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Thread: Punishing Thieves

  1. #121

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    I'm playing a pair of decays in the board, that's what the trop is for. I'm very hesitant to play a list that doesn't have clean answers to counterbalance. If I wasn't playing the trop I would play a basic mountain I think.

  2. #122

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Do you know, i didn't even see those! Makes sense. I'm going to sleeve it up ASAP (probably in a little over a week) and see how we go.

  3. #123

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    The more I play with this counterbalance list, the more I like it. It wins painfully slowly, but it does a pretty good job at stabilizing against a wide variety of decks. Once the meta settles down a bit more, we can get a more optimized build. But I'm liking where I'm at now.

    New cards I'm trying are Azcanta and Tasigur, liking both well enough so far.

  4. #124
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    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by Stryfo View Post
    For those still interested in a Grixis build, I think I've got something:


    3 Dack Fayden
    3 Punishing Fire
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Grove of the Burnwillows
    3 Snapcaster Mage
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Volcanic Island
    2 Island
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Badlands
    1 Swamp
    4 Baleful Strix
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Kolaghan's Command
    1 Diabolic Edict
    2 Thoughtseize
    2 Fatal Push
    2 Counterbalance
    1 To the Slaughter
    1 Toxic Deluge
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    4 Force of Will
    1 Tropical Island
    2 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Ponder

    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Hydroblast
    1 Nihil Spellbomb
    2 Abrupt Decay
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Notion Thief
    1 Firespout
    1 Snapcaster Mage
    1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
    1 Counterbalance
    1 Diabolic Edict


    The Counterbalances are a compact, low cmc way of generating long term advantage in a variety of matchups, allowing for something akin to the life gain of DRS in the late game against lightning bolt decks and functioning as a hatebear-like spell against the combo decks. The addition allows for cutting discard slightly and increasing removal in the main. I wanted another sweeper and I've been very impressed with firespout so far (kills goose while leaving strix around) I think the sideboard could certainly use a little work, as you can tell by the ob nixilis being there, and it's possible that one more finisher should find it's way to the main, but honestly, when we get to the late game against most decks, pfire closes it or Dack ult does, so maybe another finisher is not required.

    This is where I'm at for now and I'm pretty happy with how it plays so far, though I do need to get used to playing with counterbalance, since it adds another dimension to an already complex deck.

    Let me know what you all think, have any of you been fiddling with the deck or is it just me after DRS got the axe?



    P.S. RiP Rise//Fall =(
    It seems that counterbalance replaced Rise//fall: while I understand the points you make for CB (though I don't necessarily agree, because I'm not so positive about the flips), the same could be said about R//F (long term advantage, hatebear, obv not pseudo life gain against burn).

    So my question is: why did you switch to CB? Are there any other downsides about R//F that I'm not aware of?

    Thanks.

    PS (a bit off-topic): I'm a long time player of grixis tezzerator, and I always wanted to jam some PFires to combo with the Dacks, but never found the right manabase to accomodate 3 groves. If anyone wants to help I'll be glad. I'm asking here because those decks shares a difficult manabase and maybe I could find some correlation.
    Ignorance is strength

  5. #125

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Rise // Fall is not really a spell you can ever cast on two, the hymn mode is just too inconsistent on turn two, and it doesn’t stabilize the game most of the time. The Rise half also got a lot worse with the banning of DRS because now instead of 11 or 12 creatures, we play 7, so it’s much harder to set up. Having played a lot of combo myself, the best way to attack combo decks tend to be permanents, which is why I used to run revoker in my board, playing counterbalance is an extension of that philosophy.

  6. #126
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    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Your reasoning about R//F seems legit, and I agree that for slower decks the best way to fight combo is with permanents and some permission backup.

    Still, isn't anything better than CB? I don't like the randomness and the fact that some spells are hard to flip-counter (Natural Order, sneak attack).
    Ignorance is strength

  7. #127

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    counterbalance is random when you drop it, but as the game goes on, it is far from random, and frequently nets far more value than any two mana play should.

  8. #128

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    I played the cb build yesterday. First game I played against miracles, blindflipped snap against explosives for 2. Couldn't be happier about my first game's opponent.

    Second game I played against death And taxes, And though cb was deployed T2 And did nothing all game, it's one of the very few matches cb is bad and it's still a pretty good matchup. When you have 4 brainstorm, 4 ponder, 3 snap and 2 jaces It doesn't seem random at all. Loved this new take on the deck.

  9. #129

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    I just want to throw out there that even though I couldn't play the challenge this weekend, I was crushing leagues during the week. I think the build I have is pretty nuts, there aren't many matchups that feel truly bad (even burn is made much more palatable by cb) and I like a lot of the pieces right now. I might try to find room for a lili the last hope at some point, because I really enjoy playing with that card, but I'm not convinced it's necessary.

    I think that in this current build mana management is extremely important, but it's certainly made easier by the costs I've incorporated into the deck (we aren't trying to cast hymn or anything like that). And it's even more important postboard if you need to bring in green cards. I imagine the mana could be made slightly better by cutting the green board splash, but you lose so much against blade and miracles by doing so that I don't think it's worth it.

