty strong indeed. Best thing to do should be to abandon all hope in Delver MUs and sideboard heavily against storm and just hope you don't hit your bad matchups, modern style. But yeah, what attracted me to this deck was the low price tag (tbh it's the lowest price tag possible since I already own the modern version of it). Looking at the 5 DTBs (I'm basing it off the DTB list in this forum) it should be a fair game vs Czech Pile and D&T (sort of), kinda bad against Delver and ANT and pretty decent vs Elves (or am I just way off here?). Doesn't look THAT bad; I also have no idea if 12-post matchups fare better in this meta either.

  8. #8

    Re: GB Tron in Legacy?

    How is GB Tron going to do well in Legacy when it can't even do well in Modern, a lower level of power format?

    I tried to build GB Tron in Legacy and after playing it in a few leagues I came to the conclusion that it's just an inferior ramp deck compared to both traditional 12post with the blue/green manabase and the artifact-ramp based Post / Eldrazi deck. Both of those decks actually have disruption and/or countermagic whereas GB Tron is just like a slow, worse combo deck that is trying to combo with ramp and fatties with little disruption or backup.

    And yeah, there's also the Wasteland problem. Eldrazi Ramp tries to mitigate this issue by also using artifact-based ramp along side the 12post mana and tombs/cities.
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  9. #9

    Re: GB Tron in Legacy?

    No, its just bad, you are much more weaker to wasteland than post, like MUCH more, and post decks already have a hard time to face wasteland decks.
    In this port it is almost the same as to get any modern deck and try to play on legacy the way it is, its additions don't make even close up to what legacy requires you to do. Karn on T3 isn't even that great on legacy, on T3 decks that aren't interacting T1 or T2, are doing much more broken stuff, usually killing you (Storm, SnT, Elves, Turbo Depths....) Post decks have disruption or counterspells like said before, to ensure you get to later turns, this deck doesn't.

    Jeff is playing like a tier 4 deck, and he does some results because he plays well and some opponents of him didn't, but he usually likes playing suboptimal decks.

  10. #10
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    Re: GB Tron in Legacy?

    I'm typically packing Wastelands, Sink Holes and Vindicates.
    I'd be glad to see ol' tronny boy across from me..
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  11. #11
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    Re: GB Tron in Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post

    ...

    Post is also much more resilient against Wasteland. A single Wasteland nullifies the three card combo of Tron. Wasteland is still brutal against Post, but it's not nearly as devastating.

    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by MGB View Post

    ...
    And yeah, there's also the Wasteland problem. Eldrazi Ramp tries to mitigate this issue by also using artifact-based ramp along side the 12post mana and tombs/cities.
    Wasteland is undoubtedly a problem for land-based ramp decks in Legacy, but players of these decks know it and construct their decks accordingly. Big Eldrazi decks have mana rocks as additional ramp, and based Cloudpost decks have maindeck Pithing Needle and Crop Rotation to protect their manabase. Jeff's deck has nothing of the sort, and perhaps could be constructed more robustly.

  12. #12
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    Re: GB Tron in Legacy?

    The reason to play 12 post was miracles. Miracles no longer is a boogeyman. Why play a deck that, while maybe an improvement, can't face its reason to be played in the first place?

    Sure you can get wins as an unknown, but as an archetype it doesn't match up against the right decks to be a consideration.
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