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Thread: What's wrong with Ravager Shops in Legacy?

  1. #41
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    Re: What's wrong with Ravager Shops in Legacy?

    @DiceBox what sequence of plays, particularly early in a game make a 3/2 discounter profitable in legacy? If turn 1, you're down to 4 cards or fewer potentially cast off a City. Doesn't work well after an actual Sphere is deployed (Thorn is fine). Optimal is x=1 Chalice off not-City into turn 2 Inspector? I don't see the payoff from this creature being worth the risk of mid-late game topdecking; the window where it's genuinely helping seems like it'd be pretty narrow and all-in.

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    Re: What's wrong with Ravager Shops in Legacy?

    It's main use I feel would be in unbalancing effects such as Sphere of Resistance. A Tempo style of deck such as one Ravager is normally employed in would benefit from not hamstringing itself.

    That said, my original post holds my most current views, this is not a Legacy viable deck.
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  3. #43
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    Re: What's wrong with Ravager Shops in Legacy?

    The discount effect is better in an Affinity style deck with lots of one and two mana creatures/artifacts, such as Vault Skirge, Cranial Plating, most of the cast found in the Vintage Shops deck, etc. Although, I think Etherium Sculptor is likely better.

    The point here is that I believe the Ravager Aggro plan makes more sense in an Affinity shell than in a Stompy shell. I'd still run Ancient Tomb and Chalice, but I'd build the deck more towards an Affinity approach with artifact lands, Mox Opal, etc.

    Legacy cannot make a stompy-esque Ravager Aggro deck work because it lacks the mana that makes it work in Vintage. Eldrazi is the better stompy deck in Legacy.
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  4. #44
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    Re: What's wrong with Ravager Shops in Legacy?


  5. #45
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    Re: What's wrong with Ravager Shops in Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
    Hmm, that's a rather beautiful list (though he probably did benefit a lot of the rogue factor vs. non-Vintage players in the field). Mono-Brown definitely cuts down on the traditional consistency problems Affinity has. Surprising to see Mishra's Factory over Inkmoth Nexus but I suppose Factory's sheer size particularly on the defense could theoretically be more important than the easy Ravager kills off Inkmoth. Definitely seems like the deck works off the one-sided Thorn and Lodestone in addition to Chalice though. The big advantage here over Eldrazi seems to be that all the mana can be used to cast Chalice/Thorn at 1 and indeed, the overall access to the artifact hate spheres. One of the sleekest curves ever but Walking Ballista, Hangarback and Inventor's Fair cut down on the potential flood issues, and the mana denial suite rounded out with Wasteland. One downside is that those are basically all Chalice at 1s; the deck is quite hurt if it ever tries to play Chalice at 0 or 2 and it seems unlikely that you'd generally be able to produce enough mana for Chalice at 3.

  6. #46

    Re: What's wrong with Ravager Shops in Legacy?

    a friend plays tezzerator at locals.

    Runs chalice, lodestone, fow, sol lands, mox diamond and thoptersword combo.

    Similar to this list.

  7. #47

    Re: What's wrong with Ravager Shops in Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by compacta_d View Post
    a friend plays tezzerator at locals.

    Runs chalice, lodestone, fow, sol lands, mox diamond and thoptersword combo.

    Similar to this list.
    Similar = they both play artifacts?
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  8. #48
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    Re: What's wrong with Ravager Shops in Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    (though he probably did benefit a lot of the rogue factor vs. non-Vintage players in the field)
    For sure. The fact that Null Rod/Stony Silence isn't really a presence in Legacy is a pretty big opening for these decks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Surprising to see Mishra's Factory over Inkmoth Nexus but I suppose Factory's sheer size particularly on the defense could theoretically be more important than the easy Ravager kills off Inkmoth.
    Another note: without Cranial Plating, Inkmoth is slightly less good.

  9. #49

    Re: What's wrong with Ravager Shops in Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    Similar = they both play artifacts?
    Similar in that they both go stompy with chalices and lodestone golems/phyrexian revokers.

    minus the tax artifacts/affinity robots, plus planeswalkers basically.

    edit- i do think he has those types of artifacts in the sb for storm etc. But not mained

  10. #50
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    Re: What's wrong with Ravager Shops in Legacy?

    Coloured artifact decks have always had consistency issues in Legacy though. And you miss out on a lot of power if you don't play Sol Lands but instead run Artifact Lands, and it's hard to get enough sources of any given colour for reliable use. Somewhat of a problem with Tezzerator as much as most of the coloured Stompy shells too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
    For sure. The fact that Null Rod/Stony Silence isn't really a presence in Legacy is a pretty big opening for these decks.

    Another note: without Cranial Plating, Inkmoth is slightly less good.
    Not only lacking hate but in general not knowing how to play against/with Modular tricks and Ravager in general. It's a rather tricky card, as is Hangarback and Walking Ballista. Speaking of Cranial though, lacking Cranial Plating also feels like it makes Vault Skirge significantly worse. Without SoFI, Steel Overseer or Ravager, it's a 1-mana 1/1 Lifelink Flier. In a deck with only 9 cards to "turn it on", this feels rather suspect. I get that it helps with Mox Opal but I'm left wondering if it's really the best artifact creature for curve purposes or in general to saturate the curve here... Certainly, the problem with Chalice at 1 causes some issues with Arcbound Worker and it's not clear Worker would be as good as Vault Skirge anyways. Something like Ornithopter could also bear counters rather well too and help turn on Mox Opal earlier though, for instance. Eh, I should probably test the list before I make even obvious-seeming changes.