  10. #130

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    I saw you dropped the Search for Azcanta for a Firespout in the sideboard. What was your thought process behind that change, and did it work as predicted? Would that be the flex slot for the Liliana, The Last Hope?

  11. #131

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    That slot is pretty flex, yes, I like having the third sweeper for a lot of decks, and I like firespout in particular against RUG Delver, since it kills goose without losing life, and potentially without killing your own strixes. The Azcanta I really only found to be good in matchups that were very good already, and didn't improve upon them that much.

  12. #132
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    Re: Punishing Thieves

    What about a copy of engineered explosives instead of firespout? It deals with goose as good, but it's also an answer to chalice and other pesky permanents up to 4 cc

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  13. #133

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    @kingtk3 That's actually a change I ended up making a while back, good thinking!

  14. #134

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by Stryfo View Post
    @kingtk3 That's actually a change I ended up making a while back, good thinking!
    I'll admit to not knowing all of the protocols to The Source, but it seems that the first post of this thread (or a subsequent post) is due to chronicle the post-ban version of the deck, it's new tools, and new sideboard strategies.

    Your list is always being tweaked and upgraded, which is sweet , so I realize it's just a snapshot but a helpful find for others who may just now be finding the deck.

    The Counterbalance has been the gassiest of gas for me

  15. #135
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    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by Stryfo View Post
    @kingtk3 That's actually a change I ended up making a while back, good thinking!
    :)

    BTW, I think that a copy of Pernicious deed should be played in the side, maybe instead of Ob Nixilis?

    Against which decks you bring in the 4th Snapcaster from the side? Against combo to recast discard and put a clock?
    Ignorance is strength

  16. #136

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    @SJerusalem:
    You're absolutely right, at the very least I will update the list on the front page, I don't know if I can give the greatest sideboarding advice on every matchup yet, but I'll work on that as well.

    @kingtk3 Refer to the front page shortly =)

  17. #137

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Hi again Chase. Watching the gp coverage now I've realized I need an ensnaring bridge in my 75, I might even switch it for push mb.... (for my local meta anyway), have you tested it?

    With DRS gone there really aren't that many targets for push. Which also means less targets for pfire and I find myself looting away push a lot when I wish it was a pfire. With abrupt decay also mostly gone it seems bridge is in a good spot although I must admit getting our hand down to size is a serious issue with our crazy card draw :-P

    As you know, we have major issues with dark depths and eldrazi stompy.

    You often mention how a card is win more than actually shoring up the bad matchups. You switched bolt for push when DRS disappeared (presumably because of the tarmo-threat?) so I am curious to how you think bridge stacks up.

    And a big +1 to both of you guys for the engineered explosives idea :-D It's just so flexible (which is in fact the real theme of this deck) and can ironacilly never be a flex spot with the current ban list.
    Last edited by Atreju; 08-31-2018 at 08:06 PM.

  18. #138

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    I think that these kinds of decks need at least one one drop removal spell, and with the uptick in Death's Shadow decks I think fatal push is even stronger now than when I switched to push initially, which as you correctly assumed, was for tarmogoyf. I think bridge is certainly a reasonable plan for sneak and depths, but I'm not sure yet how good it is against eldrazi, I'd need to play a few matches with bridge to feel it out. After watching Ark4n play with it a little, I was happy to try it, but I could never figure out what I wanted to cut, and I don't think push is the right call.

    As non-intuitive as it may seem at first glance, it's possible that the thoughtseize in the sideboard could become the bridge, since it largely only comes in against combo decks, a large number of which are soft to bridge. I am not too worried about losing some equity in the storm matchups, since I think they are quite reasonable with the mainboard counterbalances.

    I'll try this in a few leagues, but I'm interested to know what you would cut if it wasn't fatal push.

  19. #139

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Quote Originally Posted by Stryfo View Post
    I'll try this in a few leagues, but I'm interested to know what you would cut if it wasn't fatal push.
    I agree about Thoughtseize. For my local meta, I think hydroblast or pernicious deed.

    For deed, two boardwipes feels like enough most of the time, and the enchantment removal effect is a little awkward with three green enhantment removal cards in the sideboard anyway.

    Bridge is better than hydroblast in the reanimator and sneak matchups and Burn is a lost cause anyway.

    I think Bridge will work against eldrazi. Getting your hand size down to three should be enough most of the time and your removal and strixes should be able to deal with the remaining threats. It's not completely reliable but seems better than pretty much anything else in the deck.

    It also works against prison MUD which is a very hard matchup. With bridge, I can save my counterspells for Ugin without having to fight through sundering titans and lodestone golems.

  20. #140

    Re: Punishing Thieves

    Bumping this as I've been quite enjoying your most recent list.

    Mana is still incredibly greedy though; paired with Back to Basics being a big player right now - leaves me concerned. That's really the biggest issue I've had with commonly played stuff right now, though.

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