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    Re: What's wrong with Ravager Shops in Legacy?

    http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/201...run-men-steel/

    MAIN DECK:
    4 Walking Ballista
    2 Lodestone Golem
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    4 Phyrexian Revoker
    4 Steel Overseer
    4 Arcbound Ravager
    4 Vault Skirge
    2 Hangarback Walker
    3 Mox Opal
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Thorn of Amethyst
    4 Chalice of the Void
    2 Karakas
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Mishra's Factory
    2 Inventor's Fair
    4 Wasteland

    SIDEBOARD:
    2 Spellskite
    4 Leyline of the Void
    4 Ensaring Bridge
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    2 Sorceress Spyglasses
    2 Ratchet Bomb
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  12. #52
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    Re: What's wrong with Ravager Shops in Legacy?

    i like this list, to me the real innovation was dropping the artifact lands entirely. i think it's a bit of a trap that i've fallen for with ravager and mox opal. i ran affinity for a while with chalice maindeck and thorns in the sb, and there's no reason they aren't good in a heavy storm meta, which i think it was in frankfurt.
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  13. #53
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    Re: What's wrong with Ravager Shops in Legacy?

    I forgot this thread existed when I posted this last month: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-Ravager-Shops

    My list differs quite a bit from the Frankfurt list, but it is similar enough in concept I suspect there was some convergent evolution going on. I ended up dropping Mox Opal for more lands due to having less cheap artifacts, since I don't run Vault Skirge.
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  14. #54

    Re: What's wrong with Ravager Shops in Legacy?

    I don't know a whole lot about Vintage archetypes these days.

    But from a Legacy perspective I see a MUD deck but lacking Metal Worker; which is an interesting exclusion to me.
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    Re: What's wrong with Ravager Shops in Legacy?

    It's not running Metalworker because it's a tempo deck. You want to limit the amount of cards that have no impact the turn you play them. It's also why you see Petal over Diamond. A one shot is more efficient than a tempo loss.
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  16. #56

    Re: What's wrong with Ravager Shops in Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimhead View Post
    I don't know a whole lot about Vintage archetypes these days.

    But from a Legacy perspective I see a MUD deck but lacking Metal Worker; which is an interesting exclusion to me.
    You see a MUD deck? So you see a deck in which the creature base only contains one three drop (the mentioned Metalworker, which is incidentally a mana accelerant), focuses on 4, 5 and 6 mana plays (Lodestone, Forgemaster, Wurmcoil), and goes up to 8 mana finishers (Ugin). Interesting. I see a deck that runs two four drops at the top of its curve. I mean yeah sure, you can play Ballista or Hangarback for as much mana as you can get, but thats not how the deck plays out. Simply because a deck plays artifacts and Metalworker makes mana by revealing artifacts does not mean that Metalworker helps the game plan of every deck playing artifacts. The two decks have different goals and therefor play different cards. Just like TES plays Rite fo Flame and ANT doesn't or like Manaless Dredge chooses to draw first and regular Dredge wants to play first.

    The way the deck is build means that it runs fine on two mana, perfectly on four and having more than that means starting to be flooded nine times out of ten. The deck runs cards that can use excess mana to minimize the disadvantages of flooding out, but it is not the goal of the deck to have more than four mana available. With a MUD shell on the other hand having less than four mana means being mana screwed nine times out of ten.

  17. #57

    Re: What's wrong with Ravager Shops in Legacy?

    Until Dice (TY Dice) explained this was a tempo deck, I didn't really understand the game-plan at all. Ramping into large Ballistas and Hangarbacks seemed to make sense to me.

    I don't have a whole lot of experience playing Stompy builds - and I also have a hard time understanding why WB is even good without big mana. Even in Lands (which I am quite well experienced in), I've seen it in SBs but don't really get it. I'm here to learn man! :)
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    Re: What's wrong with Ravager Shops in Legacy?

    The trick is not to cast a big Walker (either of them) but to artificially inflate them with Revoker. Using Revoker to eat unnecessary Artifacts and then sacing it to itself to move the counters onto one of the big XX creatures. Then you can either go wide or go direct. You get bonus points for when you have 2 Revoker, a walker and a Ballista. Then shit gets crazy.

    The rest of the deck is built to delay and to hit hard in the early to mid game. You don't want to play long here. Cards like Steel Overseer help with your plan, granting more counters you can abuse. It's also the reason your only looking at 2 Lodestone. 4 mana is two cards you could play otherwise, unless the disruption is important that mana is better spent elsewhere.

    I have done some editing, adding in Smuggler's Copter. I think that is what the deck could abuse alongside Blinkmoth Nexus but I will find out next week.
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  19. #59

    Re: What's wrong with Ravager Shops in Legacy?

    It plays the tempo game but unlike something like delver, most of its weenies have a ton of utility that help it go wide or over the top while being resilient to things like all forms of removal and combat tricks. Its like some stompy/ tempo hybrid.

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    Re: What's wrong with Ravager Shops in Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Revoker
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